but there is actually a race problem with policing

12/14/2015 12:20:53 PM

Quote :

"the threat of being fired or prosecuted holds people accountable, being protested against is an inconvenience for the leadership and only works on the cases that attract lots of attention"

if nothing is done and no one is fired or prosecuted, that's when people protest. its part of being accountable

12/14/2015 12:22:33 PM

Quote :

"but there is actually a race problem with policing"

Police brutality is a societal issue. Putting a race lens on it to further a victim narrative is just how liberalism causes division and shifts blame from government to an abstract scapegoat.

A higher number of black people getting killed by cops is not a "race problem" any more so than black people committing more crime is a "race problem" or black people having less wealth is a "race problem" or fatherless black families is a "race problem". Funny how the race filter only applies to the "activists" when a white cop kills a black person because that supports the "You're a victim, fuck tha police, personal choices don't matter" nonsense that only perpetuates the actual root causes.

If you're going to use the race filter looking at a problem you have to use it the entire time for all relevant factors, you can’t just toggle it on and off where convenient like liberals do to further these victim narratives. Doing so is deliberately ignorant and does more harm than good.

12/14/2015 2:22:07 PM

You're on to something

Quote :

"Police brutality is a societal issue. Putting a race lens on it to further a victim narrative is just how liberalism causes division and shifts blame from government to an abstract scapegoat. "

This is true but that doesn't mean there is no race problem. The race problem just magnifies any other problem.

Racism has left minorities more vulnerable to all of the wealth dependent problems that affect people of all races in this country (healthcare, education, policing, nutrition).


Think about racism like HIV and these other problems as aids.

HIV suppresses your immune system but doesn't kill you unless you expose yourself to opportunistic infections.

Opportunistic infections also kill people without HIV.

12/14/2015 2:33:05 PM

^^ this is an example of one of your posts where you are racist but can't see it

12/14/2015 2:38:08 PM

^he isn't going to operate with that modern definition of racist.

Let me translate:

by racist he means "insensitive to racial concerns" which I agree, is really "passive racism" as opposed to what probably pops into your head first "active racism" (kkk hanging a man for being black)

In today's world, most people use racism the way dtwnral just did.

12/14/2015 2:45:51 PM

Quote :

"This is true but that doesn't mean there is no race problem"

What, specifically, are you referring to then as "the race problem in policing"?

Also, the actual definition of "racist" on these boards is just someone that disagrees with liberals, fyi.

12/14/2015 2:58:16 PM

Quote :

"Police brutality is a societal issue. Putting a race lens on it to further a victim narrative is just how liberalism causes division and shifts blame from government to an abstract scapegoat. "

This isn't even liberalism, we need a new category to describe the victimization glorification not self-responsibility crowd.

Quote :

"nothing is done and no one is fired or prosecuted, that's when people protest. its part of being accountable"

Nothing shows accountability and teaches the police a lesson like burning down, looting, and destroying your own community AM I RITE

12/14/2015 3:10:56 PM

Why do you keep saying "your own community" and lumping looters in with protesters. Unlike civil lawsuits, insurance companies pay for those damages, not the community.

The police who got sued caused much more cost in damages to the "community"

12/14/2015 3:22:48 PM

when Earl pokes holes in your logic you should probably just pack it up and go home

12/14/2015 6:05:03 PM

it's not racism to understand and talk about the fact that certain groups have a higher percentage of children out of wedlock and commit more crimes (regardless of the reason)

it is what it is. why can't it be talked about without being labeled a racist?

12/14/2015 8:20:22 PM

thats what i mean when i say passive racism. talking about the effects of racism without acknowledging the racism that caused them makes you come off as a racist. If we're operating under the assumption that you know about the history of racism, one can only infer that you are racist if you fail to acknowledge its affects.

I do understand that it is not correct to call someone who doesn't think racism has negative affects "a racist" but if you combine that with constant generalizations about race then it becomes hard to defend.

Bottom line: If you're going to group people by race, AND aren't going to acknowledge the effects of racism, be prepared to be called a racist

12/14/2015 8:30:59 PM

Are you talking about white flight, creation of the ghettos, racism in the justice system, or other systemic racism that has put minorities in poor conditions?

What else am I missing?

