http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/8/white-house-to-offer-new-rules-school-discipline/

Quote :

"It’s part of a larger effort — backed by teachers unions, civil rights advocacy groups and other organizations — to combat the “school-to-prison pipeline,” in which minority students are disproportionately kicked out of school and subsequently end up in the criminal justice system. "

Quote :

"Chief among those negative incentives, Mr. Dunn said, will be that teachers, principals and other school personnel may hesitate to punish a minority student for a particular offense out of fear that they will appear prejudiced or that their actions will result in disproportionate effects on one racial group. Taken to the extreme, such a scenario could lead to even bigger problems, some specialists say. “Eventually, you’ll have disorder in schools. … They either suspend white students for relatively trivial things or they don’t punish black students for behavior that is really disruptive or even violent,” said Hans Bader, a senior attorney at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. “You’re effectively commanding them to have racial quotas” with respect to which students are disciplined and how often. "

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/01/08/Govt-offers-new-approach-to-classroom-discipline

Quote :

"Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."

Quote :

"In American schools, black students without disabilities were more than three times as likely as whites to be expelled or suspended, according to government civil rights data collection from 2011-2012. Although black students made up 15 percent of students in the data collection, they made up more than a third of students suspended once, 44 percent of those suspended more than once and more than a third of students expelled. More than half of students involved in school-related arrests or referred to law enforcement were Hispanic or black, according to the data."

All ill say is the vast majority (more than the majority they state here) of my discipline cases are minorities. I teach at community colleges and universities though, so perhaps they've already been ruined by our racist education system.

Thoughts?



/ibtomgyourearacist
/nopeyourejustaracist

1/9/2014 10:01:30 AM

I can't comment on this thread. Since I'm labelled here has a partisan joke, no matter what I say it will be racist.

1/9/2014 10:07:03 AM

I think that one quote from Holder is very telling.

"Zero tolerance policies (while well intentioned) too often inject the criminal justice system... truancy, smoking, carrying a weapon... these policies became popular post-Columbine... etc."

Well okay, what is the purpose of these rules then (if not to create a quota system)?

Better to address those problems that are more prevalent in minority populations that Holder just laid out. I don't think anyone here can seriously argue that isn't the case, and it isn't their blackness at fault, it's socioeconomic.

(not going to be solved by these rules)

It would probably be a better idea to simply do away with the zero tolerance mess, wait a few years, and see how the statistics level out.

[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 10:19 AM. Reason : -]

1/9/2014 10:15:00 AM

I have lots of responses for this thread... I will respond fully later on once i'm off work, but a couple of things...

1. federal government once again overreaching into local/community/state issues that will no doubt lead to yet another set of rules which will make it even more of a hassle to discipline the students who need it.

2. i don't dispute there is a disproportionately large percentage of minority students in a lot of places who are suspended from school, but this is a much larger issue... just look at the prison population. What are the causes? Racist administrators/teachers? (no.) individual choices/consequences? poverty/culture generated attitudes?

3. this will lead to quotas. quotas are bad.

1/9/2014 11:44:28 AM

Smath, you just can't say #2. #2 possibly indicates that there might be a disproportionate number of minorities that actually deserve their punishments. And that is just wrong. Racist.

1/9/2014 11:51:58 AM

removing police officers from school would be a more effective solution to this real problem

1/9/2014 12:12:14 PM

^^(it's posts like that that cause some people not to take you seriously)

1/9/2014 12:19:44 PM

I never understood why so many minor rule infractions at my high school in Charlotte resulted in 3-day out of school suspension. An example profanity was a 3-day suspension, as was your 5th tardiness to class, or being caught skipping class.

For those from normal families, sure you are going to get the wraith of ones parents. For "at-risk" youth, however, who many times don't want to be at school this is a reward.

I real punishment would have involved being stuck in in-school detention. Now that is a buzz kill.

[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 12:34 PM. Reason : a]

1/9/2014 12:33:27 PM

Never understood why in-school suspension was never used over out-of-school suspension. I got ISS a couple of times in middle school and absolutely hated it. It was so many times worse than being in the most boring classroom.

They should use it more often, and make it very spartan.

1/9/2014 12:43:16 PM

Quote :

"removing police officers from school would be a more effective solution to this real problem"

1/9/2014 12:48:15 PM

Quote :

" just look at the prison population."

