GeniusX can be blamed for this thread (re: Ron Paul voter fraud). I'm just curious what everyone's thoughts are on these topics as related to the US. Most people I know regularly say we're the most free nation in the world and think other nations look up to us as a guiding beacon of democracy.

Why is it that last year we hit 19 in democracy and 24 in corruption (24th least corrupt) while the "terrible" socialist countries of northern Europe routinely score much higher on both?

Do you have issues with the methodology or essentially agree with the findings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
http://graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Democracy_Index_2010_web.pdf (for 2010)

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/#CountryResults

4/25/2012 2:32:35 AM

I'm certain that even the least corrupt country, by any methodology, has more corrupt leaders than not. I think it is impossible for any person to achieve the pinnacle of success, whether in government or commerce, by 100% honorable means.

I don't think "Freedom" and "corruption" are closely related. "Public Perception of corruption" is a decent metric, but its probably skewed a bit in favor of freer countries, and nations with long-established goverments:

Case A: government uses police and bulldozers to force people from their homes in order to create space for wealthy developers, while compensating the owners with the fair value of the property
Case B: government makes small, legal changes to city planning documents and ordinances to cause the property value of the houses to plummet, allowing the developers to compel the owners to sell

One of these governments will certainly be perceived as more corrupt, despite each end result being the same.

I think a more accurate assessment would take into account the term of the nation's current government (i.e. how long the leaders/parties have held power). In the US' case, the Democrats and Republicans have held significant amounts of power for over a century. There's no doubt in my mind that they only serve to channel and amplify the influence of this nation's most powerful corporations and interest groups.

4/25/2012 2:23:38 PM

Quote :

"100% honorable means."

If the lottery is illegal for ordinary citizens, and a citizen holds a lottery and makes money, is that dishonorable?

If the lottery is legal for states, and the states make money, is that honorable?

4/25/2012 3:58:12 PM

I long ago had the idea eroded from my brain that we are some shinging beacon of World Freedom and Democracy. If we were truly a Democratic nation then someone like Ron Paul would actually have a chance and not be black-balled by the establishment.

The whole Republican and Democrat paradigm is a sham created by the big corporations and interest groups to give the common folks a feel of control as well as someone to blame when shit is not going well.

Hell I can't even spend my hard earned money to play poker for money on-line.

SOPA passing would be a huge push of our freedoms into the dumpster.

[Edited on April 26, 2012 at 2:56 PM. Reason : a]

4/26/2012 2:50:10 PM

Quote :

"I'm certain that even the least corrupt country, by any methodology, has more corrupt leaders than not. I think it is impossible for any person to achieve the pinnacle of success, whether in government or commerce, by 100% honorable means."

I think that it's impossible for a government to be corruption-free; however, I find it difficult to fathom that, even in the least corrupt country, there are more corrupt leaders than there are not.

[Edited on April 26, 2012 at 3:14 PM. Reason : On second thought, power has a very corrupting influence...]

4/26/2012 3:12:52 PM