I've noticed the traditional non-stick coating is wearing off on one of my pans, and I'm thinking it might be a bad idea to stop using it considering how bad it looks. In the process of shopping for a replacement, I've noticed "green" pans that claim to be PTFE and/or PFOA free.

Does anyone use "green" cookware? What's the nonstick performance like? Any other pro/cons over traditional nonstick pans? Should I make sure I avoid both of the acronyms above...or is one worse than the other?

Here are a few I'm looking at on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Frying-Ozeri-Ceramic-Non-Stick-Coating/dp/B004AMUELO/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1323305434&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-GreenGourmet-10-Inch-Round-Griddle/dp/B0019KKMVM/ref=sr_1_8?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1323306465&sr=1-8
http://www.amazon.com/Hudson-Home-GT4FP10-GreenPan-Rotterdam/dp/B004G8Q4C0/ref=sr_1_13?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1323306465&sr=1-

12/7/2011 8:21:15 PM

I have some "green" cookware. It's called an old cast iron skillet.

12/7/2011 8:51:02 PM

^^ I'm curious how often you use nonstick cookware?

12/7/2011 9:06:36 PM

I have some "green" cookware. It's called an old cast iron skillet.

12/7/2011 9:09:31 PM

I have some "green" cookware. It's called an old cast iron skillet.

12/7/2011 9:14:27 PM

we have a pan, grill pan, pot, & other pot type thing made of this green nonstick mess. 3 are greenpan brand, the other is...something i forgot. it's CRAP. it's super nonstick at first, more so than normal black teflon, but after very little time it becomes super stick.

dislike. would not purchase (or add to a registry) again.

12/7/2011 9:38:08 PM

har har har. i too have cast iron.

Quote :

"I'm curious how often you use nonstick cookware?"

I'd say at least 4-5 times a week.

12/7/2011 9:40:02 PM

Quote :

"I have some "green" cookware. It's called an old cast iron skillet."

I love my cast iron skillet. I primarily use stainless steel and have one nonstick pan that I use for certain things.

My mom has some GreenPans and really likes them.

If you can move away from traditional nonstick cookware, I would. I left nonstick cookware because I am a bird owner and overheated nonstick cookware releases fumes that will kill them.

12/7/2011 9:43:47 PM

Quote :

"I'd say at least 4-5 times a week."

as others have implied, you probably don't need to be cooking on nonstick that much.

i have one non-stick that i very occasionally use for eggs.

12/7/2011 9:47:53 PM

Quote :

"as others have implied, you probably don't need to be cooking on nonstick that much."

which is why i'm looking at "green" options. just trying to find out:

1) if they're really safer
2) if they perform as well

12/7/2011 10:02:41 PM

not trying to be a dick, but i think what everyone is trying to say is worry less about which pan is green and worry more about reducing your use of nonstick (of any type) in the first place

12/7/2011 10:09:41 PM

I don't understand the freaking out over non-stick pans. The teflon degrades after 400 degrees, but most of your stove-top meals that you would actually want to use non-stick for are going to be at 350-375. Hotter than that, and you're trying to sear something which you should probably be using a cast iron for anyway.

I have always used Calphalon and haven't ever had a problem feeling ill after cooking (if you breath the fumes, you supposed start feeling like you have a flu until you get it out of your system), and my animals have never been affected. If you're one of those people who cooks with only two temperatures, warm and screaming hot, then maybe you need to be concerned about the non-stick coating. Other than that, honestly, I don't understand the objection to Teflon.

(You guys did get me curious, though. I shot an e-mail to Calphalon's customer service just out of curiosity if they had some pre-packaged response to this 'potential health hazard'.)

12/7/2011 10:54:03 PM

Honestly, I'm more concerned about my parrot's health than my own as far as nonstick cookware is concerned. I, personally, know of more than one bird owner who has lost a beloved pet because someone forgot that they left a pot of water boiling on the stove or some other careless nonsense where the cookware ends up overheating and releasing toxic fumes.

My Quaker has been a very dear member of the family for eight years now and I would hate to lose him over a pot of Ramen.

[Edited on December 7, 2011 at 11:04 PM. Reason : .]

