http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4BDOOULLQI

History repeats itself. Here are words from one of the greatest presidents in the last 50 years. This IS the tea party message. Hes exactly right. Socialism hiding as liberalism is running wild today.....

9/27/2010 11:46:35 PM

The tea party message is a reagan speech recorded in 1961 about how evil and wrong Medicare is? They are even dumber than I thought…

How did he find time to do this between recording "The Dick Powell Theatre” and"Zane Grey Theater”?

And you realize Regan as president was the first president to really start ignoring the deficit, and sign on to massive deficit spending, expanding entitlement programs, and creating the war on drugs? And he notably did not dismantle Medicare when he had the chance… are you saying this is what you think the greatest presidents should do?

Anyway…

To provide some context to the Regan clip, he was arguing against Medicare on behalf of the AMA at the time, which was trying to keep the failing Kerrs-Mills program from being repealed. Clearly, Medicare hasn’t resulted in the disasters Reagan outlines, so we know whoever wrote that speech was wrong, but even worse, had Medicare not been enacted at the time, millions of WWI veterans and survivors of the great depression would have been hopelessly without access to any kind of health care:

Quote :

"At the time, there were 2.4 million seniors receiving state old-age assistance, and an estimated 10 million medically indigent who were not on state welfare rolls but who were unable to pay their own medical bills. … by 1963 there were still 18 states which had never implemented Kerr-Mills, three years after the legislation was enacted, and five large industrial states with only 32% of the medically-indigent were receiving nearly 90% of the federal funds expended under the program. … Given the limitations of Kerr-Mills, it is not surprising that the program failed to accomplish very much in the five years before it was repealed. A cynic might suspect that failure to accomplish very much was probably just what the AMA hoped for. … the passage of Kerr-Mills in 1960 did not end the pressure for a Medicare program—as the conservatives and the AMA wished and hoped. After all, the non-indigent elderly were still in need of health care coverage and still unlikely to be able to purchase it in the marketplace. Studies at the time reported that the aged used medical services at a rate twice that of the non-aged; that three-fifths of the aged had less than $1,000 in liquid assets; and that nearly 54% of the aged lacked any form of health insurance. While opponents of Medicare disputed the precise statistics, it was clear to virtually everyone that the aged had medical-care problems that far exceeded those of the average American."

http://www.larrydewitt.net/Essays/Reagan.htm

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 12:09 AM. Reason : ]

9/27/2010 11:57:53 PM

we're not even close to socialism: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/09/16/129914195/is-the-u-s-moving-toward-socialism-a-socialist-weighs-in

also Reagan was heavily overrated, even among the "liberal" media
here's how this year's Siena Poll ordered the 10 Presidents we've had over the past 50 years (with overall ranking among all 43 Presidents)
JFK (11), Clinton (13), Obama (15), LBJ (16), Reagan (18), Bush (22), Ford (28), Nixon (30), Carter (32), Dubya (39)
IMO the only one of those other Presidents not clearly better than Reagan was Dubya, they both appeared to have no idea how idiotic it was to cut taxes and ramp up military spending, and Reagan's foreign policy was basically a death wish (before you point out the breakup of the Soviet Union, that was a long time coming, based on the fundamental flaws of the Communist state rather than anything we did, and we have Gorbachev to thank for it more than anyone else)

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 12:08 AM. Reason : Dubya was ranked properly though, I would have put a slightly different foursome below him

9/28/2010 12:07:35 AM

^ the US has been socialist for a hundred years now.

The difference is whether corporations get the benefit of it, or the majority of the people.

The Tea Partiers and republicans would prefer that corporations get preference over the rest of the public, while the grassroots liberals believe that progress and innovation are driven by enabling the masses to hone their ideas, not by bending over backwards for the entrenched oligarchy of corporations.

9/28/2010 12:14:18 AM

big government benefiting the corporations is not socialism

9/28/2010 12:16:23 AM

Of course not, but when the right rails against socialism, they are really concerned about not enough corporatism, not actually too much socialism.

9/28/2010 12:23:43 AM

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 12:24 AM. Reason : ]

9/28/2010 12:23:43 AM

good point, I mean the teabaggers are all "GIT YER GUBMINT HANDZ OUTTA MA MEDICAIR!!1!"

