http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/magazine/22Adulthood-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Quote :

"We’re in the thick of what one sociologist calls “the changing timetable for adulthood.” Sociologists traditionally define the “transition to adulthood” as marked by five milestones: completing school, leaving home, becoming financially independent, marrying and having a child. In 1960, 77 percent of women and 65 percent of men had, by the time they reached 30, passed all five milestones. Among 30-year-olds in 2000, according to data from the United States Census Bureau, fewer than half of the women and one-third of the men had done so. A Canadian study reported that a typical 30-year-old in 2001 had completed the same number of milestones as a 25-year-old in the early ’70s."

Just today I happened to be talking with someone about how people seemed to be maturing more slowly than in the past, and then coincidentally I came across this article today that notes the same thing.

I can't decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing though. My gut reaction is that it's a bad thing, but if we are living on average 10 years longer (which I don't think is the case actually) then maybe this isn't so bad. What does TWW think?

8/22/2010 1:09:25 AM

all this means is people are getting married and having kids later in life. no big deal.

8/22/2010 1:12:13 AM

well, far more people (too many?) go to college nowadays, so it takes longer to finish school, and people are waiting until later to get married and/or have children (or not doing so at all). It's not like any of that is a mark of immaturity, irresponsibility, or unproductivity.

[Edited on August 22, 2010 at 1:15 AM. Reason : I mean, I'll be 31 in a couple of months. Never been married. Don't think I'm a fuck-up.]

8/22/2010 1:14:19 AM

^^ it goes a little deeper than that... at least read the first page and a half of the article before commenting

^ the structure of college has been changing too though, and both Obama and McCain campaigned on bolstering vocational education, if that tells us anything.

The article mentions economic changes, but doesn't go into detail, but you can guess what these might be... with the (formerly?) third world countries going through their industrial revolutions now, the US can't maintain dominance based on industrial production like we did in the past... we have to switch to something else, which is drifting towards "thinking" vs. "doing" based jobs.


[Edited on August 22, 2010 at 1:25 AM. Reason : ]

8/22/2010 1:22:19 AM

meh. i've reached all five milestones and i still dont feel like an adult. :-/


as to the "emerging adulthood" stage that this guy Arnett proposes, i agree with the classical dude (Lerner) who claims that it's not a universal or essential "stage"...

I think it probably seems like a stage because so many more people in current generation(s) are in this 'extended adolescence' than in generations previous, is probably due to this large number of people in the current generation(s) not having adequately completed one of the classical development stages, so their development is unfavorably altered. and at the time of early adulthood (mid 20s) they are still working out issues that should have already been resolved.

on an individual level, one would have to blame the parents. but since this seems so widespread, at least in current western culture, you have to look beyond and question if society is failing these kids, or at least failing the parents to be able to appropriately assist their children's development.






[Edited on August 22, 2010 at 1:48 AM. Reason : ]

8/22/2010 1:31:40 AM

Quote :

"In 1960, 77 percent of women and 65 percent of men had, by the time they reached 30, passed all five milestones"

Quote :

"A Canadian study reported that a typical 30-year-old in 2001 had completed the same number of milestones as a 25-year-old in the early ’70s."

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=average+lifespan+american
According to this website life expectancy for Americans during this time was extended by 7.2 years

Maybe its not people getting lazier as the one paragraph seems to imply. Maybe its just if you make life a little longer then you get to spend a little longer on each task/go more in depth.

8/22/2010 2:09:02 AM

I think its more that our generation wants to do more things before they get married and raise a family (planting roots and settling down somewhere). Between college taking more time and we want to 'live life' more before 'being a grown up', that takes up time.

Also if you factor the technology now vs 1960 (50 years ago, jesus), there are more ways to stay in touch with friends, entertain and 'live life' than there were previously.

8/22/2010 4:35:16 AM

I think much of this has to do with society moving away from a [liberty and] personal responsibility model.

In general, generations before ours operated on a model of, "Succeed on your own, possibly with a little help from friends and family, or fail, possibly even die.", but now we're heading full-speed towards a model of, "Succeed on your own, possibly with a little help from friends and family, or just sit back and the government will steal other's earnings so you can have free food, free housing, free college, free cell phone and free health care."

People have to be allowed to fail.
We are mammals in a closed biological system, following the rules of nature.
We are not the offspring of gods, to do whatever we want.

