Have any of you taken and passed? Wanted to take a shot at it this October, but didn't really know where to start. Any good suggestions on study materials? What did you take to the test with you? Did you take any type of "exam prep" course?

I live in Gboro, and was thinking about the NC A&T PE prep class.

7/8/2010 11:05:42 AM

This thread is relative to my interests as I will be taking this next year. Unfortunately I have nothing of value to add to the topic right now as I haven't started looking heavily into this since I am a full year behind you on this. But maybe I can ask around and see what some other people I work with have to say about it.

7/8/2010 1:15:24 PM

If you do ask around, be sure to ask people that have taken/passed it in recent years. I don't know when exactly they changed the format, but at some point it shifted from open ended 2nd half questions to a full multiple choice question test. Therefore if you ask a manager or someone in their 40s, they probably took the open ended version which would be a different type of studying in my mind.

7/8/2010 1:39:25 PM

the last guy in my office to take it said he used lindeburg's study materials. he passed the first time.

http://www.amazon.com/Mechanical-Engineering-Reference-Manual-Exam/dp/1591260493/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277496427&sr=8-1

i'm intending to sit for the exam next spring, so i need to think about picking up the reference manual and the practice problems...

7/8/2010 10:22:26 PM

^^ thanks but yea I have talked to a few people and realized that. Unfortunately most of the guys in my department are over 45 besides myself and another guy who is 1 year older than myself. I'm hoping to get a lot of tips from that guy after he takes it this fall

^I have heard good things about that. A few people I talked to didn't like it but you'll probably always have people that don't like something.

7/15/2010 9:36:23 AM

I used the Lindenburg manual for Civil Engineering.

The review manual itself is a good study guide. However, I bought all the supplemental practice problems (also by Lindenburg) and they were laughable. The problems were so hard it was ridiculous. It's not even a matter of "If you can do these, the PE exam will be a breeze". The questions were just ridiculous...I couldn't do any of them...they were so hard they were not even worth the time to attempt to work through and try to understand them because it took you 2 hrs to figure out how to do 1 problem

I also passed the exam the first time i took it.

[Edited on July 23, 2010 at 12:35 AM. Reason : ]

7/23/2010 12:34:19 AM

I took the electrical power discipline of the PE in 2006. Here's some generic stuff I can offer that may help.

buy the hard copy practice exam from NCEES, and then buy the online practice test from NCEES and print it out. solve the questions, list the book and page of the formulas you used to answer the problem beside your answers, and put all of this into a binder to take with you into the test. You'll see very similar questions on the test, and this will really help you to answer the questions as quickly as possible.

You will need to use excellent time management to pass this test. You will run out of time if you don't skip around an answer questions in the easiest order. I made three passes through the test; the first pass was to identify questions that I could answer with no reference materials because it was simple or had a gimmie (like only one negative answer and the answer had to be negative.) During that pass, I marked the questions I knew how to answer but needed to look up a value or formula to calculate. After the first pass, I went back and answered these easy questions on the second pass. My third pass through the test was saved for questions that I wasn't exactly sure about and needed to research. By this time, I knew that I had answered everything that I would have regretted leaving blank if I ran out of time. The test is designed to allow you about 6 minutes per question, but by working it in this format I had had answered the easy questions quickly and now had almost 20 minutes left per remaining question. I was always the first person to finish my tests in college, and the PE exam took me the full time to complete. I did have time to double check all of my answers though before time was called.

7/25/2010 3:24:46 PM

bump

2/27/2011 9:02:54 PM

anyone have an opinion on whether it is worth the money to subscribe to this site for sample questions?

http://ppi2pass.com/ppi/ECMain_pg_infoME.html

from what i understand, lindeburg's crazy-involved sample problems are not representative of the actual PE exam these days, but the free sample questions on that power to pass site seem crazy easy.

i'm not terribly worried about taking the mechanical PE in april, but i'd like to work some problems that are actually similar to the test...

2/27/2011 9:08:01 PM

I'm planning to take this in October so let me know what you find useful for MEs.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 8:26 AM. Reason : .]

2/28/2011 8:25:44 AM

What are the prerequisites to take this? I passed the FE in college.

2/28/2011 12:09:33 PM

Rough answer: FE and 4 years of work under other licensed PEs

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 12:43 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2011 12:43:26 PM

Starting the application process now so that I have plenty of time.