Our justice system is undoubtedly systemically racist. That is a huge issue.

As yowilly pointed out, a lot of the problems are socioeconomic.

I also take issue with the Washington Times' description of what "disproportionate impact" means.

This description is wrong:

Quote :

"the administration also declares that schools’ disciplinary policies cannot have a “disparate impact” on one particular group. In plain terms, it means district rules, guidelines and enforcement cannot result in the punishment of more black students than white students for the same offense, for example. With that in mind, school leaders surely will keep a close eye on whether the same number of children from given racial groups are disciplined in equal number and equal measure for the same behavior. “You have to make certain that your school discipline cases match those percentages. If you don’t, you’ll have the feds on your doorstep,” "

Disproportionate impact has nothing to do with make sure that more blacks aren't kicked out than whites. Disproportionate impact means considering how throwing a black student to the wolves might have different results due to socioeconomic factors, than throwing a non-black student to the wolves.

That whole article is terrible, it uses a leading headline, and gather their "information" from a single professor who doesn't seem to really know what he's talking about.

It also doesn't print any of the wording of the rulings, and instead presents its own interpretation of what the guidelines say. It's written more like an op-ed than an actual article.

This is particularly hilarious:

Quote :

"Students who can prove discrimination — such as a black student being suspended for an offense while a white student is given detention for doing the same thing — already have legal recourse and can sue, he said. "

So these poor black students, from uneducated single-parent homes are supposed to have the time and resources to mount a legal battle to fight racism? The NAACP and other rights group have the knowledge, and even THEY don't have the resources to take on every case of a school doing something dumb. This is why the civil rights laws exist. To get organizations to consider fairness so every person doesn't have to jump through hoops for justice.

[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 1:00 PM. Reason : ]

1/9/2014 12:57:53 PM

Quote :

"quote:"removing police officers from school would be a more effective solution to this real problem" "

Police in Texas Schools: 300,000 Arrests, WTF?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/10/1053397/-Police-in-Texas-Schools-300-000-Arrests-WTF
The US schools with their own police
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/09/texas-police-schools
School-based Arrests Criminalize Students and Feed The School to Prison Pipeline
http://www.dignityinschools.org/blog/school-based-arrests-criminalize-students-and-feed-school-prison-pipeline
19 Crazy Things That School Children Are Being Arrested For In America
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/19-crazy-things-that-school-children-are-being-arrested-for-in-america
More Info
http://csgjusticecenter.org/youth/#rpt

Having police officers in schools means that students are arrested for small trivial things that can easily be handled without involving police. When students are arrested and have criminal records, that effects their college and job prospects. 50% of black males and about 40% of white males are arrested by the time they are 23, a lot of these are things at schools that really don't need police involvement.


[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 1:07 PM. Reason : /b]

1/9/2014 1:06:52 PM

^ I haven't read the links, but in SOME schools, they need police officers. In suburban NC, police aren't needed, but i could see inner city schools, where gangs are a real entrenched problems, officers being needed.

1/9/2014 1:18:11 PM

It seems that maybe administrators are relying more upon the police at their schools to handle discipline problems rather than deal with them themselves?

Anecdotally at least, it seems like more and more administrators are becoming less adept at handling difficult discipline problems.

1/9/2014 1:33:17 PM

most schools do not need police officers on campus. also some studies show that the amount of gangs in schools is not related to gang crimes in schools and others show that school-centered approaches are more effective to combat the problem. The "gang epidemic" is a false epidemic (similar to crack babies).
(https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=152089)

Quote :

"It seems that maybe administrators are relying more upon the police at their schools to handle discipline problems rather than deal with them themselves?"

Yes, this is exactly the problem. Some kid acts up and instead of being disciplined for something trivial, they get handed off to the school resource officer.

Quote :

"Anecdotally at least, it seems like more and more administrators are becoming less adept at handling difficult discipline problems."

I don't think its that they are less adept, its that they are so ridiculously risk-averse and in a loss-prevention mentality. They have to pass that kid off to the resource officer, because what if they didn't and then the kid did something?! They could get sued!!


[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 1:52 PM. Reason : .]