8/22/2010 7:50:52 AM

^^ I think that's part of it, too. I feel like, much more today than 40 years ago, we as people feel that the world is more accessible, that we can travel to other countries, see and do much more. The "shrinking world" (or really the ability for humans to travel/see/experience much more in a lifetime than was previously economically possible) has perhaps driven folks to put off "settling down" because they feel there are actually things to do. The impression I got from my father was, in the 70's, you either worked and made a bit of money and had nothing to do with it really... maybe road trip around the US a bit... or settled down and started a family, and that seemed like the more feasible option.

^ Also, while hoping not to turn this into another dumb liberal/conservative/welfare/"the poor and the mexicans are sucking the life out of this country" argument.. I would venture to say that a majority of people don't think like this. Sure, perhaps some do, but it doesn't account for an entire generation's change in life development. Additionally, welfare is way more restrictive and the money given out is significantly less than it was in the past (pre mid-90's, I think). So, anyone relying on welfare are doing it wrong.

[Edited on August 22, 2010 at 9:45 AM. Reason : ]

8/22/2010 9:44:03 AM

Does this prove that sociology is not a useless major?
I think a lot of it has to do with things being less competitive career-wise in the 60's. It's really hard to make a living and support a family without a college degree this day and age, and things are still pretty tough for a lot of people with just a bachelors. It all depends on what lifestyle you're trying to lead, but having a duel income certainly helps a lot.

8/22/2010 10:04:53 AM

i think its the milestone of marriage and kids that is probably the biggest separator. thats the only one i havent 'achieved' and have no plans for in the next few years (i'm 27).

8/22/2010 10:14:00 AM

The last four of those milestones are becoming increasingly difficult in a job market where the unemployment rate for 22 - 55 year old males is in excess of 25%

8/22/2010 2:11:26 PM

i almost got to the 4th milestone before the slut cheated on me. and i was 27 at the time. the last milestone i had no desire for until im in my mid-30s.

8/22/2010 2:18:33 PM

using that definition, i don't plan to ever become an adult

8/22/2010 2:20:58 PM

The milestones metric is ridiculous. Let's say an 18 year old in the Army accidentally knocks up his girlfriend and they marry in a panic. According to sociologists this couple will officially be mature adults in nine months. I'm 25, college educated, own a home and have a well-paying career, but going by the milestones I'm less mature than a teenager who was too dumb to wrap it up.

8/22/2010 3:50:19 PM

As has already been pointed out, this trend is mostly tied to the marriage and kids part. I see no problem in delaying that -- the research I've heard about suggests that marriages in the late 20s/early 30s are more likely to last than those that happen sooner, and kids born to parents who are in that age group tend to do better in school and are more emotionally and socially healthy.

And let's not forget that "completing school" means something different today than it has at earlier points. Nowadays that means "college" for a lot of people, not "high school," which necessarily delays that milestone by four years. And the rest of the milestones are partially dependent on this one -- it's damn hard to be financially independent as a full-time student. And anyone who wants to get married or have kids when they're in college is insane.

---

All of that said for the trend, though, I'll admit that I'm guilty as hell. If I'd wanted to, I could've accepted a job assistant managing a Petsmart. (I didn't because other circumstances forced me to move away from that location) It's not what I want to do, but it would've paid the bills, and I probably would've advanced by now. And if she'd been less crazy or I'd been more patient, I could've married the ex girlfriend, though I can't imagine I'd voluntarily knock her up yet.

But instead of doing those things, I'm having fun. I'm studying stuff I like in preparation to get a job I actually want to do. I get to party with my friends, go where I damn well want, play video games, and whatever else without a girl or a boss nagging me. I'm probably going to have those things for most of my life, but I see no need to rush them now just so I seem like I'm "maturing" as fast people who were born in 1930.

And no, I get zero money from the gubmint and very little from my family. Well, OK, I have government subsidized student loans but I'm going to have to pay that shit back so it doesn't count.

8/22/2010 5:02:50 PM

I am spending the remainder of my 20s preparing to hike the entire Appalachian Trail. After which I will come back and pursue steps four and maybe five. I've been financially independent since I was 19 and had a six year relationship so I don't feel like I've missed "too" much. Looking around and seeing my friends married and/or with kids I sometimes feel like I might have missed the boat, but I know that having kids would make it monumentally more difficult to take six months out of my life to hike 2,000+ miles at this juncture.