12/7/2011 11:03:45 PM

^I did see a thing on Calphalon's website that spoke about birds. Apparently (not just according to Calphalon), birds are extremely sensitive to anything in the air (air sprays or even steam in some cases) and they can be affected by the fumes if they are overheated from what their box states they should be. It also mentions having a well ventilated kitchen, yada yada yada.

12/7/2011 11:08:52 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fond

[Edited on December 7, 2011 at 11:12 PM. Reason : can't forget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roux]

12/7/2011 11:10:51 PM

I have some green cookware

12/8/2011 3:05:03 AM

I'm not cooking on ANYTHING that can kill a goddamn animal. Fuck that. I dont care what the recommendation for temp says

12/8/2011 6:46:13 AM

After reading Slow Death By Rubber Duck, I'm eager to get rid of my non-stick. I always kind of knew that stuff was pretty bad and the book confirmed my suspicions. You shouldn't need non-stick anyway if you're heating to the correct temperature.

12/8/2011 6:52:45 AM

If your friends were careless enough to leave cookware unattended on a hot stove, the birds didn't have a good chance at survival in the long term anyway

PTFE is the chemical acronym for Teflon, which degrades at 350 - 400 C (over 600 F). It is a fluoropolymer and thus contains fluorine. The polymer is chemically inert under those temperatures so I'm not even sure there is a risk to eating small amounts of it. However, if you're stupid enough to leave it on the stove at very high temperatures with nothing on it, it will degrade and release HF (hydrofluoric acid) and a variety of fun chemicals.

I don't know much about green alternatives, but they all will likely degrade at the same temperatures since that is the point at which organics disintegrate. They likely are hydrocarbon based, but I have seen reports of how some nonstick pans will say, for example, that they are a diamond coating with no Teflon, but in fact are PTFE with bits of diamond dust mixed in...the key being that they aren't using a trademarked material.

I'm seeing the Ceramica coating from that Cuisinart pan degrades at 250 C or near 500 F. Maybe you should just use steel pans and get away from nonstick

Also, don't use metal utensils with nonstick pans. It scrapes off the coating, and while the PTFE might be inert, the chemicals used to bond it (PFOA apparently) can be dangerous.

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 7:15 AM. Reason : fgh]

12/8/2011 7:03:32 AM

Go all stainless and cast iron, keep one good PTFE omelet pan, cook happy. You get to use metal tools in your stuff without fear of destroying it any more - what's better than that?

12/8/2011 7:23:19 AM

^Clean-up.

Quote :

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fond [Edited on December 7, 2011 at 11:12 PM. Reason : can't forget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roux]"

Why would you ever attempt to make either one of these with non-stick? Anyone who has non-stick should always have some stainless or ceramics somewhere to handle these types of jobs. I don't make a lot of roux, but when I do, I have a small stock pot that heats really evenly so it doesn't burn as it's reducing. Best way to make roux, IMHO, is in cast iron. Don't sure why anyone would want to use a non-stick or why you would need to push it past 400 degrees.

12/8/2011 8:42:46 AM

I've never really found clean-up of non-stick to be any better or worse than other types of cookware out there. The only thing I refuse to buy now because it can be such a bitch to clean are silicone bakeware.

12/8/2011 9:23:22 AM

Quote :

"^Clean-up."

You just have to use the right tool for the job.



You don't want to run this thing across your non-stick pans, but it will do a number on some burnt on food.

I've been using Calphalon stainless almost exclusively for several years now.

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 9:51 AM. Reason : s]

12/8/2011 9:49:56 AM

Quote :

"Calphalon stainless"

so for your frying pan how would you do over easy eggs? pancakes? just use enough butter to provide something close to non-stick? in general how to you keep crap from sticking to it all the time? i realize in a lot of dishes it doesn't matter, but in many others it does.

12/8/2011 9:58:13 AM

You just make sure you have the pan hot enough and just a touch of oil. The problem most people have is they don't have their cookware at a high enough heat because they're afraid of burning it but having the heat too low is often what causes sticking. And you don't have to douse the pan in oil either. Though for me, when I make pancakes and eggs I usually just use my cast iron griddle.

12/8/2011 10:06:04 AM

A well-seasoned cast iron skillet (or multiple, different-sized skillets) is what you're looking for.

