I looked this up and though it was interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia#Economy
Somalia, without its government, looks like it has a thriving economy

7/12/2011 9:31:45 AM

Depends on your definition of "Government". Everywhere has a government of some kind, even Somalia. Somalia has what is called a decentralized Government because they had a horrible history with the centralized form.

7/12/2011 9:37:42 AM

I dunno: I would imagine that most Somalis would prefer to return to a centralized government that could restore order, or at least, that's the impression I get from the tens of thousands of refugees fleeing the country each year.

Also, based on the link, it sounds like much of the economy is run on remittances from Somalis in exile. One also has to wonder too how much of the economic activity is being generated by Somali breakaway provinces like Puntland and Somaliland that are still considered by the international community as part of Somali even if they are stable and independent states.

7/12/2011 11:16:07 AM

This is funny because every time my conservative friends compare taxation and regulation to fascism, I ask them why they don't move to Somalia where there would be no terrible federal government to so oppress them.

Oh, and

7/12/2011 11:26:24 AM

Somalia's infrastructure was ravaged by the government, so why would it suddenly become a libertarian paradise when the government is gone? Somalia actually has made progress in a lot of areas, even if it continues to have serious structural issues.

I saw this posted on Reddit a few days ago: http://donttreadonmike.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/somalia-haven-of-liberty-or-war-torn-hellhole/

[Edited on July 12, 2011 at 12:04 PM. Reason : ]

7/12/2011 12:02:55 PM

7/12/2011 1:06:58 PM

LOL, I'd like to see the white boy anarchist that wrote that survive in a nation run by warlords. Anarchy sounds great when you don't actually have to consider it. It's a fun thing to study and theorize about, like Babylon 5 fan fics or something.

I think the most telling sign is that his Manifesto (all radicals have 'em, I think I might have done one when I was 19) has 2 comments: one from someone with a TEAM PALIN icon, and another from his mom.

If you're going to have an unfeasible, short-sighted, or narrow ideology, at least pick the Pirate Party, so you can have the black flag AND call yourself a pirate (true statement: I'd run on a Pirate Party ticket in Germany).

[Edited on July 12, 2011 at 1:25 PM. Reason : s]

7/12/2011 1:22:12 PM

Again, I don't think the article posted is very useful, and if anything, the data it's using may be contaminated. Modern Somalia is basically divided into two parts: autonomous regions (effectively independent nation-states) that have fully functioning centralized governments and the areas of anarchy that people typically associate with Somalia. From the looks of it, most of the positive economic data is coming from those autonomous regions which have the benefit of a local government that maintains law and order.

In other words, one could argue that it's not anarchy that's benefited Somalia but better governance in the form of the Puntland and Somaliland governments that is bringing all this economic benefit. The growth in those stable areas is lifting up the average for the entire nation even as large swaths of the country are still in anarchy.

7/12/2011 1:36:30 PM

Quote :

"I dunno: I would imagine that most Somalis would prefer to return to a centralized government that could restore order, or at least, that's the impression I get from the tens of thousands of refugees fleeing the country each year."

Polls have been done which show the opposite. The national government they currently have has absolutely no support among the local population as whatever power it has, it uses to rob and murder the local populous.

To put it another way, the tens of thousands of refugees fleeing Somalia today is nothing compared to the millions that fled before the central government was dismantled. Also, fewer refugees fled from Somalia during the period after the collapse but before the United States funded an invasion of Somalia to impose a central state upon Somalia, resulting in the perpetual civil war Somalia has enjoyed ever since.

7/12/2011 1:58:32 PM

Quote :

"LOL, I'd like to see the white boy anarchist that wrote that survive in a nation run by warlords. Anarchy sounds great when you don't actually have to consider it. It's a fun thing to study and theorize about, like Babylon 5 fan fics or something."

You didn't read the article, dumbass.

[Edited on July 12, 2011 at 2:39 PM. Reason : or even the first paragraph...]

7/12/2011 2:38:31 PM

Was the header meant to be ironic, what with the "Anarchy!" and the black flag?

7/12/2011 2:56:54 PM

I am glad the Libertarian Party of Florida has taken a smart stand on this issue:

Quote :

"The idea that the anarchy of Somalia is acceptable is absurd. With good reason Somalia is noted for its piracy, chaos, poverty and oppression not for its liberty. Clearly it is easy to see that in Somalia the reality is that the only rights individuals have are those that they can protect themselves. The kidnapping, murder, and lack of any protection for the rights of those not favored by the local war lord are clearly not the type of government the people of the USA want to even consider. The Utopian ideas of anarchists when actually implemented resulted in dystopic Somalia.Just as the utopian ideas of communism where implemented result in poverty and oppression and the murder of millions of citizens by their communist governments."

http://www.libertyflorida.org/?p=837

We'll see if the national party has the nuts to drop kick the Mises Institute side show.

