What do you think? Do you support the Jewish people or not?

Here's an interesting documentary on the subject that I thought was worth sharing. Please embed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qR1h-H7vNU

7/17/2010 11:33:19 AM

Quote :

"Do you support the Jewish people or not?"

What kind of question is this? I support all people, Jewish or otherwise.

I'm on part 3 now, and the tone so far seems to be that anti-semitism is over-blown...

[Edited on July 17, 2010 at 12:41 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2010 12:21:53 PM

About to head out, I'll come back to this thread though.

But on the topic I thought it was worth reminding people that even here on tdub we had someone spend 4 years making threads about the "ruling Jewish establishment is intent on destroying the white race"
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_search.aspx?type=topic§ion=4&searchstring=&username=salisburyboy&usertype=match&sortby=date&sortorder=descending&page=

7/17/2010 2:11:21 PM

^ I obviously don't agree with any part of the documentary, but I still thought it was interesting and share-worthy.

7/17/2010 2:22:28 PM

Death to Your Threads

7/17/2010 3:28:26 PM

^^^I lolled more at the "non-white immigration to white Western countries" that overthrower was worried about back on CB

7/17/2010 5:09:22 PM

^^ I admit I LOL-ed a bit at that one.

7/17/2010 6:22:33 PM

as promised, i came back to this thread, watched all of the clips which was like an hour and a half total

the video is very obviously cut to a slant towards the point it wanted to make. down to scenes where a guy who was missing from his office which adds nothing to the film other than to show that maybe the ADL has a slacker and or maybe the dude was in the bathroom, but it has nothing to do with the films point. the scene at a graveyard where a women starts sentence but doesn't finish, it makes her look like a silly old lady but her comment wasn't on topic. the music re-enforces several moments where people look silly. like why show kids acting crazy in a hotel, it makes them look bad for misbehaving, but has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

and its not hard to make kids look stupid on tv either. he opens the video by saying i don't know much the issue so i decided i need to go out and learn. then he seems to paint a picture that kids doing the same thing, trying to learn about the issue on a field trip, is a bad thing. how many kids go on this field trip? it was certainly filmed in a way to imply all kids are getting indoctrinated but i don't recall a specific % of the population that is involved. i mean is it like the standard middle school field trip to a state capital that lots of kids around the state go to, or is it more like filming kids at the school of science & math and implying that's the standard educational background for most kids in nc?

he frequently jumps back and forth through time and location in the film, but in the instance of when he was looking for an incident to report on he said turns out there was nothing and he goes on to something else, and only comes back later to say turns out i found something leaving the viewer with a first impression that there was nothing. that could have easily been cut to say it took me x amount of time to find an incident rather than i found no incidents. and so many cases he skips over things and narrates them to save time, but he gives full time to hearing the lady list all the people wanting time off (for holidays). and in general the amount of time he offers to different things seems suspect if he's going for fairness.

and there it was the moment of, paraphrasing here, "it occurred to me that if jewish kids learn about the holocaust, then it will desensitize them to real suffering, so i decided to ask them to see if they agreed" which in a sense in the way he actually worded it makes it sound like he's only pursing an objective curiosity, when he very clearly is continuing with his goal with this presentation. and there were plenty of moment where he asked confused/like he didn't understand what was being talked about b/c he was just an objective individual journalist. he chooses his wording in narrating the film very carefully to make his point too rather than in a neutral documentary sort of way. he puts the clip of the guy saying perpetuating this culture of death is what makes jewish people an abnormal people, and shortly thereafter moves to clips of lots of girls crying (over things like seeing dead baby shoes etc). i mean we all know even with non push polls that word order can make a difference, and the scene order felt very intentional. and this is the same guy we're trusting to translate words in an accurate way when there is obviously room for subjectivity in translation, which maybe he did a great job, i just dont know.

this is not at all saying he didn't have some valid questions being asked (like does a particular representative/lobbying organization behave like a lobbying organization too much in trying to get more funding, & should the jewish people as a whole move away from never forget on towards a future orientation, & questions of victimization etc), but for a lot of it, it really felt like he was trying to present it as an objective documentary rather than trying to make the point he wanted to make. at the same time i realize that unbalanced documentaries aren't uncommon