Get an old (50-80 year old) Griswold or Wagner skillet, scrape off all the old seasoning, and start over. This blog has a lot of information about cleaning and re-seasoning.

If you do find or buy old cast iron, make sure it was never used to melt lead.


http://blackirondude.blogspot.com/

12/8/2011 10:10:08 AM

Yeah the problem with old cast iron is unless you're talking to the original owner, you just don't know what that pan was used for in the past. Lodge also makes nice cast iron if you want to go for something new.

12/8/2011 10:12:26 AM

i have 3 cast irons - one, the 10 inch, is about 60 years old, one is an Emeril 12 inch, and one is a lodge 15 inch hi-walled.

I love 'em all.

12/8/2011 10:21:48 AM

Quote :

"Lodge also makes nice cast iron if you want to go for something new."

I believe Lodge is also the only company that makes cast iron here in the US. Everything else comes from China (including the "celebrity chef cast iron"), and heaven only knows what they put in it.

The only issue I have with Lodge stuff is the lack of smoothness on the cooking surface. Older cast iron were made from higher quality iron ore and the cooking surface was machined to be very smooth from the beginning, before any seasoning was applied. The newer Lodge stuff comes from the factory a bit...bumpy. I've heard of people sanding them smooth, but cooking in them over time will eventually fill in the pumps and pits with a good seasoning layer. It will just take awhile.

Newer (16-years old) Lodge stuff on the left, older cast iron on the right. Note that the newer (read: brand new) Lodge skillets today are smoother than the one in the photo and have better finishing from the factory, but not by much.




Photo from here:
http://blackirondude.blogspot.com/2008/05/old-cast-iron-vs-new-cast-iron.html

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 10:41 AM. Reason : ]

12/8/2011 10:39:45 AM

Quote :

"Get an old (50-80 year old) Griswold or Wagner skillet, scrape off all the old seasoning, and start over. This blog has a lot of information about cleaning and re-seasoning."

Where from? Here?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Cast-Iron-/976/i.html?_nkw=wagner&_catref=1&_sac=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m1538

12/8/2011 10:48:25 AM

Sure -- Ebay has lots. Old flea markets, and believe it or not, metal collecting places.
Yes, there are even forums for old cast iron.
http://www.griswoldandwagner.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

I found a bunch of old cast iron at both of my grandmothers' places under some stuff in the kitchen cabinets. They weren't using it so I snagged it.

Newer cast iron is good too, and pretty cheap. You can get a 12-inch Lodge skillet from Wal-Mart for $20; smaller skillets are obviously cheaper. They go from ~4" up to ~15". You can amass a pretty good collection quickly if you aren't paying attention. I believe I'm up to 10 skillets and 1 dutch oven.

The more you use it, the slicker the surface gets.

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 10:57 AM. Reason : ]

12/8/2011 10:56:12 AM

Quote :

"so for your frying pan how would you do over easy eggs? pancakes? just use enough butter to provide something close to non-stick? in general how to you keep crap from sticking to it all the time? i realize in a lot of dishes it doesn't matter, but in many others it does."

I only like eggs scrambled. As wolfpackgrrr mentioned, if you let the pan heat all the way up so the food starts cooking as soon as it hits you need very little oil. I have cooked pancakes in it and they did fine, however I have a cast iron griddle that is more ideal for those (remember when I said "almost exclusively"). Anything that gets burnt on will come right off with a steel pot scrubber though. I would say I use stainless for over 95% of my cooking. I have the griddle for pancakes, but I doubt I use it more than twice a year (not a big breakfast person) and I have a large lidded pan that I was using for chilli until I retired it a couple weeks ago due to the non-stick coating starting to look bad.

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 11:09 AM. Reason : s]

12/8/2011 11:06:04 AM

Quote :

"I have a large lidded pan that I was using for chilli until I retired it a couple weeks ago due to the non-stick coating starting to look bad."

Was this cast iron?

The seasoning layer on cast iron is reactive (as opposed to stainless, teflon, etc being non-reactive), so it is not recommended for anything acidic unless you have a fantastic seasoning layer. Even then, repeated cooking of acidic foods will work on wearing away the seasoning layer.

As much as I love cast iron, other materials certainly have their place. I would love to get a set of Mauviel copper/stainless cookware, but I can't justify spending $2,000 on a cookware set.