12/14/2015 9:29:14 PM

Holy crap, more children out of wedlock? The reason for that is directly tied to the disproportionate effect that the drug war has on black communities. You can't lock up all the men in a community and then complain that babies are being born out of wedlock, for goodness sake. I mean, even I realize this, dude

12/14/2015 10:57:13 PM

Burro with the rare #realtalk

12/14/2015 11:17:21 PM

Quote :

" thats what i mean when i say passive racism. talking about the effects of racism without acknowledging the racism that caused them makes you come off as a racist."

LOL, aka, “you aren’t racist, but per liberal protocol I still have to accuse you of being racist somehow because I am incapable of an actual discussion on this subject”. Typical.

Quote :

" If we're operating under the assumption that you know about the history of racism, one can only infer that you are racist if you fail to acknowledge its affects. "

Okay, so if people post “Slavery happened” before every post that mentions race, we won’t be labeled racist? Claiming anyone not paying lip service is a racist. lol liberalism.

Quote :

" Bottom line: If you're going to group people by race, AND aren't going to acknowledge the effects of racism, be prepared to be called a racist"

So we have liberalism, which CONSTANTLY emphasizes the race of victims, and ONLY cares about victims when their race matches their narrative. So let’s be clear who is “grouping people by race”, it all starts with the left.

It takes a special kind of stupid to bring up race at one end of the spectrum “Why did the cops shoot a black guy” and then ignore it at every other level that leads up to the shooting. It is deliberate ignorance. Until liberals aren’t scared to address these root causes, until liberals stop telling minorities they are helpless victims, these factors disproportionately harming minorities will continue to do so leading to cops disproportionately having violent interactions with them.

The worst part is, morons like yourself try to silence actual dialogue on the subject by making baseless accusations of racism as seen above. So not only does liberalism perpetuate the victim mentality in minorities, not only does liberalism turn a blind eye to the root causes of minority problems, it also tries to stop any discussion on how to fix these root problems by deeming anyone outside of the echo chamber a racist.

12/15/2015 10:27:35 AM

Yep. 100% the fault of liberals

12/15/2015 10:46:01 AM

Quote :

"So let’s be clear who is “grouping people by race”, it all starts with the left."

I dunno...you've been referring to "the blacks" quite often around here. Perhaps you're a bit of a liberal yourself?

12/15/2015 11:09:01 AM

Lol, dude is talking about "grouping people", while he constantly talks about that homogenous group of "liberals" that is so prone to do that.

12/15/2015 11:16:14 AM

Quote :

"Holy crap, more children out of wedlock? The reason for that is directly tied to the disproportionate effect that the drug war has on black communities. You can't lock up all the men in a community and then complain that babies are being born out of wedlock, for goodness sake. I mean, even I realize this, dude "

I'm sure the drug war hasn't helped but isn't there a cultural issue (not arbitrary skin color) within ghetto African-American communities in regards to Dad's not stepping up and/or women getting knocked up in non-committal relationships (BTW i fully support PP, free birth control, Obamacare mandates that help reduce this societal issue). I draw this not from stereotypying but from observations of various propaganda transmitted through commercials and billboards targeting African-American fathers to take a more active role.

I don't have the evidence to necessarily show that white fathers are necessarily more active in their children's lives but it does seem the lack of a father figure in many low income socio-economic traditionally black communities leads to more issues among African-American youth (hence the ads). Blaming it on exclusively on the "system" or the war on drugs keeping black dads in jail is as JCE puts it putting on the "liberal" blinders and not fully assessing the situation that would include internal causes.

[Edited on December 15, 2015 at 11:31 AM. Reason : aa]

12/15/2015 11:30:10 AM

Quote :

"I dunno...you've been referring to "the blacks" quite often around here. Perhaps you're a bit of a liberal yourself?"

I'm not a liberal because none of my arguments rely on labeling people as racists.

I've brought up these factors by race because others only look at one small piece of it by race to support some infallible victim nonsense.

12/15/2015 11:46:26 AM

Quote :

"LOL, aka, “you aren’t racist, but per liberal protocol I still have to accuse you of being racist somehow because I am incapable of an actual discussion on this subject”. Typical."

We've had plenty of discussion of the subject. You've been provided with historical context explaining the trends that you see. Its not liberal its just a reasonable inference to assume someone must have a racist agenda if they are avoiding the facts in order to group people by race in regards to a negative trend. Keep in mind, the goal of racist policies was to make it look like whites were indeed superior. If white supremacists could just keep blacks from learning how to read then eventually they would be able to convince people that blacks are illiterate because of their skin color.