Quote :

"Do you support the Jewish people or not?"

i agree with moron in that this question is a little too broad to elicit meaningful responses

7/18/2010 4:52:32 AM

My problem isn’t so much with anything he said, its mostly with the way he presented it as “I’m curious about this topic so I’m going to do some open minded investigation to learn more” rather than “I already have a belief that I want to support with my film.” His motivating factor could be the latter and it not change the validity of his statements or questions, but that he tries to present it as the former when it is pretty obviously the latter seems disingenuous. And that disingenuousness leads me to question how much I can trust the video editing, the provided translations, the chosen interviewees as an accurate and fair representation of the investigation, and so forth.

7/18/2010 5:30:16 AM

^
I got the impression that the film was made to include Israeli viewers, so I would not think that the translations would be quite so suspect.

I was somewhat surprised in part 2 at the girls' reactions to the three men on the bench in Poland.

The film reminded me of an article I read shortly after the flotilla incident, written by Jonathan Cook who lives in Jerusalem:

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19637

Quote :

"One commentator in Israel’s Haaretz newspaper summed up the feelings of Israelis brought to the fore by the flotilla episode as the “helplessness of a poor lonely victim, confronting the rage of a lynch mob and frantically realising that these are his last moments”. This “psychosis”, as he called it, is not surprising: it derives from the sanctified place of the Holocaust in the Israeli education system. The Holocaust’s lesson for most Israelis is not a universal one that might inspire them to oppose racism, or fanatical dictators or the bullying herd mentality that can all too quickly grip nations, or even state-sponsored genocide. Instead, Israelis have been taught to see in the Holocaust a different message: that the world is plagued by a unique and ineradicable hatred of Jews, and that the only safety for the Jewish people is to be found in the creation of a super-power Jewish state that answers to no one. Put bluntly, Israel’s motto is: only Jewish power can prevent Jewish victimhood."

[Edited on July 18, 2010 at 9:19 AM. Reason : ]

7/18/2010 9:19:01 AM

Quote :

"The Holocaust’s lesson for most Israelis is not a universal one that might inspire them to oppose racism, or fanatical dictators or the bullying herd mentality that can all too quickly grip nations, or even state-sponsored genocide. Instead, Israelis have been taught to see in the Holocaust a different message: that the world is plagued by a unique and ineradicable hatred of Jews, and that the only safety for the Jewish people is to be found in the creation of a super-power Jewish state that answers to no one. Put bluntly, Israel’s motto is: only Jewish power can prevent Jewish victimhood.""

What if the second paragraph is actually true? The wording of the two options presupposes that the first paragraph is the right and true interpretation, but he offers no supporting argument for such a presupposition.

7/18/2010 3:44:01 PM

Quote :

"What if the second paragraph is actually true?"

It’s not… but what if it is?

7/18/2010 5:48:25 PM

I believe it is.

7/18/2010 7:25:29 PM

Would it be antisemitic of my to believe that they should have carved out a bit of Germany to give to the Jewish people? ...

7/18/2010 7:33:38 PM

Zionism as a political movement predates nazi germany by more than half century.

7/18/2010 8:03:40 PM

what do you mean to imply? such a statement can be interpreted several ways

7/18/2010 8:21:00 PM

My statement?

7/18/2010 8:36:37 PM

Well it seems rather meaningless, unless you're trying to imply something. What significance do you place on the age of zionism vs. nazi germany?

[Edited on July 18, 2010 at 8:49 PM. Reason : ]

7/18/2010 8:48:57 PM

I was commenting on:

Quote :

"Would it be antisemitic of my to believe that they should have carved out a bit of Germany to give to the Jewish people?"

A common misconception is that Israel is a direct result of the Holocaust, even though it was mandated by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which itself is a result of the zionist movement that began in the late 19th century. A large number of jews had already immigrated to British Palestine prior to german expansion and persecution of jews in Europe.

7/18/2010 8:52:25 PM

But, there is no doubt that the holocaust threw public acceptance over the top ... I haven't seen another historical case where a people thrown out in 72 AD decide they should get their land back.


[Edited on July 18, 2010 at 9:17 PM. Reason : *~<]BO]

7/18/2010 9:14:09 PM

"a people thrown out"?