8/22/2010 5:23:28 PM

I'm 27, MrsCake is 23, and our kid wasn't exactly planned. We had planned on taking at least another year to find a job and get settles, but that didn't work out. I'll admit, it probably would have been a lot easier. And I'm a little jealous if you folks with houses and shit. I gotta pay off some school loans/car loan then maybe I can start working on that.

[Edited on August 22, 2010 at 5:50 PM. Reason : ]

8/22/2010 5:50:09 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

Quote :

"The average life expectancy in Colonial America was under 25 years in the Virginia colony"

Back then, Americans were so mature they were dead by the time they were 25. Society is falling from the golden age. Look how much personal responsibility we have abandoned since then!

Life expectancy:
2008: 78.4
1960: -69.8
---------------
8.6 years

So what if 30 year olds today are more like 25 years olds back when life was 8.6 years less. They still have time to get a bachelors degree, a masters degree, and work for 2 or 3 years, and still have as much life left to live afterward as the 25 years old from back then.

Unless maturity gap catches up with the increased life expectancy, then I am disinclined to believe that its solely a move away from the "personal responsibility model" and that all we need is a mindset more like "Succeed on your own, possibly with a little help from friends and family, or fail, possibly even die."

8/22/2010 6:53:43 PM

I also take exception to the notion that married + kids = maturity or that having a 9-5 desk job = maturity. Life is a fluid dynamic and should be thought of as the pursuit of happiness rather than merely capital gain.

[Edited on August 22, 2010 at 7:59 PM. Reason : derp]

8/22/2010 7:32:09 PM

Becoming financially independent (starting ones career) is not inclusive of getting married and having children. For some career paths this can even be counter-productive. So I do not see a problem with today's young adults delaying marriage or child bearing.

Where I do understand this article having issues with is today's 20 year old becoming boom-a-rang children, not leaving home and/or gaining financial independence. My g/f brother for example just graduated and has moved back home with mom/dad with no active plans to seek meaningful employment (currently a bus boy at some restaurant). He is content at staying at home with his parents, smoking pot with his unemployed friends, and see's working a real job as "giving into the system." Never once did I ever entertain the idea of "oh well if I don't get a job after graduation I can just go live with mom and dad."

Quote :

"Life if a fluid dynamic and should be thought of as the pursuit of happiness rather than merely capital gain."

I agree but it seems there are to many anecdotes of people i have heard content with staying on mom's couch or having uncle sam pick up the check. My roommates friend, delayed getting a job for a month so that she could apply for another 6-months of food stamps.

[Edited on August 22, 2010 at 7:51 PM. Reason : h]

8/22/2010 7:48:36 PM

there's plenty of people out there with loads of cash acting like irresponsible teenagers

8/22/2010 9:09:25 PM

I have thought about this as well.
I am 32 and have everything but marriage and kids. I also feel like I should have accomplished more at this age.
I feel like I should be better then my parents were at this age, in turn its quite the opposite.My parents told me its harder now then it was before...being "grown up"

8/22/2010 9:17:33 PM

<---

Quote :

"there's plenty of people out there with loads of cash acting like irresponsible teenagers"

Y'all should have seen how high I jumped my jet ski today. I could have jumped over a bass boat if there had been one there.

I think I'm going to wait until 40 and then marry a 25 year old who makes me feel young.

[Edited on August 22, 2010 at 9:45 PM. Reason : l]

8/22/2010 9:45:06 PM

Quote :

"The whole idea of milestones, of course, is something of an anachronism; it implies a lockstep march toward adulthood that is rare these days. Kids don’t shuffle along in unison on the road to maturity. They slouch toward adulthood at an uneven, highly individual pace. Some never achieve all five milestones, including those who are single or childless by choice, or unable to marry even if they wanted to because they’re gay. Others reach the milestones completely out of order, advancing professionally before committing to a monogamous relationship, having children young and marrying later, leaving school to go to work and returning to school long after becoming financially secure."

So they use the milestones as PROOF that today's kids are shiftless whippersnappers. Then they straight up admit that the milestones are a flimsy way to measure adulthood. WTF? I'll admit I didn't read all 10 pages of the article but that sounds like bad reporting to me. A better title for the article would be "Twentysomethings Delay Marriage," or "Foolish Sociologists Use Outdated Maturity Metric"

8/22/2010 9:53:30 PM

How much debt did the average twenty-something have in the 60s compared to today?