You seem to have trouble viewing people as individuals since you keep addressing us as "liberals". Difficulty viewing people as individuals is a red flag of a racist.

Quote :

"Okay, so if people post “Slavery happened” before every post that mentions race, we won’t be labeled racist? Claiming anyone not paying lip service is a racist. lol liberalism. "

No, but if you consider historical context of the subjects you're discussing, you won't make as many racist conclusions to begin with.

Quote :

"So we have liberalism, which CONSTANTLY emphasizes the race of victims, and ONLY cares about victims when their race matches their narrative. So let’s be clear who is “grouping people by race”, it all starts with the left."

Are you talking about the media? Who is the left? Who speaks for the left? I know I talk about victims of inequality all of the time. It just so happens that white people can't be systemically victimized because of their race in this country.

Quote :

"It takes a special kind of stupid to bring up race at one end of the spectrum “Why did the cops shoot a black guy” and then ignore it at every other level that leads up to the shooting."

I never and don't remember anyone else saying that a cop shot someone because they were black and the general dialogue has never been "why did the cops shoot a black guy". Why it happens doesn't matter. Its the punishment of police officers (both white and black) that people are upset about. The only question that is being asked repeatedly in regards to race is "why did the cops get away with killing a black person?"

I think you're being sidetracked by the fact that the victims are black and people are pointing that out. That shouldn't weaken or somehow nullify the claim of injustice in your mind.

Quote :

"It is deliberate ignorance. Until liberals aren’t scared to address these root causes, until liberals stop telling minorities they are helpless victims, these factors disproportionately harming minorities will continue to do so leading to cops disproportionately having violent interactions with them."

Again, I'm not sure who "the liberals" are but most people seem to be addressing the root causes. We want people to be held responsible for crimes even if they are police officers. Half of the Baltimore police officers were black. No one wants to do anything to entire races, they just want to end police impunity.

Quote :

"So not only does liberalism perpetuate the victim mentality in minorities, not only does liberalism turn a blind eye to the root causes of minority problems, it also tries to stop any discussion on how to fix these root problems by deeming anyone outside of the echo chamber a racist."

I'd say Bernie Sanders is a representative of "the left" and his whole thing is about addressing the root causes of these problems. Police reform, gun control, ending the war on drugs, prison reform, healthcare reform, education reform, free higher education are all ways of addressing the root causes of these problems but none of these policies directly focus on "victims of racism". Therefore, you couldn't be more wrong.

Quote :

"ghetto African-American communities in regards to Dad's not stepping up and/or women getting knocked up in non-committal relationships (BTW i fully support PP, free birth control, Obamacare mandates that help reduce this societal issue). I draw this not from stereotypying but from observations of various propaganda transmitted through commercials and billboards targeting African-American fathers to take a more active role."

Its an American cultural problem. Christianity combined with poverty produce this. Its directly correlated with female education. If people have more opportunities and education, they are less likely to want to have children. If they have proper education of sex and access to birth control, they are less likely to have unwanted children. America is failing in both ways.

12/15/2015 12:55:03 PM

Quote :

" We've had plenty of discussion of the subject. You've been provided with historical context explaining the trends that you see. Its not liberal its just a reasonable inference to assume someone must have a racist agenda if they are avoiding the facts in order to group people by race in regards to a negative trend."

Liberal: “Why are cops so racist, they kill black people more”
Me: “Black people commit more violent crime”
= I am racist, because I didn’t explain what we all know already about historic racism?

Quote :

" you won't make as many racist conclusions to begin with."

Please, name one “racist” conclusion I have made.

Quote :

" I'd say Bernie Sanders is a representative of "the left" and his whole thing is about addressing the root causes of these problems. "

If by “addressing” you mean ignoring. Where does Sanders mention fatherless families, teenage pregnancies, or high school graduation? His stance, and every other liberal stance, is “You’re an infallible victim, your personal choices do not matter, here is free shit so you are dependent on the government forever” Convicted felons should be able to vote! The law isn’t fair! Rules aren’t fair! We need free shit for everyone!

12/15/2015 1:54:06 PM

I'm starting to think JCE really is Rush Limbaugh.

12/15/2015 2:13:23 PM

^ and he is spot on.

I must have missed the speech were Bernie and Billary are hyping up personal responsibility. Can someone point me to it? Reforming all the gov't programs isn't gonna do much. And by reform, do you mean give away more things? Healthcare, housing, birth control, education, etc.?