3/8/2011 3:50:29 PM

good call. i had to twist arms to get people to spend all of 10 minutes filling out my recommendations.

3/8/2011 6:45:34 PM

The whole application process has a lot of gray areas in it. With the four years of required experience, it really just has to be before the registration deadline, however I have heard some of the reviewers will reject your submission if, when you submit the application, you haven't reached 4 years even if you will by June 15th (this is coming from the SC board for me)

IE, for me, my 4 years is June 11th and the application deadline is June 15th. The advice given to me is to overnight my application on June 10th so that it is there by Monday June 13th which is after my 4 year anniversary but before the 15th. Seems like it would be a ton easier if they just said you qualified if your 4 years was achieved before the deadline and that you could apply whenever.

The reason this gets tricky is that if I do my references now, I am only at 3 years 9 months based on the date that people would be completing and signing the form. I had a friend get his rejected and he had to resubmit because his references were done at 3 years 9 months. They told him to resubmit after 3 years 11 months.

This could just be the SC board being idiots of course but it just adds a layer of complexity to the process.

3/8/2011 9:24:41 PM

This is NOT chembob, this is his wife (knowseauto) who doesn't have the credentials to post in Old School....despite having graduated before Chembob. Anyway....

Quote :

"This could just be the SC board being idiots of course"

Not just SC. The same thing holds for FL. I reach my 4 year mark on 8-8-11 (provided we stay here in FL until then) which means that even though I will have my 4 years in well before the actual test in October, I am not eligible but have to wait for the Spring exam. I am already dreading having to hunt down my previous employer to get him to sign off on my experience. I haven't seen him since the office closed in CT.

3/9/2011 6:57:10 AM

^^ I know i started June18 FML.

Cant take in NC as a non-residence but during the research i see their application deadline is in August. WTF SC?

3/9/2011 12:17:16 PM

I think for me (since I am taking Mechanical with HVAC focus in the afternoon), I am going to buy the latest edition of the Lindeburg Mechanical Engineering Reference Manual along with an NCEES "PE Mechanical: HVAC and Refrigeration Sample Questions and Solutions" which has 40 general AM ME questions and solutions and 40 afternoon HVAC questions and solutions.

I plan to study the MERM pretty thoroughly and take lots of notes, add sticky tabs etc. and then use the NCEES practice exam problems to test my knowledge and go through the solutions step-by-step for stuff I get wrong (which will probably be a lot at first )

We'll see how this approach works I guess.

4/2/2011 11:23:35 AM

^ Have you done any major design projects recently? I was told by my coworkers (who have a 100% first time pass rate) that their best 'study tool' was actually having done a significant design project start to finish before the exam, specifically a hospital.

4/2/2011 4:06:40 PM

yes and no. I mean the project I got moved to 6 months ago is not much of a design phase; it is more of a procurement job unfortunately (waiting for the next big design phase project to come in). I have done a good bit of design here, but it has been pretty focused so while I am sure it will help me a lot in some areas there are plenty of ME areas I never touch at work.

4/2/2011 6:05:38 PM

Quote :

"there are plenty of ME areas I never touch at work."

That is why I am dreading the taking the PE! I think you have a solid plan of attack for it. Have you done the LEED AP exam, CxA, or any of the ASHRAE exams?

4/2/2011 6:38:33 PM

there is a nice App for itouch and Iphone for the ME-PE. flash cards that cover all three afternoon subjects.

big key is to stay calm, they may throw a lot at you. like questions that have a lot of info, but you might not need but one or two things. key is to recognize the fundamental parts of the problems in the morning session.

This is my second time taking it. I didn't study or review and was unprepared and freaked out when i got in there. which is why i'm taking it again this Friday.

Things that might be fair game, our Humidification (adiabatic Saturation), and refrigeration cycles and properties, also all kinds of psychart stuff.

Good luck to all that are taking it. if you don't have MERM express ship it and review it.

[Edited on April 3, 2011 at 11:38 AM. Reason : ?]

4/3/2011 11:37:39 AM

ASHRAE fundamentals book is a good reference tool to take to the test.

4/3/2011 2:44:52 PM

Quote :

"Rough answer: FE and 4 years of work under other licensed PEs"

someone recently told me that the 4 years experience doesn't necessarily have to be under a licensed PE. He told me that I could essentially write a report documenting/detailing my work experience and that if they judge it to be sufficient then I'd be allowed to take the PE exam.