8/22/2010 10:06:39 PM

I have no desire to have children and my desire for marriage is steadily decreasing, so I guess I'll never be an adult.


Stupid sociologists

8/23/2010 1:20:25 AM

my daddy didn't wanna settle down until he was 36 (but he ended up becoming a daddy at my age, 25)

he may get to live vicariously through me lol

8/23/2010 3:52:52 AM

please guys you're in your twenties

8/23/2010 9:50:40 AM

I blow all of this shit out of the water. But then maybe I'd be on a much faster track if I had made better decisions early in life.

8/23/2010 10:14:47 AM

There are better birth control options, of course people are going to have kids later or not at all.

I guess making the decision that I'd enjoy a Ferrari/Ducati/second house more than a child makes me immature by their standards.

8/23/2010 10:32:43 AM

Women who have yet to fall victim to their biological clocks, ITT

I'm AstralAdvent and I approved this message.

8/23/2010 11:27:14 AM

message_topic.aspx?topic=502096

8/23/2010 11:58:44 AM

I accredit most of these happenings to the ease of accessing pr0n via the web and more people realizing how dumb religion is.



Both very good things

8/23/2010 12:14:04 PM

Didn't read it all, so this was probably mentioned already, but I imagine that the recession is playing/will play a large role for the next few years. As more and more people pour out of college, ready to enter the work force, but are unable to find any work, they'll either take the opportunity to do more schooling, do some traveling, or move back in with their parents. Most likely the latter, as the first two require money which a lot of people don't have.

Hell, I thought for the longest time that's how it was suppose to work. I believed in the whole "you have to have a job waiting for you out of college and start the rest of your life" thing. I thought that failure to do this was indicative of failure in yourself. I wonder how many other people also used to think this way, or continue to do so.

8/23/2010 2:41:46 PM

See, in 20 or 30 years this is going to be "the norm" and some academic asshat is instead going to write about kids who are growing up too fast and getting married at age 25

8/24/2010 11:19:44 PM

Yup, I'm really looking forward to buying another car rather than having a kid. The not married, not having kids thing really doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. However, I can't even fathom living with parents post graduation. Shit, if I could have I would have had an apartment at 16, and I love my parents, but independence and self-sufficiency are something necessary to be considered an adult. The fact that 22-30 year olds are moving back in with mom and dad boggles my mind.

8/25/2010 6:11:49 AM

I believe our developmental stages are just getting longer and we're taking longer to complete all the milestones in a shit economy. By the traditional counts, I've barely gotten out of the gate: I'm 27, back in school for nursing, and don't have house, marriage or child. However, I've been financially independent since graduation for the past 5 years, have a long-term live in boyfriend, and 2 dogs, so I just think the definitions are changing for what constitutes an adult.

+ Many people our age can't afford a house or marriage just yet in many areas of the country.

8/25/2010 7:41:12 AM

I think the transition in women's roles in the work place needs focus as well. In that age less women were going to work and those who did work did not necessarily pursue "careers". However, in contemporary times women taking their careers as seriously as men is more common and many women decide that they would like a period of independence before marriage and wish to delay children so that they can advance their careers first.

8/25/2010 9:37:40 AM

I think the transition in women's roles in the work place needs focus as well. In that age less women were going to work and those who did work did not necessarily pursue "careers". However, in contemporary times women taking their careers as seriously as men is more common and many women decide that they would like a period of independence before marriage and wish to delay children so that they can advance their careers first.

8/25/2010 9:37:40 AM

^^^ "cant afford a marriage"

RLY? Whats to afford?

Sounds like an excuse to stay non-committal ... which I have no problem with .. just call it what it is and don't make excuses for it.

8/25/2010 10:55:35 AM

"Can't afford a marriage"- I'm talking about people who want to have a larger wedding and invite more than the justice of the peace, and whose parents can't afford to chip in. Of course, you can get hitched that way, or seriously keep the expense down, but most marriages are going to cost something by the time you've invited several people, food, clothing, maybe alcohol, etc.

I helped a good friend plan her wedding, and they ended up spending >$2000, even though he made the wedding rings, she made her dress, they got married at their house, got discounted food from the bakery she managed, etc.

8/25/2010 12:45:52 PM