My current car is more or less a POS (http://brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=598182) so i'm trying to get a new one. I have a rough price range in mind and based primarily on looks (and a very weak desire for a navigation system), and being punchier than my current car i've narrowed it down to these:

2006 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5 w/ Package 1
$13,900
52,386 miles

2003 BMW 325i Sport Package
$13,995
65,000

2005 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5
$14,288
67,791

2006 Saab 9-3 Aero Sport Sedan
$14,298
74,819

2007 Honda Accord EX V6 Sedan
$13,450
32,035

2007 Nissan Altima (has navigation)
$13,500
81,225

2004 Honda Accord EX V6 w/Navigation
$13,795
65,500

2004 Acura TL with Navigation
$13995
mileage not listed

2006 VW Passat 2.0T
$14999
44,000

I'm looking for something that will last me at least another 3-4 years (why i'm paying a little more for lower-mileage) without any real issues to have to worry about.

The Hondas seem like the "safe" choice just because i always hear about maintenance costs with the BMWs/Acuras, and I don't really hear good things about VW, reliability-wise. The Saab seems interesting, but i'm not sure how they generally are in terms of reliability. I'm generally under the impression that most non-sports sedans will run for a while with the regular oil changes/tire rotations/fluid checks, but a lot of people don't seem to think this. What does the Garage think?

9/7/2010 4:25:39 PM

I would go with the Accord. Some of the others have mileage that is just too high and you really dont know how hard they have been riden. The Accord does have 32,000 but being an Accord and having lower mileage it is probably not ragged out. Plus the 07 Accord is really nice.

9/7/2010 4:29:32 PM

Low mileage V6 Accord or pay the premium to own the BMW. The Saab would be kinda nice, but the BMW is the only one on that list worth paying higher repairs/maintenance costs on IMO.

9/7/2010 4:42:10 PM

As much as I like some BMW 3 series, I do not like the one you're thinking about.

I don't know why "sporty" sedan implies Accord V-6, I'd avoid that.

If it were me, I'd be looking at an Audi A3 w/DSG, sir.

9/7/2010 4:51:41 PM

tiny euro cars vs bigger japanese cars?

I'd take the TL depending on mileage

9/7/2010 6:12:29 PM

^ wow, it didn't occur to me there were no domestic manufacturers there... interesting...

^^ Hmm... at least on autotrader/craigslist, the A3s are a bit out of my price range, and i don't think i really want a hatchback. Do you know of any other good places to search?

9/7/2010 6:42:50 PM

I think you'll find the most bang for the buck from an independent owner, provided you have financing in order and can have a certified check issued to the present owner.

My personal opinion is always go Jap if you don't want to worry about expensive maintenance issues, and never buy VW unless you get a TDI with a manual transmission.

The only big ticket items you need to worry about with an Accord (especially late model V6 Accords; the 4-bangers have timing chains) is getting the timing belt and water pump replaced at the prescribed interval. I presently have 173k on my Accord 4, and have had to pay for damn little except for brakes and tires, etc.

I usually stay away from European due to the higher maintenance costs. But your results may vary.

9/7/2010 7:31:44 PM

^^^^ Although after reading about DSGs, i think i want a car with one… dammit

9/7/2010 7:34:22 PM

^ Not sure if a hatchback is your style, but you could probably find a used GTI (2.0t, dsg) for around 15. I was looking at those and a3s a while back (could find an a3 for about 17 after haggling, certified, 40-45k, if you willing to drive for a deal). The DSG is really nice for an auto and the 2.0t in those cars is rather peppy, genuinely 'sporty'.

Regarding the list, the Accord (07) is the best value, but, for 15 I would look at things like the TSX if you're looking for something with a dash of 'sport' that still looks nice inside and out.

[Edited on September 7, 2010 at 8:16 PM. Reason : apparently i cant type]

9/7/2010 7:59:47 PM

Does anyone know the long term costs of a DSG? Replacing one clutch is expensive enough, so I wonder what it costs to replace both when the time comes...though I'd imagine through simple logic that both clutches last twice as long?

