http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/06/13/california.subway.shooting.release/index.html

This got me thinking. It seems like a good idea for special units to have guns on stock and maybe even police to have guns in their trunk, but why do police still carry guns? What % of their job requires a gun? What would happen in those situations if they didn't have guns? Today's technology is present to have non-lethal alternatives that work the same as guns so why don't police at least have rubber bullets at all times?

6/13/2011 10:03:21 AM

to even the playing field. criminals have guns.

6/13/2011 10:07:37 AM

when someone starts shooting at you its really inconvenient to have to go to a car to retrieve a weapon.

i think the bigger issue is the use of less-lethal devices for compliance rather than for defense. i think that there need to be much stricter guidelines on the usage of things like tazer guns or we are going to keep seeing people die from them.

6/13/2011 10:11:11 AM

^Is that a problem? Too many people dying from being tazed?

6/13/2011 10:15:29 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser_safety_issues#Deaths_and_injuries_related_to_Taser_use

6/13/2011 10:22:44 AM

Quote :

"i think the bigger issue is the use of less-lethal devices for compliance rather than for defense. i think that there need to be much stricter guidelines on the usage of things like tazer guns or we are going to keep seeing people die from them."

I'm surprised that this was already brought up in the 3rd post. People typically don't talk about tazers that much when talking about police for whatever reason. Most also fail to see the tazer as being a weapon with a fairly high potential to be lethal.

There are very clear guidelines as to when an officer can or can't use their gun. Unfortunately, even when they use it improperly, the internal enforcement of these matters is almost always inadequate. Regardless, your point I believe is a bigger concern since "less lethal" weapons are used far more frequently than an officer firing their gun when they shouldn't be. It's sad to see so many cases of police using a tazer because they just seemed unwilling to use anything else. Your comparison of compliance vs. defense was spot on.

6/13/2011 10:26:45 AM

Quote :

"Most also fail to see the tazer as being a weapon with a fairly high potential to be lethal. "

If you believe the officers testimony, the liberal use of tazers caused this suspect to be shot by mistakenly drawing their gun.

A man restrained on the floor is refusing to comply, so the officer decides to taze him...but draws his gun instead. If the officer had instead believed it was wrong to draw your tazer on a restrained suspect, this suspect would still be alive.

6/13/2011 11:05:53 AM

how many ppl do police kill with tazers as opposed to guns?

6/13/2011 11:07:04 AM

"Misuse" of a Taser is most likely attributed to a lack of adequate training; not in the actually deployment of the device but when the device should be deployed. Many states, must like NC have statutes that state an arrest can be effect with force that is reasonable. A taser is reasonable force under these statutes but department need more concise guidelines on when a taser can deployed.

An officer must weigh the totality of the circumstances before deploying a less lethal device. Is it worth deploying a taser a shoplifter who doesn't want to comply (i.e. put their hands behind their back)? What about if that shoplifter tries to assault you, the officer or other people?

The average number of taser related deaths is about 50 (Amnesty Int tries to track this) is astronomically far less than the number of correct, and successful taser deployments.

And as far as guns...we live in a strong gun culture both good (CWW'ers, sportsman, etc) and bad (thugs). An officer must carry that weapon to protect the lives of the citizens as well as himself.

6/13/2011 5:53:38 PM

if my job description involves "likely to be shot at" you bet your butt I'll be packing.

I like the rubber bullet idea, but we should upgrade all firearms to MP5's or better. There should be a hail of rubber raining down.

6/13/2011 6:10:42 PM

Quote :

"The average number of taser related deaths is about 50 (Amnesty Int tries to track this) is astronomically far less than the number of correct, and successful taser deployments. "

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/tasers-potentially-lethal-and-easy-abuse-20081216

Since you said Amnesty Int, the # you're looking for would be 334 between 2001 and August 2008 in the USA alone.

What about 2009 and 2010...



I'm pretty sure the trend isn't going the other way.

6/13/2011 6:27:04 PM

Dude if cops couldn't carry guns they'd all quit tomorrow, and I would too.

6/13/2011 6:54:59 PM

This ain't no paintball match. This is real life.

6/13/2011 7:08:58 PM

I know, those punks should think twice next time they're about to have a seizure.

6/13/2011 8:22:40 PM

You guys act like criminals sit around plotting ways to attack cops. Criminals run from cops. This isn't GTA. Thugs don't sit around thinking"theres a cop its time to cap him" and when a cop notices guns are involved, he can call in the tactical unit.