What the hell are you talking about when you say the higher percentage of black males in prison means there are less fathers at home. You can't be serious. All these women are visiting prisons to get knocked up? You think the 'father' was at home helping clean the dishes and help with homework when he was arrested for slinging dope?

Christianity combined with poverty? What does this even mean? Pretty sure Christians don't want their taxes to pay for illegitimate kids more than any one else. So you are saying that it is someone else's fault? Yes you are. Hope you can see that.

The ONLY reason 'uneducated' people have kids is because they won't suffer financially for it. Where do you think the food stamps and free school lunches come from? Nothing is condemned anymore. Hell, Orlando Shaw almost had a TV show. It is celebrated. And who do you think is paying for it? You'd be less likely to have children out of wedlock and a stable household if you had to suffer the consequences if you couldn't afford it.

White and black and any other color. Ain't a race issue.

12/15/2015 8:29:55 PM

Quote :

"g, birth control, "

Free birth control is fiscally conservative. BC means less welfare babies. Don't understand why conservatives never seen to grasp this...

12/15/2015 9:13:58 PM

Their God told them it was wrong.

12/15/2015 9:20:19 PM

^ wrong.

I don't care if you use birth control or not.

Are you saying that not being able to get a free condom is why people get pregnant?

When will someone stand up and say that getting pregnant (or robbing a store, or dropping out of HS) is a personal/family choice. All you ever hear is free this, reform this, take this, have this...never "take responsibility for actions."

I think that may be a major underlying issue. Less welfare means less welfare babies. THAT is fiscally conservative.

[Edited on December 15, 2015 at 9:33 PM. Reason : xd]

12/15/2015 9:31:35 PM

I couldn't agree more.

Pulling out is a choice

12/15/2015 9:41:49 PM

Quote :

"I'm sure the drug war hasn't helped but isn't there a cultural issue (not arbitrary skin color) within ghetto African-American communities in regards to Dad's not stepping up and/or women getting knocked up in non-committal relationships (BTW i fully support PP, free birth control, Obamacare mandates that help reduce this societal issue). I draw this not from stereotypying but from observations of various propaganda transmitted through commercials and billboards targeting African-American fathers to take a more active role."

It's really not. I'm not saying it's exclusively due to the drug war, but a heavy percentage of black males aged 18-40 in the US are somehow involved in the US prison/custodial system; they are either in prison, awaiting trial (which will send them to prison), on probation, or at a work-release program. To decry this as "black males are just shitty fathers" is absurd, as it's pretty hard to "be a father" when you're in prison. And given the drug war's disproportionate impact on the black community, it's obvious why this hits the black community harder.

There's a more insidious element to it, though. By removing such a large portion of the 18-40 year old black male population from society, it changes the demographics for black females in that age range; you know, the age range that has kids. They have less males to choose from, and thus are forced to "compete" much harder than females of other races. One postulated way a black female can "compete" is by being more sexually promiscuous. Another is by eschewing safe sex. So, you take a bunch of women of child-bearing age, essentially encourage them to be more promiscuous while also avoiding safe sex, and it should be absolutely no surprise that they are getting pregnant out of wedlock far more often than their white counterparts. And it's a direct result of the mass incarcerations of black males due to the drug war.

Get enough time to pass and enough men and women stuck in this nasty cycle of absentee-fathers, and it becomes the new normal for them. It's not a "cultural problem," unless you are pointing your finger at the culture that allows the idiotic war on drugs.

12/16/2015 12:41:49 AM

Quote :

"It's really not. I'm not saying it's exclusively due to the drug war, but a heavy percentage of black males aged 18-40 in the US are somehow involved in the US prison/custodial system; they are either in prison, awaiting trial (which will send them to prison), on probation, or at a work-release program. To decry this as "black males are just shitty fathers" is absurd, as it's pretty hard to "be a father" when you're in prison. And given the drug war's disproportionate impact on the black community, it's obvious why this hits the black community harder."

Infallible victims.

If the family isn't "victimized" by the mother's choice to get knocked up, they are victimized by the father's choice to not raise the child.

If the father can't raise his child because he is in jail, he is in jail because of his choice to use drugs.

How do we fix endlessly perpetuate this cycle of poverty? By providing an incentive for responsible decisions free handouts and apologizing for being white.

12/16/2015 9:57:19 AM

spurious chronicle

12/16/2015 11:52:51 AM

Quote :

"Are you saying that not being able to get a free condom is why people get pregnant?"