From that list I'd go for the BMW and then TL. Is navigation really that important to you? I don't understand the point of those expensive systems when you can just get a portable Garman, Tom Tom, etc. I don't have any interest in the other cars b/c (no offense) they're too plain and boring to me. Though if reliability is your #1 concern I guess I'd go with the newest Accord you can find.

[Edited on September 7, 2010 at 11:43 PM. Reason : k]

9/7/2010 11:42:57 PM

^ any particular reason for the BMW?

I like the TL too, but one issue with TLs is that my older bro drives one, and his is newer/nicer... At least with another make/model, they wouldn't be directly comparable

9/8/2010 1:04:01 AM

i believe the DSG gets replaced as an assembly is something goes wrong, the clutches aren't replaceable. My sister has an 07 GLI 2.0T w/ DSG and the transmission has recently started making some strange noises.

9/8/2010 7:49:00 AM

Id take the accord. 2007

TL is prob high mileage

9/8/2010 9:57:22 AM

If you want a sporty & reliable sedan, consider an Acura TSX.

9/8/2010 10:08:20 AM

I'd second the TSX. A lot of fun to drive. Interior room sucks compared to an Accord, but the fit and finish is better. And the K24A2 engine is just. plain. FUN!

9/8/2010 10:11:53 AM

Quote :

"As much as I like some BMW 3 series, I do not like the one you're thinking about. I don't know why "sporty" sedan implies Accord V-6, I'd avoid that. If it were me, I'd be looking at an Audi A3 w/DSG, sir."

Which 3 series would you recommend?

9/8/2010 11:10:54 AM

I'm personally not a fan of 6 cylinder Hondas, and I would avoid anything that has a 'traditional' automatic (as in a torque converter). If I HAD to choose a Honda, it'd be the TSX, but really I'd rather be in any VW over that. With very few exceptions (Type-R models/the S2000) Hondas are too boring.

As for the BMW, the only 3 series sold in the U.S. I have zero interest in are probably the e46 323 and 325, though really a 325 with the sports pack is probably fine. I would still rather have an A3 DSG or something else from VW in those categories, but that's me.

9/8/2010 11:21:55 AM

vw makes garbage. worse than nissan imo. i know...hard to believe.

9/8/2010 12:26:53 PM

I'd go with the TL. But I would look for a model with lower miles. Plus that 325i interior looks a little too dated.

9/8/2010 12:54:07 PM

I would buy the saab. YEAH I SAID IT.

9/8/2010 3:20:59 PM

WTF

We haven't had the obligatory NMSJ post yet? Really? H8R falling down on the job.

If you're not looking specifically for a sports sedan, go with the Accord. Even better, test drive a 4 cylinder model--there's no reason in probably 95% of cases to get a V6 Accord. The 4-banger will still be more powerful than your old car. If that's not enough power for you, then go back to the V6, or maybe look at the TSX.

9/8/2010 4:45:19 PM

Why are used subarus so hard to find?

And no one has any more feelings/opinions about Saabs?

And I think i've ruled out the VW GTI... i looked at one today, and I don't think a hatchback really suits me.

9/8/2010 9:55:34 PM

Have you driven an Audi A3 DSG car? Do so please, just for perspective. For the love of all things sacred, please don't buy another slushbox Honda, especially if you care at all about driving the car. The only American market Honda from the past half decade is the Honda Civic Si (and it IS a great car) and the S2000.

I'm a fan of VWs, though late 90s/early 00 years were not a high mark in reliability, and I would avoid them. If you don't want a clutch pedal, in my opinion, the only game in town is VW/AUDI's DSG, BMW's SMG, Porsche's PDK and Ferrari's F1. Everything else has a torque converter, which means even though you may have little paddles on the steering wheel, whatever you're doing goes through a torque converter. If you don't care about the difference between a dual clutch, or electronically operated single dry clutch and a torque converter equipped (traditional) automatic, then feel free to disregard everything I've said.