7/12/2011 3:12:31 PM

"Anarchy" was not implemented. From the article I posted:

Quote :

"As I said earlier, Somalia is by no means an ideal situation. Many areas are still run by warlords and Islamic fanatics, they are incredibly poor, they don’t have access to clean water, etc. But that was all true before the government fell too. Before 1991, Somalia was a violent, poverty-stricken, war-torn, Hellhole. Now it is a violent, poverty-stricken, war-torn Hellhole with a slightly improved quality of life, a growing economy, thriving businesses, and a system of law that everyone respects. So what went wrong? Why didn’t Somalia instantly become the utopia that many people think libertarians and anarchists think would happen? Well for starters…the starters. What I mean is, the starting conditions were already terrible. The government was dictatorial and many regions were run by warlords. Another less than ideal factor that didn’t help was the way in which anarchy came to Somalia: swiftly, violently, and by accident. If we are going to throw off chains of government it must be done deliberately and without violence. We must first change the hearts and minds of the people. “The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order, and in the assertion that, without Authority, there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that Anarchy can be instituted by a revolution. But it will be instituted only by there being more and more people who do not require the protection of governmental power … There can be only one permanent revolution – a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man.“ -Tolstoy"

[Edited on July 12, 2011 at 3:19 PM. Reason : because you guys are lazy as shit]

7/12/2011 3:16:13 PM

^ indeed, comrade. anarchism has never TRULY been tried.

and the only fair way to evaluate anarcho-capitalist proposals is to compare their ideal implementation against today's imperfect mixed economy. of course, statists would never engage in such a fair comparison.

But don't let the bourgeois political forces get you down! The permanent revolution requires permanent revolutionaries!!!

[Edited on July 12, 2011 at 3:28 PM. Reason : ``]

7/12/2011 3:23:49 PM

anarchism has never been truly tried... because it's impossible to try

it's the absence of governance

it literally means... NOTHING, because people ALWAYS in groups find a way to establish hierarchies, organization to get anything done

if we were to find ourselves, in a group, on a deserted island... we would very naturally find some way to organize ourselves... or sit in our own little circle and do nothing I suppose... nonsense

humans are a societal species

7/12/2011 7:46:16 PM

^ anarchy does not mean an absence of organization.

at least not as defined by the guy d357r0y3r was linking to or the groups the FLLP was denouncing (e.g. Mises Institute) in the link I posted.

http://www.amazon.com/Machinery-Freedom-Guide-Radical-Capitalism/dp/0812690699

7/12/2011 8:46:18 PM

If only we could completely manufacture the history, temperament, and conditions of a country, then anarchism would work!!

LOL

The funny thing is there was a time i avowed myself as a libertarian on TWW, but thanks to the so-called libertarians on this board, i realized how naive this was.


[Edited on July 12, 2011 at 9:54 PM. Reason : ]

7/12/2011 9:53:06 PM

anarchy works

7/12/2011 10:23:12 PM

moron, indeed.

7/12/2011 10:47:11 PM

haha you let TWW influence your beliefs.

what a dumpy bastard.

7/13/2011 8:59:10 AM

"Libertarians" have done a bang-up job representing the ideology across the internet, not just on TWW. It's difficult to want to be associated with the movement, even if you share some of their ideals.

7/13/2011 9:10:52 AM

Quote :

"There can be only one permanent revolution – a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man."

This is the biggest take-away from Tolstoy.

Look, I know I'm hard on libertarians, but the fact is that I have much more disdain for the establishment of American politics, in both parties. My first political involvement was in 2000...for Nader (yeah, laugh it up). In 2005 or so, it was all about bashing the neocons. Now, those doofuses aren't on this board anymore (mostly because they were flaming hypocrites or got caught in massive lies, hi Wolfpack2k!) so it's pretty much an amorphous blob of liberals and some strident libertarians. I think part of me just looks back on my really radical days and wants to beat me up for being a smug little prick, when in reality, I just got jaded by "movement" politics and retreated to being an armchair politico on the internet. There's no right-wingers here, so I end up taking issue with the gold bugs because there's no one else I think is absurd enough.

7/13/2011 9:17:29 AM