No, we're saying that a lack of comprehensive sex education is why people get pregnant. And the lack of comprehensive sex education in this country can be traced directly to policy decisions motivated by religious forces.

12/16/2015 11:59:58 AM

Quote :

"And the lack of comprehensive sex education in this country can be traced directly to policy decisions parents not telling their children to wrap it up"

Another example of the infallible victim. You have no power to make individual choices because your sole identity is that of a "victimized class" to liberals.

12/16/2015 12:26:21 PM

you just made an argument in favor of shutting down schools and releasing children into the woods to become feral

I guess it was your choice to be this stupid

[Edited on December 16, 2015 at 1:46 PM. Reason : lol]

12/16/2015 1:45:15 PM

Quote :

"Me: “Black people commit more violent crime” = I am racist, because I didn’t explain what we all know already about historic racism?"

You shouldn't be categorizing peoples actions by race. that statement, on its own, insinuates that being black has something to do with committing violent crime. If you're just going to leave that open, its reasonable to assume you're racist unless you state the single reasonable explanation for a racial statement like that.

Quote :

"If by “addressing” you mean ignoring. Where does Sanders mention fatherless families, teenage pregnancies, or high school graduation? His stance, and every other liberal stance, is “You’re an infallible victim, your personal choices do not matter, here is free shit so you are dependent on the government forever” Convicted felons should be able to vote! The law isn’t fair! Rules aren’t fair! We need free shit for everyone!"

Actually he gets right into that and has complete plans that would instantly mitigate these as well as other problems. Weed legalization and releasing drug prisoners do not involve giving out free shit and actually would save the government a ton of money. Its more about the laws not being helpful to society than it is about them being fair.

Bernie is also for universal pre-k, sex education, and public healthcare. All of these proposals would reduce teenage preganancies and dropout rates.

Quote :

"I must have missed the speech were Bernie and Billary are hyping up personal responsibility. Can someone point me to it? "

Not only does he do it, its the centerpiece of his platform. Theres no better way to hype up personal responsibility than to put emphasis on staying in school, earning a higher education and creating a small business. There are too many barriers that restrict responsible people from doing those things. Eliminating barriers isn't just "giving away free things" and its unfortunate that anyone could view investment an in education in that way.

Quote :

"You'd be less likely to have children out of wedlock and a stable household if you had to suffer the consequences if you couldn't afford it. "

You're free to your own opinions but This is just flat out wrong. Factually incorrect. It couldn't be further from the truth

The countries that have social safety nets in place actually have some of the lowest birth rates and countries with the highest birth rates have a great deal of suffering.

Quote :

" Less welfare means less welfare babies. THAT is fiscally conservative. "

I wonder how your views would change if you actually knew the facts surrounding the topics you are talking about?

Quote :

" If the family isn't "victimized" by the mother's choice to get knocked up, they are victimized by the father's choice to not raise the child. If the father can't raise his child because he is in jail, he is in jail because of his choice to use drugs."

Why do some people make better choices than others? education.
No one is born making good choices. You have to get wisdom from experience or some exterior source.

Quote :

"By providing an incentive for responsible decisions free handouts"

You refer to education as a "handout" even though it is the best incentive for responsible decisions.

12/16/2015 2:22:19 PM

All of these victims have two arms

12/16/2015 2:24:38 PM

Quote :

" You shouldn't be categorizing peoples actions by race. that statement, on its own, insinuates that being black has something to do with committing violent crime. If you're just going to leave that open, its reasonable to assume you're racist unless you state the single reasonable explanation for a racial statement like that. "

You're either oblivious, or deliberately ignoring the context of this discussion in another weak attempt to cry "racism". My entire point is if you are going to consider it by race (see first post of this page) then you have to look at race in other areas. There are other reasons, stemming from historic racism and a lack of wealth, that result in more black people having interactions with cops. These same interactions that the liberal media covers ad nasuem suggesting the problem is racist police.

Quote :

"You refer to education as a "handout" even though it is the best incentive for responsible decisions"

"handouts" was in no way was a reference to education.

Quote :

"Not only does he do it, its the centerpiece of his platform."

LOL

Nowhere on Sander's webpage does he reference anything to do with personal responsibility. He doesn't touch fatherless families or unwed teenage pregnancies. That goes against the victim-narrative that the left is reliant on... because Black Lives only matter to them when a white cop kills them and they can be exploited for political leverage... and if you don't pay lip service to this deceitful, divisive exploitation, then you're a racist!