The jewish people have lived in the middle east for thousands of years

[Edited on July 18, 2010 at 9:18 PM. Reason : ]

7/18/2010 9:17:30 PM

Wikipedia - Jewish Diaspora:

Quote :

"Following the 1st century Great Revolt and the 2nd century Bar Kokhba revolt, the destruction of Judea exerted a decisive influence upon the dispersion of the Jewish people throughout the world, as the centre of worship shifted from the Temple to Rabbinic authority. Some Jews were sold as slaves or transported as captives after the fall of Judea, others joined the existing diaspora, while still others remained in Judea and began work on the Jerusalem Talmud. For those Jews in the diaspora, they were generally accepted into the Roman Empire, but with the rise of Christianity, restrictions grew. Forced expulsions and persecution resulted in substantial shifts in the international centers of Jewish life to which far-flung communities often looked; although not always unified due to the Jewish people's dispersion itself. Jewish communities were thereby largely expelled from Judea and sent to various Roman provinces in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa."

7/18/2010 9:35:02 PM

Wikipedia - Jewish Diaspora:

Quote :

"Following the 1st century Great Revolt and the 2nd century Bar Kokhba revolt, the destruction of Judea exerted a decisive influence upon the dispersion of the Jewish people throughout the world, as the centre of worship shifted from the Temple to Rabbinic authority. Some Jews were sold as slaves or transported as captives after the fall of Judea, others joined the existing diaspora, while still others remained in Judea and began work on the Jerusalem Talmud. For those Jews in the diaspora, they were generally accepted into the Roman Empire, but with the rise of Christianity, restrictions grew. Forced expulsions and persecution resulted in substantial shifts in the international centers of Jewish life to which far-flung communities often looked; although not always unified due to the Jewish people's dispersion itself. Jewish communities were thereby largely expelled from Judea and sent to various Roman provinces in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa."

7/18/2010 9:42:26 PM

so important he posted it twice!

7/18/2010 10:47:49 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_%28film%29 <== watch

7/19/2010 9:23:15 AM

Quote :

"Do you support the Jewish people or not?"

What kind of special support do Jews need that is different from everyone else? They seem to be doing alright for themselves.

7/19/2010 9:26:07 AM

Quote :

"The film examines whether 'anti-Semitic' has become an all purpose label for anyone who criticizes Israel"

heh

7/19/2010 9:26:47 AM

Quote :

"But, there is no doubt that the holocaust threw public acceptance over the top"

But, public acceptance had absolutely nothing to do with it. I think you're mixing up the history of Israel with American Idol.

7/19/2010 2:45:09 PM

Quote :

"What kind of special support do Jews need that is different from everyone else? "

And bolded for great justice!

7/19/2010 3:18:38 PM

I mean, would you agree that african americans needed some special support in the aftermath of slavery and Jim Crow laws?

7/19/2010 3:26:19 PM

Quote :

"What kind of special support do Jews need that is different from everyone else?"

7/19/2010 3:27:18 PM

White man gave my folks tax free casinos and terrible land. Thanks for your brand of "special support"!

7/19/2010 3:34:57 PM

Quote :

"I mean, would you agree that african americans needed some special support in the aftermath of slavery and Jim Crow laws?"

African Americans whom were directly wronged by the U.S. government should receive reparations from the U.S. government. Descendants of said African Americans should not on the merit of the wrongdoing toward their ancestors.

So....where does that leave us regarding the Jewish people? Did we enslave them during the time in which any of them are still alive? Or was comparing Jewish people to U.S. slaves a false analogy?

7/19/2010 3:39:15 PM

We should give them the same amount of love and care our Founding Fathers' generation (and a few previous) gave them. Isn't that how we're supposed to be running things, Mr. Glenn Beck?

7/19/2010 3:44:37 PM

I'm pretty sure most Jews know the difference between what is legit anti-Semitism and what isn't.

The problem is that when a lot of your religious education boils down to "things are going for pretty well for the Jews and then (slavery/genocide/etc.) happened" it can form a special sort of mentality that the other shoe is always about to drop.