This guy is a CE though so I don't know if/how it differs for them. This is the first I've heard of anything like this though

4/4/2011 9:36:45 PM

^ Exceptions such as that are going to vary by state.

4/5/2011 6:42:34 AM

Correct, it will vary by state and won't typically vary by discipline.

One thing I will note though (which is not that dissimilar for most states from what I know) is that you have to have several references for your exam. Of these multiple have to be licensed PEs.

For me in SC, I need 5 professional references, 3 of which must be from licensed PEs. I also need a reference from my main supervisor who can verify my length of employment. He is also a PE. So 3 of my 6 references are required to be PEs (I think 5 of my 6 will end up being that). Your statement/description of your work is something separate that describes in detail what you've done and they can determine whether it was qualifying work the entire 4 years.

I guess the only reason I say all that is that, while you might be able to not work under a PE directly and qualify in some cases, it would be kind of hard to meet all of the qualifications without it since you generally need 3+ references who are PEs depending on the state. The way mine became references was working with/under them.

4/5/2011 7:49:20 AM

Do any of you have kids?

I ask, because I was planning on shooting for this in October. However, my wife is due Aug 6th. So basically I could study now, and then for at least a month I will get about 6 hours of sleep total, and probably not have much time at all to study.

Would it be smarter to perhaps push it to April of 2012 instead of pretending I can find time to study and think with a 1 month old in the house?

4/7/2011 8:21:48 AM

good, bad, or indifferent, i've done about all i can to prepare for tomorrow. in 8-10 weeks, i guess i'll see if i did well enough to pass.

4/7/2011 3:21:52 PM

Well i think it went well for me Friday. i don't feel like i knocked it out of the park, but i think i did well enough to pass. I guess the only thing i wish i would have done is more that 2 practice test. It's such a blur and race to do problems.

probably got stuck on a few problems where i should have moved on, but i think i got the right answers.

Now it's just a waiting game.

4/10/2011 11:27:40 PM

What practice tests did you take?

I have the latest 6 minute solutions book that has 20 Breadth and 65 Depth practice problems. I think this summer I am going to break those out into ~20 question blocks and give myself 2 hours to complete them to get used to the timing.

I also have the newest NCEES practice exam with solutions with the normal 40 Breadth and 40 Depth questions. Whenever I take that one I think I am either going to do it in one day (Take 8 hours to practice for the real exam) or sit down and at least do a straight 4 hour block one day and the next 4 the next day.

I do have the MERM questions but most people said those aren't really worth doing as "practice" problems since they are much more difficult and structured differently. I'll look at them but not with timing in mind.

Beyond that I'm not sure what other resources are out there for good practice problems besides maybe the PPI Exam Cafe.

4/11/2011 8:13:52 AM

I did the 6 minute solution and found it a good tool.

The MERM questions, you are correct, in they don't feel as useful for doing practices tests, but i do feel they are good problems to do for getting familiarized with looking up things.

I also did the PPI 11 week online class. It was helpful in i had problems i had to do every week and helped keep me on task studying.

I didn't do the NCEES practice exams, but if i had to do it over again (really hope i don't) i would do like you are talking about. NCEES plus Exam cafe (another thing i didn't use).

I also had the iTouch app that i could flip through whenever i was just chilling. it was flash card style so it helps you remember concepts and equations for the 2 sections you don't work on everyday in your job.

I think my test taking skills were shaky.

Good Luck!

Useful reference books for the HVAC and Refrigeration afternoon exam: ASHRAE Fundamentals , ASHRAE HVAC Systems and Equipment, ASHRAE HVAC Applications, and ASHRAE 62.1. A good unit conversion book.


other things i took headache meds, stomach meds, i used a carry on type wheeled suitcase to carry my books. a ruler/scale (helps on psy chart questions). i made my own quick reference book to help that also referred to the section in MERM.

4/11/2011 11:21:49 AM

Thanks for the tips.

I sure hope you passed this time because you seem about as prepared as I expect myself to be haha. What do you recommend for a unit conversion book? I have or have access to all the HVAC references you mentioned luckily.