1/9/2014 1:48:42 PM

I was coming from the standpoint of administrators who have spent less than 5 minutes in a classroom teaching. Without any classroom time, they don't have the experience with discipline that they should, and now as a principal or asst. principal, the classroom disruptions are being escalated to them, and they just don't know how to handle it.

I def. see your point as well. Our society is too litigious and the administrators are worried what the parents will do.

1/9/2014 2:00:40 PM

and if anyone doesn't believe that discipline operates in loss-prevention mode, just ask any teacher how much time they spend documenting discipline, observed things, and communications

1/9/2014 2:08:19 PM

Quote :

"Yes, this is exactly the problem. Some kid acts up and instead of being disciplined for something trivial, they get handed off to the school resource officer. "

i have literally never seen this happen. resource officers spend less time arresting and more time contributing to the school community. the reality, however, is that schools are the size of small towns, with much less predictable citizens. it is prudent to have at least one officer, especially in high schools.

1/9/2014 2:13:23 PM

you've literally never seen it in your sample size of only what you've seen at only 1 or 2 schools? you've literally never seen it in your sample size of only what you've seen at only 1 or 2 schools.

also, if you've never seen the police resource officer arrest anyone, then why do they need a police resource officer?

[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 2:21 PM. Reason : .]

1/9/2014 2:20:20 PM

you are right. kid is tardy for class, gets arrested. kid says "damn," gets arrested. happens all the time.

i've seen plenty of arrests, but not for petty shit, which was the entire point of your previous post.

[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 2:28 PM. Reason : ]

1/9/2014 2:27:55 PM

Quote :

"you are right. kid is tardy for class, gets arrested. kid says "damn," gets arrested. happens all the time."

see:

Quote :

" Police in Texas Schools: 300,000 Arrests, WTF? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/10/1053397/-Police-in-Texas-Schools-300-000-Arrests-WTF The US schools with their own police http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/09/texas-police-schools School-based Arrests Criminalize Students and Feed The School to Prison Pipeline http://www.dignityinschools.org/blog/school-based-arrests-criminalize-students-and-feed-school-prison-pipeline 19 Crazy Things That School Children Are Being Arrested For In America http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/19-crazy-things-that-school-children-are-being-arrested-for-in-america More Info http://csgjusticecenter.org/youth/#rpt "

In Texas, in a single year, they wrote 300,000 tickets for Class C misdemeanors to children as young as 6. They are arrested for things like being caught with cigarettes, being late, getting into a fight, spraying someone with perfume, burping in class, pouring milk on each other during a squabble, doodling on a desk, throwing paper airplanes, etc... You know, the kind of shit that kids do that they should get in trouble for but not go to jail or get a ticket and criminal record for.

Just because you haven't seen it in your tiny world doesn't mean that its not a real problem.

1/9/2014 2:59:33 PM

Apparently, graduation rates haven't actually been going down.



that doesn't mean that these polices don't put downward pressure on them, but it's also true that minorities are getting more degrees than ever used to.

I'm not sure what caused this shift, but I can believe that a HS degree means less than what it ever did. Just more people getting it means that it means less in a competitive fashion.

We have a problem of creating an "untouchables" class. We do this with public records today, like offender databases. These become illegitimate with the sheer number of people that are put on them.

1/9/2014 4:06:30 PM

Quote :

"In Texas, in a single year, they wrote 300,000 tickets for Class C misdemeanors to children as young as 6. They are arrested for things like being caught with cigarettes, being late, getting into a fight, spraying someone with perfume, burping in class, pouring milk on each other during a squabble, doodling on a desk, throwing paper airplanes, etc... You know, the kind of shit that kids do that they should get in trouble for but not go to jail or get a ticket and criminal record for. Just because you haven't seen it in your tiny world doesn't mean that its not a real problem. "

dude look at your sources. get the fuck out you damn troll. these things aren't even remotely on the radar as being a problem.