Combine that with a people who are stereotypically neurotic and you wind up with some interesting results. The biggest problem is that because of the Holocaust, there are a decent amount of Jews who feel comfortable crying wolf because they're pretty sure they won't get ignored again.

7/19/2010 3:50:30 PM

Sometime I wonder, had the genocide been [mostly] of some non-Judeo-Christian people, if we would have cared as much...

[Edited on July 19, 2010 at 3:52 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2010 3:52:08 PM

No, see Darfur.

7/19/2010 3:54:42 PM

If the question is why does Israel get special support? I dont know. I mean i guess theres benefit from a theoretical friend in the middle east, but i dont think in reality we're getting what we're paying for.

Do they qualify for special assitance by being jews? Not in my eyes, but there are plenty of christians in the US who view them as christians who haven't yet accepted jesus christ as their savior. Combine that with them being surrounded by turrist muslims, and theres the bulk of the US support base for israel. The idea of jews as a "race" or culture is not a mainstream US concept.

7/19/2010 4:02:13 PM

Quote :

"Sometime I wonder, had the genocide been [mostly] of some non-Judeo-Christian people, if we would have cared as much..."

Quote :

"No, see Darfur."

right.

7/19/2010 4:02:44 PM

And its that religious association that makes people jump directly from me saying "well i dont think the us should support israel" to "hurrr durrr antisemite".

7/19/2010 4:04:16 PM

Do you mind comparing and contrasting the number of deaths and the population percentages of that race (not nationality!) that were killed in Darfur?

All genocides are horrific, but they are not all equal in scale and horror.

7/19/2010 4:05:42 PM

Darfur is in the hundreds of thousands, but i guess only when genocide gets above x people its worth doing something about? Africa is full of bullshit that happens all the time and we dont give any fucks because if theres anything we care about less than a brown its a black.

7/19/2010 4:12:17 PM

Quote :

"Sometime I wonder, had the genocide been [mostly] of some non-Judeo-Christian people, if we would have cared as much..."

Nope. Take Solinari's comment, for instance:

Quote :

""a people thrown out"? The jewish people have lived in the middle east for thousands of years"

You know who else lived somewhere for thousands of years, but we're not trying to establish and maintain a state for? Native Americans. The "people of Israel" didn't live in that area for a long period of time. It wasn't until the British Mandate that the state of Israel was established again, and then Jews started moving back in. Now, years later, we're acting like the people that lived there before (Palestinians) are somehow intruding by wanting to live on that land.

It doesn't really matter to me who is entitled to the land. Israel and Palestine can both legitimately claim that the land is theirs. Claims don't mean anything if you can't back them up with firepower, though. Obviously, Israel has the backing of the United States, mostly because we have a bunch of religious nutcases living here. We shouldn't be helping them or giving them money. We can barely pay the interest on our own debt. Israel has no incentive to make peace right now.

7/19/2010 4:15:03 PM

The appropriate response to a genocide suffering population: Destroy the genocide inducing organization.

^unless you're doing the genociding of course.

[Edited on July 19, 2010 at 4:15 PM. Reason : us]

7/19/2010 4:15:26 PM

You can look at the Armenian Genocide (though it was a christian genocide), but it's still only a small fraction of the number of people killed during the Holocaust.

7/19/2010 4:16:03 PM

Quote :

"Obviously, Israel has the backing of the United States, mostly because we have a bunch of religious nutcases living here"

What is funny is that I'm pretty most of those "religious nutcases" happen to be Christians.

7/19/2010 4:18:33 PM

i mean, sometimes genocide is justified, right? Like when they have stuff i want.

7/19/2010 4:18:55 PM

hurp, wrong thread

[Edited on July 19, 2010 at 4:21 PM. Reason : a]

7/19/2010 4:20:52 PM

Quote :

"What is funny is that I'm pretty most of those "religious nutcases" happen to be Christians."

Plenty of secular nutcases in America exporting money and ideology to Israel as well

7/19/2010 4:42:36 PM

Just to keep the theme of, "but what about X population? don't you care about them?" I figured I would bring up Pakistan, India, and Kashmir.... Which is pretty similar to the whole Israel/Palestine/Jerusalem problem except liberals don't get riled up about it because there are no Jews to hate in that situation.

7/19/2010 4:49:02 PM