12/16/2015 2:49:22 PM

I'm all for legalizing weed. That will help a lot of things.

However, I can't get past the idea that the reason women don't use birth control methods of ANY kind is due to the fact that there are a lot of black men locked up. Can you clarify? Are you saying that they get pregnant to try and lock the man down? Very few are in for a life sentence, so there are plenty of young black and Mexican males out in public. Serving a year or two for a weed charge doesn't take you out of the reproductive pool.

And less developed/poor countries have a high birthrate, yes, but that is because so many infants and young children die. They have to keep having babies. I get that. Still don't understand why they would have children when there is a shortage of food and water, but I get the birthrate numbers. Not apples to oranges.

Yes, it is hard to be a father when you're locked up. How about don't get locked up?!

12/16/2015 2:58:02 PM

Quote :

"And the lack of comprehensive sex education in this country can be traced directly to policy decisions parents not telling their children to wrap it up"

You mean parents that came through the same education system, and thus received no sex ed? They're not the best teachers.

12/16/2015 6:40:09 PM

Quote :

"Infallible victims. If the family isn't "victimized" by the mother's choice to get knocked up, they are victimized by the father's choice to not raise the child. If the father can't raise his child because he is in jail, he is in jail because of his choice to use drugs. How do we fix endlessly perpetuate this cycle of poverty? By providing an incentive for responsible decisions free handouts and apologizing for being white."

If you fail to comprehend how the situations that people are in might affect the choices they make, then there's no real helping you, and you should just leave the conversation right now. No one is saying that people aren't ultimately responsible for the choices they make. I presented a reasonable explanation for WHY some people might make choices that seem incredibly stupid to you, and you just dismissed it as "well, they still made stupid choices, fuck them, they deserve what they got."

There's an old adage of "walk a mile in a man's shoes before you judge him," and it applies here. What you are looking at is the end result, and not the entire journey. The end result is certainly the responsibility of the person who makes the choice, but it's startling that one community of people seems to make a set of bad choices far more often than another. There must be something different between the two, and I have postulated a very obvious one, one that is supported by various academics and their research. If you would like to posit something other than "blacks are just stupid and make dumb choices, so fuck them," then be my guest. Or, if you'd like to address what I said without dismissing it as "victim glorification," then, again, join an actual discussion, open your mind to a worldview that might actually be different from yours. Or, continue to wallow in your own ignorance and demand that everyone be judged by the same standards as you have, based solely on your unique and privileged upbringing of being a white male in a society built by white males, and fail to comprehend how someone else could ever possibly have a different experience than you do.

Quote :

"However, I can't get past the idea that the reason women don't use birth control methods of ANY kind is due to the fact that there are a lot of black men locked up. Can you clarify? "

I've already explained it. It's a simple competition thing. Black women have less access to contraception (of all types) for simple economic reasons. This is an indisputable fact. Black women, like other women, also want to have sex. Also, an indisputable fact. With less men in the picture (due to being locked up), black women have to compete harder for a scarcer resource. Sex with a condom is less pleasurable than sex without a condom. What's a great way to compete better for sex? Sex without a condom! Bonus points if you let the dude bust in you! A woman who allows a man to do that is necessarily going to be "more desirable" than a woman who does not.

Quote :

"Yes, it is hard to be a father when you're locked up. How about don't get locked up?!"

Easy to say from your position of having received a good K-12 education, with reasonable access to college and eventual economic opportunities. Now, put yourself in the shoes of a person who lived in a district of nothing but failing, sub-par schools, where, even if you are the valedictorian, most decent schools will overlook you. You're already starting off miles behind your better-educated counterparts. Factor in a police force and justice system that is heavily biased against minorities, and it's harder to "not get locked up." Remember that thing about blacks getting harsher sentences than whites for the same crimes that you wanted to ignore? Would "community service and no jail time" vs "6 months in prison" make a difference in terms of a person "not getting locked up?" Would a police officer being more likely to stop a black person on the street than a white person make any difference in the likelihood of a person being put in prison; simple statistics tells us that it absolutely does.

12/16/2015 8:37:38 PM

Quote :

"These same interactions that the liberal media covers ad nasuem suggesting the problem is racist police."

This thread I made in TSB last week is very relevant to that:

DEA Agent Speaks Out: We Were Told Not to Enforce Drug Laws In Rich Communities
message_topic.aspx?topic=646521

Read it JCE2011.