4/11/2011 11:49:51 AM

This maybe a little overboard but it covers almost any unit you can think of and is listed in alphabetical order. It's basically and extension of the one in the back of the MERM, which covers most a lot of units. but this way you don't have to flip back and forth if you are looking at a section in MERM.

http://www.amazon.com/Engineering-Unit-Conversions-Michael-Lindeburg/dp/159126099X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302546707&sr=8-1

4/11/2011 2:38:39 PM

Does anybody have any good Ammonia refrigeration tables? I have a prinout of a P-H chart that got passed down to me in my department at work that people have said they have given people to use on exams but I keep getting the Ammonia sample problems wrong for some reason (unless I am just completely doing something wrong).

I haven't really had any problem brushing up on refrigeration cycles in general and have gotten almost all of the problems correct involving R12, R22, or R134a. But any problem involving Ammonia requiring lookup at certain pressures and temperatures I have been way off from the start. Some my final answer for COP or compressor power or whatever is remotely close but the enthalpies used to get there are way off using the chart I have which is making me question this.

The specific problem I am working says:

Quote :

"An Ammonia compressor is used in a heat pump cycle. Suction pressure is 30psia, discharge pressure is 160psia, and saturated liquid Ammonia enters the throttle valve. The refrigeration effect is 500 BTU/lbm Ammonia. Find the COP as a heat pump."

Using MERM as a reference:

A to B: isenthalpic expansion (throttle valve)
B to C: constant pressure heating (evaporator)
C to D: isentropic compression (compressor)
D to A: constant pressure cooling (condenser)

I know that the refrigeration effect 500BTU/lbm=Qin=hc-hb and that COP-HP=COP-R+1 where COP-R=Qin/Win=(hc-hb)/hd-hc)

I also know that given the two pressures, Pc=30psia and Pd=160psia. Pa=Pd=160psia. So to begin solving for my enthalpies, I started at A. Since A is the entrance to the throttling valve and Pa=160psia, I went to the chart to find the enthalpy where Pa=160psia intersects the saturated liquid line. My chart shows -300 BTU/lbm but the solution to the practice problem states it is 134.9 BTU/lbm @ ha.

After doing some research online, I finally found this chart, which is very similar to the one I got from work: http://www.refrigerationcomponents.ca/resources/charts/ammonia_r717_pressure_enthalpy_chart.pdf

It shows the same thing unless I am looking at it wrong.

Anyone have any input here? Am I just completely doing something wrong? Is my chart off?

This has been bothering me this whole afternoon that I have been working refrigeration problems.

[Edited on May 15, 2011 at 5:58 PM. Reason : ]

5/15/2011 5:49:49 PM

I looks like you have a bad Pressure enthalpy table. Do you have the ASHRAE Fundamentals book. if not PM me. But check page 30.34 for R-717 (ammonia) it looks in line with you problem.



not sure why the chart you have is off, but i never trust anything from Canada, just a rule of thumb.

5/23/2011 5:33:20 PM

oh yeah i passed!

5/25/2011 5:38:49 PM

way to go, dude!

(me too )

5/25/2011 6:41:45 PM

^ and ^^ Congrats!
I just found out I will be eligible to take the exam in CA when I move out here this summer. Do you know that CA counts the 4 years of undergrad engineering education towards their 6 years of qualifying experience!? I love it!

5/25/2011 6:47:13 PM

congrats guys! I only hope I can do the same! (Not always a good test taker but I'm trying to get as much studying as I can in haha).

^and yeah. I always though it was strange considering how strict they are with other stuff and how they are pushing for multiple tiers of licensure etc

5/25/2011 7:48:26 PM

Does anyone in here have the Six-Minute Solutions for Mechanical:Thermal & Fluids? Or know someone who has it?

I already have the HVAC + R version. A coworker is taking the Machine Design test, and we are copying and swapping the morning/breadth portions of our respective books to give the other some more test-appropriate morning problems. We are just looking for one other person to do this with who has the Thermo & Fluids Six Minute.

Thanks.

6/18/2011 11:55:14 AM

Another question to those of you who recently passed. How much did you focus on the morning material versus the afternoon material? A few people recently have told me that the morning was a breeze and that essentially everything could be looked up/found within the MERM during the test. They told me they only did the sample problems within the MERM for the non HVAC-R sections once and spent the rest of their time focusing on the Depth stuff to make sure they nailed the afternoon.