9/28/2010 2:28:56 AM

^^^

?

9/28/2010 7:49:27 AM

Quote :

"you realize Regan as president was the first president to really start ignoring the deficit, and sign on to massive deficit spending, expanding entitlement programs, and creating the war on drugs? And he notably did not dismantle Medicare when he had the chance… are you saying this is what you think the greatest presidents should do?"

This.

I'm so fucking sick of St. Reagan and I don't know where this cult came from. The only thing more disturbing is Roger Stone's obsession with Nixon.

Quote :

"this year's Siena Poll ordered the 10 Presidents we've had over the past 50 years (with overall ranking among all 43 Presidents) JFK (11), Clinton (13), Obama (15), LBJ (16), Reagan (18), Bush (22), Ford (28), Nixon (30), Carter (32), Dubya (39)"

REALLY? While mocking a poll for ranking President Obama 15th after only 2 years is picking the low hanging fruit, ranking LBJ 16th is goddamned asinine.

LBJ is pretty much George W. Bush with a (D) after his name. Seriously, the parallels are creepy. Both had dubious military records. LBJ had Vietnam brought on by a attack on naval vessels that never occurred, Bush had Iraq brought on by alleged WMD. LBJ created massive entitlements, GWB expanded them (and government in general) by the largest amount since LBJ. LBJ gets credit for the civil rights act (to be fair, he shares credit since Congress and not the President passed it), GWB did more than any president until him to reach out to Hispanic voters (to be sure, this isn't on the same level as the CRA, but had September 11th not occurred, there is no telling where that might have gone, he got more Hispanic voters than any GOP candidate in recent memory). LBJ was so loathed by the public that he was forced to resign instead of running for a second full term. GWB was so loathed by the public that the electorate turned both houses of Congress over to his opposition and elected the exact opposite of him as the next President.

I mean, Jesus, on a sheer scale of death; while Bush is rightly critiqued for his role in Iraq, he has nothing on Vietnam.

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 8:36 AM. Reason : .]

9/28/2010 8:35:32 AM

LBJ did a lot of great things while running an awful war:
-Voting rights act
-Elementary and Secondary Education act
-Immigration act of '65
-Medicare
-Gun Control Act of '68
-Appointed the first black SC justice, Thurgood Marshall

All Bush did was enact a tax cut without a spending cut.

9/28/2010 8:59:25 AM

now now now he also greatly increased aid to Africa

9/28/2010 9:46:52 AM

^^^^

Quote :

"At the top, the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans, who earn more than $180,000, added slightly to their annual incomes last year, census data show. Families at the $50,000 median level slipped lower."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iCuYeWPyl7zqXPWi1Ck9mmYyAr7wD9IGP99G1?docId=D9IGP99G1

Curse you Obama for your class warfare socialist policies!!!!! Why do you hate rich people?!??!!!!

9/28/2010 10:57:21 AM

Quote :

"now now now he also greatly increased aid to Africa "

And domestic spending

9/28/2010 10:58:55 AM

this is true

OTOH he did try to get spending cuts passed along with the tax cuts but failed at it
also his greatest idea ever (an exceedingly modest proposal for Social Security reform) was never even introduced to Congress as legislation

9/28/2010 11:02:16 AM

^^^^^ Medicare and gun control do not make the "good" list.

Quote :

" LBJ is pretty much George W. Bush with a (D) after his name."

Yeah, LBJ would be a very strong contender for my least favorite President ever. I can only imagine how things would be different today had we elected Barry Goldwater (and lived to tell about it )

9/28/2010 11:10:44 AM

They do make the list of "it's lasted a long time and people seem to like it".

9/28/2010 11:23:55 AM

^^the Southern racists would have felt epically trolled and gone back to the Dummocraps

9/28/2010 11:37:59 AM

Quote :

"big government benefiting the corporations is not socialism "

incorrect

9/28/2010 12:39:46 PM

Quote :

"we're not even close to socialism"

...and yet, we're too close. Anyone who can't see that is either ignorant or evil.