For those who might be un-aware, one attribute of cast iron is that it can hold tremendous amounts of heat for quite awhile. If your skillet has gotten nice and hot, you can turn off the burner and still cook on it for quite awhile. Other materials do the opposite -- copper cookware gives you very fine and quick control over temperature. Turn the burner off and copper skillets cool down quickly.

Cast iron cooking care:
Do not turn the burner on full blast on a cold skillet as it can warp; I usually start by setting the stove on 3 and letting the skillet warm up a bit before turning the heat up. Just the same, don't put a hot skillet under cold water. Let the skillet warm up slowly, and let it cool down before cleaning it (or at least using hot water on a warm skillet). You will likely keep your cooktop set to a lower temperature using cast iron than you normally would, since it holds heat so well. Don't pick up a hot cast iron skillet by the handle without an oven mitt...you'll only do it once.

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 11:52 AM. Reason : ]

12/8/2011 11:44:08 AM

Quote :

"Was this cast iron?"

No...It's something like this only a little bigger:



Just a big old saute pan. I can cook around 4 lbs of chili in it, but now I'm browning my meat in the large Calphalon stainless pan and simmering it in a large Calphalon stainless pot instead. It's something like this with the steamer and strainer included:




I should have switched a long time ago, but I was used to doing things a certain way didn't even think of changing until I noticed the non-stick coating starting to come up on the saute pan.

My last batch of chili was three pounds of meat, five cans of chili beans, five cans of diced tomatoes, celery, garlic, onion, and spices. It had to be 5+ pounds of finished product and I think I can get a little more in it.

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 12:07 PM. Reason : l]

12/8/2011 11:59:49 AM

Quote :

"Why would you ever attempt to make either one of these with non-stick?"

You wouldn't.

12/8/2011 12:20:41 PM

Quote :

"PTFE and/or PFOA"

my old major was environmental chemistry/science. From what I have learned, both of those chemicals are suspected (not proven) carcinogens. They accumulate in fatty tissue and are stuck there for awhile. And when you heat the pan and put food on it a trace amount can be left on the food.

as for the performance of "green" vs. teflon, I heard they are similar, but I really don't know. I have a cast iron skillet in a few sizes, it is more cleaning and care but they last fucking forever and I question any product falling under the 'green' umbrella, because many times it is a marketing scam

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 12:46 PM. Reason : ^]

12/8/2011 12:38:53 PM

I have some "green" cookware. It's called an old cast iron skillet.

You just need to learn how to love it:

1) Always warm up oil/butter before adding stuff in to cook.

2) Don't use soap to clean, at the very least rinse it with a sponge, no soap.

3) Oil regularly to prevent oxidation.

4) Season 2-3x a year with shortening or lard, or whatever you use. Cover in shortening, bake at 450-500
for an hour, let cool. It takes longer with veggie shortening, and is more finicky to fix with
non-animal products.

5) Don't let your asshole roommates use it (I've had to rescue both a stainless steel saucepan and a 12"
skillet from these dumbasses, the last time someone destroyed my cast iron skillet it took months to
get it back to good). I got rid of the roommate to boot for that.

12/8/2011 1:23:44 PM

Quote :

"They accumulate in fatty tissue and are stuck there for awhile. And when you heat the pan and put food on it a trace amount can be left on the food."

Are you talking pans with a degraded teflon coating...or even new nonstick pans?

Quote :

"I got rid of the roommate to boot for that."

you got rid of a roommate cause they messed up a skillet?

12/8/2011 1:28:06 PM

I learned that over time the amount released increases, but there are a lot of chemicals we receive daily so I am not sure the relativity of the dosage. However, the evidence supporting PFOA as a cancer agent is compelling enough for me to steer clear.... that and microwave popcorn

12/8/2011 1:35:29 PM

Quote :

"However, the evidence supporting PFOA as a cancer agent "

Technically, burning candles releases carcinogens that over time can cause lung cancer. PFOA can cause cancer, but I still haven't seen anything that talks about doses. In the case of candles, they say just being in a decently ventillated room could solve your problem. I've seen the same thing said about these non-stick pans.

Don't get me wrong, the more carcinogenic materials you can eliminate from your life, the better.