12/16/2015 11:41:13 PM

why is it the school's responsibility to teach anything other than reading, writing, and arithmetic? Pushing the blame back on the government further reinforces the victim mentality.

Underprivileged women have less access to birth control? What is planned parenthood for?

People go in and out of jail on a daily basis. I do not believe that just because there is a percentage of the population that is in jail on a revolving basis leads to fatherless homes. You get out of jail at 25, have a kid, and DON'T GO BACK. I doubt these women are wanting to have a kid with a life sentence dude, so they don't matter anyways.

All this talk about cops treating black people bad and trolling neighborhoods....yes, I get that there are lot of broken, unstable homes in poor communities, and yes, I was not raised like that, but if you don't commit crimes, it won't matter where you live, for the most part.

12/17/2015 6:18:26 PM

Quote :

"why is it the school's responsibility to teach anything other than reading, writing, and arithmetic? Pushing the blame back on the government further reinforces the victim mentality. Underprivileged women have less access to birth control? What is planned parenthood for? "

Except a large chunk of society would rather pretend that sex is only for married people and their little angel is not sucking the dick of the high school football QB at Young Life camp.

Sure in an IDEAL world we shouldn't have to provide handouts like free condoms or birth control, a disadvantaged couple should be spending that last $5 on condoms instead of a pack of Newports, and people should not be having kids they can't afford.

Realistically, however, a quick economic assessment can easily determine that providing birth control for free is a lot cheaper to society/tax-payer/etc then a welfare baby or the cost of a future criminal grown up in a broken home after mom had to drop out of community college to support the baby from her asshole boyfriend who ended up going to jail for dealing drugs.

Corporations do this all the time. Your insurance company doesn't provide flu shots for free because they are nice people and don't want you getting the sniffles. Duke Energy doesn't provide CFL light bulbs for free because they are passionate about sustainability and being green....

[Edited on December 17, 2015 at 7:03 PM. Reason : k]

12/17/2015 7:02:28 PM

Quote :

"People go in and out of jail on a daily basis. I do not believe that just because there is a percentage of the population that is in jail on a revolving basis leads to fatherless homes."

Then continue to remain ignorant of what is actually happening. If you can't fathom how a system that takes fathers away from their homes might actually affect the children who grow up in that environment, then there's nothing more that can be said to you. "Why would the environment a child grows up in actually affect that child and the decisions he makes later in life?"

Quote :

"I doubt these women are wanting to have a kid with a life sentence dude, so they don't matter anyways."

You don't get it. It's not necessarily that the woman want to have children with the men they are with. They just want companionship, same as you or anybody else. But their choices are more limited, due to the cycle of fatherless homes and the insane drug war and its effects on the minority community. So, in order to attract that companionship, they have to engage in behaviours that put them more at risk of pregnancy.

Quote :

"All this talk about cops treating black people bad and trolling neighborhoods....yes, I get that there are lot of broken, unstable homes in poor communities, and yes, I was not raised like that, but if you don't commit crimes, it won't matter where you live, for the most part."

All fine and dandy, except for this fantastic crime-fighting policy we've had for a while called "broken-windows policing," where even the smallest crimes are treated as the worst thing ever. And when police are trolling minority neighborhoods, who do you think they are more likely to lock up for small crimes? It's even better when there are so many things nowadays that are legislated against, to the point that basically everyone commits a "crime" every single day. Michael Brown, scumbag that he was, was stopped for jaywalking. Freddie Gray committed the oh-so-serious crime of looking a cop in the eye and running the other direction.

And none of this gets into the known problem of criminalizing poverty, where people eventually end up in jail for being unable to pay court fines over small, trivial things, such as parking or speeding tickets. And guess what happens to these people when they go to jail over not being able to pay a speeding ticket? Right, they lose their job. And now have a criminal conviction. Please, tell me how easy it is for a person with minimal job skills to find employment with a criminal conviction.

This situation isn't the cut-and-dry "don't commit crimes and you'll be OK" scenario that you want to see it as. It's more complicated than that.


But you'll just respond with something stupid about "reinforcing the victim" instead of actually trying to understand the problem.

12/19/2015 4:57:34 PM

Quote :

"f this gets into the known problem of criminalizing poverty, where people eventually end up in jail for being unable to pay court fines over small, trivial things, such as parking or speeding tickets. And guess what happens"

Ahhhh so since a person in under privileged, the "man" is holding them them back, or whatever the excuse; they are exempt from rules that all other law abiding citizens must obey.