9/28/2010 2:21:35 PM

Quote :

"it's lasted a long time and people seem to like it"

that's like saying that crack is good because crackheads like it.

9/28/2010 2:21:57 PM

I don't think crack has made the "people seem to like it" list. Am I wrong? Do most people like crack?

9/28/2010 3:21:09 PM

^
Where did you get "most" from?

9/28/2010 3:23:30 PM

Well, (most) people like Medicare and gun-control, otherwise the acts would have been repealed some time ago.

9/28/2010 3:44:20 PM

I'm not so sure about gun control

but indeed even the Teabaggers luv dem sum meddacair

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 3:47 PM. Reason : and want the government's hands out of it

9/28/2010 3:46:39 PM

^^, ^^^^

You're missing the entire point of my analogy and just restating your original statement that prompted my response.

Crackheads love crack...or sometimes not anymore, but they're hooked on it. In both cases, they become dependent on it and would get fucking pissed if you took it away, but that doesn't mean that crack is a beneficial sort of thing or that smoking it is a good idea.



add social security to the list, too.

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:17 PM. Reason : ]

9/28/2010 4:13:20 PM

Beneficaries of the welfare state usually do like it, even if it means trambling on future generations. The welfare state can only continue if future generations remain naive, or if they willfully sacrifice their current and future standard of living. Apparently, we as a society have accepted that people are not capable of planning for the future.

9/28/2010 4:24:21 PM

Quote :

"Apparently, we as a society have accepted that people are not capable of planning for the future."

Maybe, maybe not. Unfortunately, tyranny of the majority ensures that it doesn't matter.

9/28/2010 5:04:48 PM

Quote :

"one of the greatest presidents in the last 50 years"

Definitely in the top 10 of presidents since 1960

9/28/2010 6:39:47 PM

Quote :

"Democracy is a failure"

- theDuke866

9/28/2010 7:38:02 PM

No matter how badly you may want mob rule in this country, we are a republic.

9/28/2010 7:57:46 PM

Quote :

"Democracy is a failure"

- d357r0y3r

9/28/2010 8:09:43 PM

democracy only works if you have an educated populace.

9/28/2010 9:06:34 PM

IOW democracy never works?

Plato knew this nearly 3000 years ago.

9/28/2010 9:13:03 PM

One reason we should not have a true democracy:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/29/opinion/polls/main994766.shtml

9/28/2010 9:21:36 PM

lol right under that story

9/28/2010 9:53:19 PM

some people here think the only type of democracy is direct democracy

9/28/2010 10:59:49 PM

if the republic functions as it should there isn't a whole lot of difference.

9/28/2010 11:55:28 PM

Quote :

"LBJ did a lot of great things while running an awful war: -Voting rights act -Elementary and Secondary Education act -Immigration act of '65 -Medicare -Gun Control Act of '68 -Appointed the first black SC justice, Thurgood Marshall All Bush did was enact a tax cut without a spending cut."

Really? Because I'm sure glad to see that black families are better off economically than they were when the Great Society was passed, oh and our children are certainly at the top of the heap when it comes to grade-school education and Medicare isn't part of a triumverate of benefits that is going to prove a massive anchor on economic growth over the next 50 years (and if you're playing the GWV v LBJ game, Bush expanded Medicare more than any President since LBJ).

I mean you can trot all that shit out as "positives" but it is hard to make an argument that the net impact of any of them other than the VRA has been positive for the nation.

I mean I could bring out NCLB (a joint bill with a HUGE input from Senator Kennedy) as a "well intentioned" bill which has turned out to be a travesty, point to his colossal expansion of DoE as evidence of the "good" things GWB will get credit for, I could point towards the work he did to reach out to Hispanic voters and his very-un-Tea-Party-like stance on the issue of immigration. But no, he (deservedly) is regarded as a pariah for his mis-management of the Iraq war and should also be regarded as such for his thoughtless and expensive expansion of the Federal Debt, his role in encouraging the housing crisis and his role in feeding the Military Industrial Complex.

Likewise, LBJ should be acknowledged for all those things as well as creating a social structure which has permitted the utter collapse of inner-city black families to the point where only 1 in 3 black children is born to married parents.