Did you guys find this to be pretty true of the exam? I am up to Chapter 49 in the MERM and just completely burned out on the reading, doing in-text example problems and doing the separate practice problems for each chapter. I think what makes it worse at the moment is that I am getting into areas I do nothing with and haven't touched since a specific class school (materials, dynamics, etc.) and I'm just a little overwhelmed. Am I doing too much in these areas that will only appear on the morning section?

[Edited on June 24, 2011 at 1:56 PM. Reason : ]

6/24/2011 1:47:22 PM

i took the thermal and fluids systems version, and the morning session was pretty straightforward. there were a handful of machine design and pschrometric type questions, but it wasn't anything difficult. basic plug-and-chug stuff.

i spent enough time on the subjects outside of thermo and fluids to be comfortable finding/applying the equations from the lindeburg reference. it seemed to work for me, at least.

6/24/2011 4:10:17 PM

appreciate it. Assuming the NCEES practice test is similar to the real test, I guess I'll find out the difficulty of the questions they ask when I take that.

6/24/2011 6:57:10 PM

Question on Refrigeration Cycles. I am getting tripped up on superheat for some reason. I used to know this but haven't used it in years and it is just frustrating me.

With a vapor-compression cycle where (for clarification in discussion):

A-B: Expansion (Throttling Valve)
B-C: Evaporator
C-D: Compressor
D-A: Condenser

I'll give an example of what should be an easy problem:

A compression machine is operating on a cycle which provides 15°F superheat between the limits of 35°F evaporating and 130°F condensing. Find the horsepower required per ton of R-22 refrigeration used.

Without the mention of superheat, I would normally use 35°F as my temperature at C (evaporator leaving) and 130°F as temperature at A (my condenser leaving temperature). If I remember correctly, superheat should be applied in the evaporator correct? meaning that state point C would start at a saturated vapor at 35°F like there was no superheat, but then move along a constant pressure line (p=psat @ Tc without superheat) to 50°F (35 +15 superheat) to find my actual point C (where enthalpy is my interest) in this problem.

Since I was not given an Mdot but I know Mdot=Qdot/(hc-hb) I used 200 [BTU/(min-ton)]/(hc-hb) where hc-hb is the refrigeration effect across the evaporator to give me lb/(min-ton) for my mass flow rate.

I then took this mass flow per Ton and applied it at the compressor where Work=Mdot(hd-hc) which left me with a number that was (Btu/min)/Ton which I converted to HP/Ton. However, I obviously keep getting the wrong answer which is why I came here.

If anyone can tell me what I am doing wrong (in regard to the entire problem or more importantly just applying the superheat information correctly since I think that is what I am doing incorrectly), I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks.

[Edited on July 16, 2011 at 1:56 PM. Reason : ]

7/16/2011 1:55:09 PM

Figured out what I was doing wrong on the last question, I posted; just a brain fart from doing too many problems that day and from doing that problem over and over. Once I took a break and came back I got it

I took the 6-Minute Solutions HVAC+R yesterday and Today and Got 78% of it right and averaged 4.5 minutes per problem. A lot of the ones I missed were problems that used a specific ASHRAE formula or chart versus trying to solve it and sort it out with theory in 6 minutes and I didn't have an ASHRAE book with me this weekend so I don't feel bad at all about that for my first attempt.

How would you compare the level of difficulty o HVAC-R problems on the exam to the 6-Minute Solutions book? If they are comparable or easier I am feeling pretty good with ~3 months to go...

7/30/2011 2:45:13 PM

Looks like no one else is taking this at the same time as me on here seeing as how I am about to quadruple post Oh well, if I pass maybe my methods will help someone in the future.

Anyway, took the 6MS HVAC again today, timed and finished all 85 problems in 6 hours with 93%. I had seen these problems once a month ago, so my goal was 90% instead of the previous goal of 75%.

I also ordered the other two NCEES sample exams (T/F and MD) today instead of signing up for PPI's Exam Cafe. I know the morning portions are the same as the HVAC one I already have, but I am going to do the depth problems from those exams. Yes, they should be a lot harder than anything I have to do for those two subjects since I will only see them in the morning, but I think that more problems from NCEES is probably more beneficial than more PPI problems since NCEES makes the tests.

And while I'm on the subject of NCEES, I am sitting for my first attempt at the NCEES HVAC Depth practice test two weeks from today which should hopefully be a true barometer for me.