9/8/2010 10:36:41 PM

there are a few more sequential manuals than that (and personally, I don't care for the early-generation BMW "SMG"--which isn't a real SMG at all)...

but yeah, torque converters are the devil.

although, I don't think he really care about how it drives (at least not enough to appreciate cars like you, I, and others would suggest). I'd probably just get a 4cyl Accord or Altima.

9/9/2010 8:39:38 AM

I'm rather certain you're mistaken on those Duke, what other gearbox is there, and how is BMW's "Sequential Manual Gearbox" not SMG? Yes it was rough, but it's still a proper gearbox as far as I'm concerned.

9/9/2010 9:35:23 AM

GET THE NISSAN YOU PUSSY


NMSJ

9/9/2010 10:03:10 AM

^^ Evo X, MR2 Spyder, Lamborghini, Nissan GTR, Lexus LFA...probably some other stuff I'm forgetting (maybe Mercedes AMG? I can't remember...probably some other exotics)

The current BMW SMG is a true sequential gearbox. The earlier version (like in the E46) did not have a torque converter, but it wasn't a true SMG, either. It was a conventional (like an "H-pattern") manual that happened to be (poorly, in my opinion) automated.

9/9/2010 10:28:43 AM

^^ I've pretty much ruled out the Altima at this point. (What does NMSJ mean...?)

9/9/2010 10:41:57 AM

All BMW SMGs have been... SMGs, including the ones not sold in the U.S., namely late e36 M3's. A conventional gearbox w/an automated clutch is exactly what an SMG is, what it isn't is the DCT (current, "non-conventional" box), as in a Dual Clutch Transmission. SMG wasn't, and never claimed to be a DCT. While we're at it, the SMG that BMW is used is fundamentally the same style as what Lamborghini, Ferrari used/uses. It is technically inferior to the current DCT, PDK and DSG from BMW themselves, Porsche and VW/AUDI.

As for other manufacturers not having double clutch or automated manual transmissions, you're right. For some reason, I was mentally stuck in late ~2008 land, Lambos, Evo X, NMSJ GTR, and the Lexus LF-A, absolutely have something cool, though certainly no Benzos, yet.

9/9/2010 10:50:04 AM

Nah, I understand that it never claimed to be DCT. I still maintain that it wasn't a true SMG. It is, as you stated, a conventional gearbox with automated clutch (and shifting).

Dual-clutch transmissions are a subset of sequential gearboxes. You can have a single-clutch sequential gearbox (MR2 Spyder, or almost any motorcycle, for example). The early BMW "SMG" is not one of these...it's no different (in terms of internal functionality) than a regular H-pattern manual. It just does everything for itself (except properly modulate the throttle so as to be smooth, haha).

9/9/2010 11:48:47 AM

Quote :

"(What does NMSJ mean...?) "

lol I had to ask TKE-Teg this the other day- apparently it means Nissan Makes Shitty Junk or something along those lines

9/9/2010 1:28:10 PM

Nissan
Makes
Some
Junk

9/9/2010 2:50:43 PM

^

you guys are catchin on

9/9/2010 3:00:01 PM

Quote :

"^ any particular reason for the BMW? I like the TL too, but one issue with TLs is that my older bro drives one, and his is newer/nicer... At least with another make/model, they wouldn't be directly comparable "

The reason for the BMW is b/c I'd want a fun car to drive. The TL is nothing more than a tarted up Accord but still better than your other choices. I agree with the others, check out a TSX...and an A3 (even if its slightly out of your range).

9/9/2010 3:07:51 PM

Splitting hairs, but isn't the TSX the Accord equivalent (basically the Euro-spec Accord) and the TL a different platform?

9/9/2010 3:52:02 PM

TL and Accord share some platform similarities.

The TSX is an entirely different car from US spec Accord. It IS, however, the European-spec Accord.

9/9/2010 3:59:46 PM

I think i've narrowed it down somewhat to looking at the Saab, BMW, TSX, and i'm going to at least test drive an A3 (there's a used one for sale in Cary i might could swing if i like it).