12/8/2011 3:02:18 PM

yea, I know... but this is in regards to PFOA being found on your food that you consume. I am not sure if the non stick pans emit harmful gaseous forms of the carcinogen, but I feel much more inclined to err on the side of caution when digesting carcinogens, that is how it gets stored in fatty tissue. The number of cancer cases with unknown causes is enough for me to not want to actually find out. I am not the kind of person who has to have everything organic/toxin free and reuse, but I draw the line with bottled water, soda in plastic, and microwave popcorn. Not that I truly believe I will get cancer if I eat any of those things, but since it is not a necessity then I don't care if I cut it out of my diet.

12/8/2011 3:48:40 PM

I always thought your lungs were much more susceptible to carcinogens than any other part of your body. If anything, I would think your stomach would be best equipped to deal with potentially toxic materials since it’s designed to come in contact with items from outside the body.

Either way, your point is well taken. I hadn’t seen anything talking about the health effects due to the carcinogens entering the food, just the carcinogens becoming airborne. What source are you looking at (not doubting you, I'm just curious)?

12/8/2011 3:56:19 PM

^I can find a relevant journal, but this is from a class where we extensively debated, with reviewed article, the effects of chemicals in the environment. This discussion lasted for 7 2 hour class periods. However, that was 2.5 years ago, so there is likely more updated info... and new studies in the green field constantly contradict the preceding research.

as for the lungs, most certainly they are the most sensitive, but as you mentioned they are easy to avoid with proper ventilation. The concern off ingested food with PFOA, or any other carcinogen, is the additive effect. When you have a non stick pan do you ever think about how many times you used it this week? or when you drink bottled water or bottled soda, do you talley the ounces you drink? no, not really. That is the difficult part of this.... bc it is next to impossible to determine the source of cancer, people are not very concerned about cutting anything out of their diet unless there is definitive proof... so many people will just consume copious amount of questionable chemicals. Who can blame people for that when these chemicals have also made food less expensive.

12/8/2011 4:14:59 PM

Quote :

"you got rid of a roommate cause they messed up a skillet"

Fucking up a cast iron skillet is grounds for divorce and eviction. Most of my cast iron comes from my grandma and it's slick as owl shit. I interogate people before they want to cook with it and I never let them clean it unless they pass my test. This is serious business. You fuck with my cast iron, you fuck with my grandma. That shit dont fly with me

12/8/2011 5:08:29 PM

Quote :

"You fuck with my cast iron, you fuck with my grandma."

12/8/2011 5:12:16 PM

^^The additive affect is an interesting thing. I recently got done with a project that involved the effects of an additive (we called it "stacking") energy "weapon". The problem is that with what we were working with, the effects of the "stacking" wear off extremely quickly. Our bodies work much in the same way, whether it's energy or chemicals. We are induced with something and it has a certain duty-cycle after which it wears off.

I would be curious how long it takes the body to cleanse itself of these carcinogens. The human body tends to be an amazing radiator for harmful energy and substances. The answer may be more complicated than my non-biology-thinking mind can take, but it would be interesting to look into.... sometime.

12/8/2011 5:44:22 PM

BTW, response from Calphalon...

Quote :

"Thank you for taking the time to contact Calphalon. We truly appreciate your interest in our products. Calphalon uses PTFE (Polytetrafluoroethylene) material with proprietary reinforcements for wear resistance, as well as additional components to enhance heat transfer. Layers of nonstick coatings are used to increase the durability and thus the quality of nonstick cookware. With proper care our nonstick should not crack, chip or peel. The material we use for our nonstick finish (PTFE) is completely inert and nontoxic if accidentally ingested."

12/8/2011 5:45:14 PM

this thread is making me feel paranoid

12/8/2011 8:20:32 PM

^ x some number-

The full story is the roommate leered at my single friends to the point I no longer felt uncomfortable inviting them over for yoga or sewing, he had the social intelligence of a Pop Tart, and got behind on utilities.

And he fucked up my cast iron skillet, which my boyfriend got us as an anniversary present.

So yes, I kicked him out and took his room for my study, in which I type this.

12/8/2011 10:13:09 PM

Set 'em up!

12/8/2011 10:40:49 PM