8/26/2011 6:37:28 PM

given how much time and effort you seem to be putting into studying, i'd say you might be ahead of the game. i didn't kick my studying into overdrive until about a month or so before the exam.

best of luck to you!

8/26/2011 7:17:48 PM

well that's good to hear and thanks!

When it comes to tests for me, I always get very nervous unless I over-prepare or at least feel over-prepared, so I probably am doing more than I need to. As long as I pass it will all be worth it

8/26/2011 7:19:59 PM

I think you might be overly-worried about this. I'm assuming it's the same format as the Civil Exam (Broad subjects in the morning, specific and more in depth in the afternoon?)

I studied a good bit for the Civil PE...probably 200-300 or so hours, and passed it first try.

The morning was much easier than I expected. The afternoon was much harder. I felt like I got around 35/40 in the morning, and was just completely blown away by the afternoon...almost to the point where I felt like there was no amount of studying that was going to help me. As far as the Civil PE goes, if you don't feel like you got at least 30-32 in the morning, don't even bother showing up for the afternoon. The afternoon is extremely unkind no matter how much you study. They literally make it pretty much impossible.

I mean, I'm sure I probably got 25% - 33% of the afternoon correct (Beyond just the guesses), but there was a point in almost every question where I was like "Uhh....I guess I do this next?" kind of feeling that probably turned out to be right half the time. Just make sure not to get too down when the afternoon questions kick you in the teeth....I probably did a lot better than I felt at the time, and statistically, you're going to guess right or eliminate some answers.

If the format is the same, the morning is where you need your points. The Civil PE with the structural afternoon concentration (The lowest pass rate of all of the afternoon civil sections....and the hardest branch of civil) wasn't that bad...you should be fine if you've taken all this time to prepare

Make sure you know at least know where to find forumulas, how to use them, and the units the inputs are in. You can never know EVERYTHING, but if they give you a question (in my case) pre-tensioned concrete bridge girders, for instance, I at least knew the section of the book and formula book pertaining to that stuff. I wasn't too familiar with pre-tension, but I was able to BS and actually got a few of the answers just reading and playing around with formulas



I'm trying to talk myself into taking the Structural Engineering Exam (SE, it's a separate test from the PE). I bought the study materials and pretty much just started crying. Holy hell...you really have to be a genius. I think it's about $900 to take both days (16 hours), the afternoon is not multiple choice, and it's rumored (No idea if accurate) to have a pass rate of about 17-20%. Then again, Packbacker P.E, S.E. would look good on a resume!

Good luck with the ME test!



[Edited on August 26, 2011 at 10:16 PM. Reason : ]

8/26/2011 9:58:18 PM

Sorry for the long windedness, but I went back and read some of your posts.

As far as studying for afternoon vs. morning...

I did about 50% depth (afternoon), 50% breadth (morning) studying. While that worked for me, knowing what I know now after taking the test, I'd just recommend making sure you ace the morning. I was more prepared than most people I know that took the PE, and I had no effing clue how to do about 1/3 of the afternoon...I got 'an answer' that somewhat was near a value on the multiple choice answers on 1/3, and felt like like I got a decent answer that might be right on the last 1/3.

The morning problems will be about 50% concept based and won't require much knowledge of teh subject... just literally easy basic concepts to make sure you understand a basic premise. If it requires a calculator, it'll be literally one line of scribble.

While I say the morning is important, it literally will not require much studying of each subject to cover it.... they are BASIC, and more theory based. It's not 'plug shit into an easy formula' that you can wing at the test site, but they require a basic understanding of a concept that can't easily be looked up on the spot. If you're studying for the morning and it starts getting math intensive or getting really complicated, move on. That's beyond the scope of the morning

All of those answers count the same, so make sure you understand the basics about ALL TOPICS. The morning is your easy points. The afternoon will be a bitch no matter how much you study. You might be a bit better prepared than the guy next to you. He might have zero clue on a depth problem and you might have a small idea of how to do it..... but it's still a really long HARD problem that is very in depth and has a lot more room for errors. While the morning will be easier than you expect, don't take that for granted because at least 67% of your points will come from the morning more than likely. That's my $0.02



[Edited on August 26, 2011 at 10:34 PM. Reason : ]

8/26/2011 10:23:18 PM