Seriously, same fucking President (at least LBJ had the good taste to be born in Texas as opposed to just pretending to be from Texas) 40 years apart.

9/29/2010 10:46:58 AM

this is what i like about The Soap Box.

bigun makes a severely-retarded thread, but yet it somehow survives and turns into a thoughtful discussion.

of course, that's probably only because bigun hasn't returned to it since it's creation.

9/29/2010 1:41:33 PM

Quote :

"Really? Because I'm sure glad to see that black families are better off economically than they were when the Great Society was passed, oh and our children are certainly at the top of the heap when it comes to grade-school education and Medicare isn't part of a triumverate of benefits that is going to prove a massive anchor on economic growth over the next 50 years (and if you're playing the GWV v LBJ game, Bush expanded Medicare more than any President since LBJ)."

I get that you like to toot the anti-government horn whenever you see a chance, but you're stretching more than a band-aid on a bullet-wound. Some of these things are certainly controversial in 2010, to the point of needing review, but in the context of US history, these are generally considered positive achievements. Maybe in "Log-cabin Libertarians Bi-Weekly" LBJ will receive a lower rating.

Even if I grant that Medicare's insolvency means it was always a bad idea; even if I humor you on immigration reform, public education and basic gun-control laws, the voting rights act alone is more significant than any legislation passed by any subsequent president. It's a basic human right. If Bush did anything half that good, we might have a Republican president today.

[Edited on September 29, 2010 at 3:32 PM. Reason : I don't even really like LBJ]

9/29/2010 3:26:09 PM

You're missing the point. If the end result of the programs is going to be economic devastation, it doesn't matter that they were positive achievements at the time. All that matters is if they end up being a net positive, and I don't believe they will be. To go along with the crack addict analogy, I'm sure one would tell you that crack was great while they were hooked. It may have been detrimental to their finances, personal life, health, and other areas, but getting high was probably a good feeling.

[Edited on September 29, 2010 at 4:28 PM. Reason : ]

9/29/2010 4:25:13 PM

I understood the point, and the crack analogy. Here is what I thought of it:

Quote :

"I get that you like to toot the anti-government horn whenever you see a chance, but you're stretching more than a band-aid on a bullet-wound."

9/29/2010 5:08:11 PM

yes. medicare is a bandaid over a bullet wound. whats your point?

9/29/2010 5:16:14 PM

Quote :

"bigun makes a severely-retarded thread, but yet it somehow survives and turns into a thoughtful discussion."

bigun20 is the Sarah Palin of The Soap Box. He pops his head in, says something dumb as hell, and leaves everybody arguing over what just happened.

9/29/2010 6:19:59 PM

Quote :

"the voting rights act alone is more significant than any legislation passed by any subsequent president"

And it was largely passed in JFK's shadow. To say, "LBJ was President when it happened so he must get all the credit" is simplistic and ridiculous. I'll give him credit for signing it, yes, but for me to give him the kind of praise you're implying he deserves, you would have to make a compelling argument that JFK, had he not been shot, would have done differently. I'm not even convinced Nixon wouldn't have signed it. Yes the Southern Strategy was a reaction to the VRA but had he had the opportunity to take the political initiative at a time when Republicans were largely absent from the South, I suspect he would have.

Quote :

"but in the context of US history, these are generally considered positive achievements"

Who's history? What history? You're acting as if "history" is a monolithic discipline with unanimous consent. From a "social justice historian's" perspective you might be right with this statement. From an "economic historian's" perspective you'd arguably be wrong. Appealing to not even history but political sentimentality doesn't remotely quantify an achievement as positive.

Quote :

"I get that you like to toot the anti-government horn whenever you see a chance"

I'm not just tooting the horn because I like the sound it makes. The fact of the matter is that the welfare system, as it has been implemented over the last 40 years, has created a series of perverse incentives that have lead to the current situation. Couple this with the War on Drugs and our obsession with locking up non-violent drug offenders and you're left with the inner-city situation you have now. Every system is perfectly designed to produce the results it does and judging by the results it has produced in the very people it was supposed to help, the Great Society is an abject failure.




[Edited on September 30, 2010 at 10:43 AM. Reason : .]

9/30/2010 10:39:10 AM