And i'm going to try to see if i can find a Subaru WRX hatchback, because i saw one of those on the road the other day and kind of liked it.

Quote :

"although, I don't think he really care about how it drives (at least not enough to appreciate cars like you, I, and others would suggest). I'd probably just get a 4cyl Accord or Altima."

I'm not as much of a car snob as most people here, but that's why i came here to ask... i wanted to hear the opinion of real car people. I have already learned more on what to look for thanks to this thread.

9/9/2010 5:06:10 PM

If you like WRX wagons and Saabs (and want the Japanese reliability instead of pure Swedish weirdness), may I suggest the Saabaru? (the 9-2x Aero). They make a non-turbo version, too...I think it's called the "Linear" or something. It's basically a WRX (or regular Impreza, for the non-turbo) wagon with different bodywork, Saab badging, and a few other things (more sound insulation, the better, STi steering rack, and revised suspension settings).

9/9/2010 5:15:03 PM

why did you rule out the TL in favor of the TL option? the TL is the more upscale of the two. (and as mentioned above, it's just a euro-spec accord)

9/9/2010 5:27:26 PM

^
1) People in this thread seem to like the TSX more
2) My brother drives a TL

9/9/2010 5:29:27 PM

I'd go with the TSX definitely. The TL is the more lux car, but honestly, I'd rather have something which is more attractive (IMO), drives much better, and is less cookie cutter.

The A3 is great, I think youll like it. The WRX wagon is nice from the outside, and in terms of performance on paper, but if youve been looking at TLs and BMWs, I think the interior is going to be too bargain bin for you. Im not an interior snob by any means, but I thought the wrx was a bit shitty. Never been in the Saabaru unfortunately.

9/9/2010 6:49:50 PM

Nothing mentioned in this thread is the same sort of car as the BMW. If you appreciate the difference, it's the one to get. If not, save your money.

*** I have not driven a 9-2x Aero. It's a very different car from a 330i, but I will concede that there is a chance that it could be the exception to my above statement...maybe it could be as satisfying to drive.

[Edited on September 9, 2010 at 6:57 PM. Reason : ok, maybe an A3 with Quattro, too. I'd have to drive one to be sure.]

[Edited on September 9, 2010 at 7:00 PM. Reason : ...but I doubt you'd get one for anywhere near your budget. Also, better choices at that $$$.]

9/9/2010 6:56:27 PM

I drove 2 A3s, and they were definitely nice cars.

The only oddity i noticed with both of them though is that in the automatic (non sport) mode, they would sometimes hardshift when accelerating from a turn or stoplight. Is this normal for the type of transmission they have, or does it indicate a problem?

I think IF i had a car like this, i’d probably drive it in manual mode most of the time anyway.

9/17/2010 9:44:17 PM

^what transmission does the car have? Torque converter automatic, or DSG?

9/17/2010 10:25:51 PM

^ they were both DSGs.

9/17/2010 10:48:27 PM

I have barely driven them in the auto mode, but if you work w/the car regarding the throttle, the shifts get smoother. Remember, DSG isn't really an "automatic" in the sense that word was used for the last 70 years...

9/18/2010 1:31:27 AM

When it comes to warranties, does it make sense to go with the dealer warranty?

They have a 3 year or 36,000 miles for $2500 which seems high-ish to me (1 year is like $2200).

This is on the A3 BTW for ~19k ish

[Edited on September 22, 2010 at 11:27 PM. Reason : ]

9/22/2010 11:19:40 PM

^when i bought my car I got the 6 year, 100k miles extended warranty (car had 4800 miles on it at time of purchase) and it only cost me $1400. With that in mind what the dealership is offering you sounds high.

9/23/2010 12:41:56 AM

I've yet to see a shoot out.

Buy a kia armanti.

9/23/2010 9:09:10 AM

So... i drove a TSX and a Saab 9-3 2.0t today, and the TSX seemed sluggish compared to both the Saab and the A3.

9/26/2010 1:26:05 AM