1/9/2014 6:40:15 PM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/09/texas-police-schools
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-02-10/features/os-school-arrests-florida-prison-pipeline-20130209_1_school-arrests-disabled-students-juvenile-justice
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-data-show-racial-gaps-in-school-arrests/2012/03/01/gIQApbjvtR_story.html
etc...

god damn you are dumb



[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 8:23 PM. Reason : you should probably give up on your Smath74 screenname and stick to your y0willy0 name]

1/9/2014 8:21:01 PM

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2013/jul/30/dream-defenders/over-12000-school-kids-were-arrested-florida-it-ma/
http://www.wbez.org/getting-bottom-school-arrest-numbers-chicago-105313
http://articles.courant.com/2013-06-21/news/hc-op-anderson-children-arrested-in-school-0623-20130621_1_school-discipline-suspension-and-expulsion-charter-school
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-02-09/news/fl-school-arrests-jail-pipeline-20130209_1_school-arrests-show-disabled-students-school-bus
http://www.examiner.com/article/25-middle-school-students-arrested-for-food-fight-chicago
http://www.vice.com/read/silent-but-deadly-school-cops-arrest-students-for-talking-too-loud-graffiti-andfarting
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christopher-emdin/student-arrests_b_1132874.html
http://www.justicepolicy.org/uploads/justicepolicy/documents/educationunderarrest_fullreport.pdf
http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/maarrest_reportweb.pdf
etc..

god damn y0willy0 is dumb

1/9/2014 8:27:06 PM

still, nothing but random links... mostly questionable websites, with lots of "headline bait" and in no way do they support whatever argument you are trying to make.

you are just blatantly trolling at this point. you are (in a lot of ways) much worst for this website than people like BubbleBobble.

1/9/2014 10:16:32 PM

Go back to Rock Hill, y0willy0

1/9/2014 10:58:28 PM

12 year old
http://wgntv.com/2013/10/17/boy-12-arrested-after-firing-gun-in-school-bathroom/

11 year old
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/24/justice/washington-school-gun-arrest/

i don't mind having officers in school. those officers that do dumb things like the lists above need to be arrested themselves.

also "disproportionately" is not necessarily equal to "unfairly".

1/10/2014 9:51:24 AM

So now I'm myself, A, and Smath74.

What a busy wolf web life I live!

1/10/2014 11:00:50 AM

Yeah, you should stop criticizing yourself, and stop threatening to expose your tww persona to your bosses!

[Edited on January 10, 2014 at 11:20 AM. Reason : not "expose yourself"]

1/10/2014 11:01:58 AM

Yeah, I need to quit trying to get myself fired in Raleigh, Rock Hill(?), and Eastern Tennessee.

This ruse requires an awful lot of driving...

The only thing amusing to me about dtownral is how badly he wants to be a Planner. Oh those were the days!

1/10/2014 2:15:18 PM

I wanted to add my two cents as a teacher, but Smath74 said what I wanted to say.

Additionally,

Quote :

"Zero tolerance policies (while well intentioned) too often inject the criminal justice system... truancy, smoking, carrying a weapon... these policies became popular post-Columbine... etc."

1. Holy shit Holder thinks weapons possession at a school shouldn't involve the police. How removed can an administration be?

2. I wonder if there's an educator in the world who doesn't support their school's SRO's.

SRO's are incredibly handy. I felt this NPR piece handled the issue well: http://www.npr.org/2013/03/20/174414169/how-to-be-the-good-guy-with-a-gun-at-school

When kids are arrested for stupid shit, it's a result of dumb policy-- not the existence of SRO's.

[Edited on January 10, 2014 at 6:38 PM. Reason : ]

1/10/2014 6:37:49 PM

but you are orders of magnitude more likely to be the victim of a SRO than someone who was saved by one

Quote :

"1. Holy shit Holder thinks weapons possession at a school shouldn't involve the police. How removed can an administration be? "

wrong, he is saying we shouldn't have zero tolerance policies against them. zero tolerance policies against guns cause kids to get suspended for making a gun shape with their fingers or pop tarts.

[Edited on January 10, 2014 at 6:49 PM. Reason : .]

1/10/2014 6:44:08 PM

^trololololol

1/10/2014 9:25:01 PM

Just ignore him-

The dtownral alias is done; he needs to make a new one.

The left-wing users here ignore him or distance themselves from him because he's retarded, and of course the right-wing users hate him.

Dude can't say a word in Chit Chat without being told to shut the fuck up; that's a big red flag right there.

Needs to go make friends at city council meetings instead-

1/10/2014 9:40:05 PM

1/10/2014 11:10:47 PM