6/13/2011 10:49:33 PM

Quote :

"and when a cop notices guns are involved, he can call in the tactical unit."

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls and all, but this has to be the most asinine thing I've ever read in my life. So when bad shit goes down, you call the cops, you have to wait for them to show up, and then god help you if the criminals are armed, the cops then have to call for their own protection.

Incidentally, the whole ongoing effort to militarize the police is one of the major factors contributing to the growing disconnect between the police and the people they serve and the ever expanding use of dangerous and unnecessary tactics. As they say, when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. The same will apply to the "tactical unit" when their only job is to come in and shoot someone, whenever they get called in, someone is going to get shot whether it needs to happen or not. Every damn police department doesn't need a SWAT team. They should all have a multitude of tools at their disposal and know how and when to use them. And no one should every be forced to rely on someone else for their own protection if they are capable and willing to protect themselves.

This disaster wasn't the fault of cops carrying guns, or of cops carrying and using tasers. It was the result of poor training combined with an idiotic decision that led the purchased tasers shaped like guns (good because of muscle memory) to be holstered on the same side as the officer's firearm (bad because of muscle memory).

Let's stop wasting our law enforcement money on helicopters, SWAT teams and tactical units and let's start using it to pay for and maintain quality police officers with quality training. Officers with connections to the community, and officers who aren't part of some "special squad" but who instead understand and take to heart principle number seven of the principles laid out by Sir Robert Peel when establishing the london police:

Quote :

"The police at all times should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police are the only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the intent of the community welfare."

http://www.vcpionline.org/pdfs/Peel's%20Principles.pdf

6/13/2011 11:27:17 PM

Quote :

"So when bad shit goes down, you call the cops, you have to wait for them to show up, and then god help you if the criminals are armed, the cops then have to call for their own protection."

You seem to be under the impression that cops have to use cover fire in everyday situations when in reality >>1% of cop responses are the type of situations you see on tv. Cops out patrolling do not need guns to carry out 99% of their duties.

Also you are talking about calling the cops. If cops are responding to a call that involves guns, then those cops will have their trunk guns ready but this doesn't give street patrol cops a reason to carry.

Quote :

"This disaster wasn't the fault of cops carrying guns, or of cops carrying and using tasers. It was the result of poor training combined with an idiotic decision that led the purchased tasers shaped like guns (good because of muscle memory) to be holstered on the same side as the officer's firearm (bad because of muscle memory)."

Far too often do cops misuse guns. Hell, I've had cops draw a gun on me and my mom for not having her hands on the steering wheel. A lot of boys grow up wanting to be cops so they can point guns at people. A lot of people die as a result and the cops never get punished.

6/13/2011 11:55:01 PM

Quote :

"Far too often do cops misuse guns. Hell, I've had cops draw a gun on me and my mom for not having her hands on the steering wheel. A lot of boys grow up wanting to be cops so they can point guns at people. A lot of people die as a result and the cops never get punished. "

poor you and you're mom... follow the rules for everyone's safety

my grandmother's brother (sc hp) was shot and killed at a routine traffic stop. you're still missing the point that what you should be focusing on is the training instead of the weapons.

sounds like you and you're mom could use some training along with the LEOs

6/14/2011 2:27:51 AM

you know, to me, it seems more reasonable if every criminal would stop carrying a weapon, i mean come on!

6/14/2011 7:38:39 AM

if you just made guns illegal then criminals wouldn't carry them, duh

6/14/2011 8:16:53 AM

haha yeah, THEN SOARDS AN NIVES AN EVARTHANG ELSE'LL BE ILLEGAL!

6/14/2011 9:08:33 AM

^^^^^^

Damn, I had never heard about Peel's Principles before, but they are still spot on all these years later. What's sad is that I can't say with a straight face that a majority police departments observe more than maybe one or two of those principles. As a matter of fact, modern PD's follow the exact OPPOSITE of some of those 9 things.

My favorite was probably:

Quote :

"The degree of cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes, proportionately, to the necessity for the use of physical force and compulsion in achieving police objectives. "

If cops recognized this one thing, it would release so much tension. I cannot recall many times (that I've either experienced personally or seen on various tv shows) where a police officer makes an honest effort to diffuse the situation. I have no problem with self-defense, but some of the "precautionary" measures they take for their own self defense is where people have a problem.

6/14/2011 10:12:53 AM