Laws like having car insurance, a drivers license, working headlights, obeying stop signs. Not to mention for a lot of the faulty equipment or expired license citations the ADA in many situations will drop the charge if you have documentation that the problem is corrected. Many of the outrage " pastor jailed for a broken brake light ticket" were only arrested only after failing to show up in court and ignoring multiple letters to pay the fine or go to court.

Cops need check their privilege and let poor people go for petty crimes. Better yet give they should give them a police escort to the advanced auto parts store where the office can personally install their replacement headlight.

Got It!

12/19/2015 7:08:21 PM

Quote :

"You're either oblivious, or deliberately ignoring the context of this discussion in another weak attempt to cry "racism". My entire point is if you are going to consider it by race (see first post of this page) then you have to look at race in other areas. There are other reasons, stemming from historic racism and a lack of wealth, that result in more black people having interactions with cops. These same interactions that the liberal media covers ad nasuem suggesting the problem is racist police"

I don't think anyone is suggesting cops are shooting unarmed people BECAUSE they are black but rather saying the circumstances cause police brutality to affect blacks at a greater scale. We also are talking about race in terms of the system because ongoing deliberate racism has been documented on several occasions included recent doj investigations of cleveland and furguson. In those departments we have specific evidence of racism.

Quote :

"Nowhere on Sander's webpage does he reference anything to do with personal responsibility. "

Actually the policies emphasized the most are all about personal responsibility but you are probably looking at them as handouts. Asking for livable wages and other workers rights is incentivizing people to work to survive. Thats personal responsibility. The same goes for education, womens rights, racial equality, and lgbt rights. All of these policies are reiterating the idea that if you have personal responsibility, you won't be restricted from success by a rigged system.

Quote :

"And less developed/poor countries have a high birthrate, yes, but that is because so many infants and young children die. They have to keep having babies. I get that. Still don't understand why they would have children when there is a shortage of food and water, but I get the birthrate numbers. Not apples to oranges. "

It is comparable. The trend is still valid when comparing nations that don't have shortages on food water. The more opportunities females have for education, and career, the fewer children they have.

Quote :

"why is it the school's responsibility to teach anything other than reading, writing, and arithmetic? Pushing the blame back on the government further reinforces the victim mentality. "

How can you expect people to have knowledge of certain things if you do not provide it?

Quote :

"but if you don't commit crimes, it won't matter where you live, for the most part."

Why don't you commit crimes? (Real question)

12/19/2015 8:10:27 PM

Quote :

"Ahhhh so since a person in under privileged, the "man" is holding them them back, or whatever the excuse; they are exempt from rules that all other law abiding citizens must obey."

It's not a matter of them not having to obey the same rules and laws. They should have to follow the same laws. It's just that when they do the same thing that you and I do, such as speed, the poor can't afford a lawyer or possibly even the speeding ticket fine itself, like you and I can, so they get thrown in jail. And it snowballs from there. I don't know how we deal with that situation, but you can't pretend like it doesn't exist, because it very clearly does. For all but the most obtuse among us, it's pretty much a given that the small speed bumps in life hit the poor worse than they do the middle class.

12/19/2015 10:27:35 PM

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article50468195.html

12/19/2015 11:15:01 PM

Quote :

" that when they do the same thing that you and I do, such as speed, the poor can't afford a lawyer or possibly even the speeding ticket fine itself, like you and I can, so they get thrown in jail"

I need your lawyer to get me out of paying tickets. I must be missing out on that white privilege!!!!

Everything I've read if they truly can't pay the DA or judge in many munis attempt to work out a deal yet the issue in many of these "sending the pastor to jail for speeding" outrages is they just don't even bother showing for court! I'd be in jail too for this.

The only thing I would agree is that in many jurisdictions the "court cost" aspect has gotten out of control. My last NC ticket was a 50 fine with another 130 for court cost. Honestly I don't understand why counties dont reduce court costs for those that choose to mail-in the fine along with signed admission of guilt rather then clogging up traffic court. One thing I like in Oregon is that the ADA can at or prior to your hearing reduce the ticket by 1/2 depending on circumstances surrounding the violation or the defendants ability to pay.

[Edited on December 21, 2015 at 1:50 AM. Reason : K]

[Edited on December 21, 2015 at 1:51 AM. Reason : K]

12/21/2015 1:49:18 AM