this stuffs been around forever, why isn't it any cheaper? i figured by now they'd be making normal cars entirely out of it. esp with all this talk ab improving mileage . what gives?

11/4/2009 2:16:00 PM

NO MARKET

11/4/2009 2:21:47 PM

11/4/2009 2:51:18 PM

Quote :

"why isn't it any cheaper?"

fabrication costs and scales

11/4/2009 3:06:21 PM

Aren't repairs to damaged carbon fiber a pain in the arse as well? I've never really messed with the stuff, so I'm not sure. If you are talking about body panels and such for cars...yea it's light as hell but I feel that you can't easily repair it as you could sheet metal and paint. I could be wrong though.

11/4/2009 3:24:02 PM

i always thought repairing carbon fiber was like repairing fiberglass

a PITA, regardless

11/4/2009 3:27:04 PM

plenty of cars with plastic, can't exactly pop a dent out of that either.

11/4/2009 3:40:51 PM

^ true...but plastic is a lot better about resisting small dents in the first place (compared to sheet metal, i mean)...big ones, yeah, you replace the panel

i guess it depends how strong carbon fiber is...i mean, i know it's STRONG, but metal is "strong," too, and still gets dented...i don't know enough about it


[Edited on November 4, 2009 at 3:53 PM. Reason : .]

11/4/2009 3:49:50 PM

the problem is that even if the material cost goes down, fabricating carbon fiber parts is very labor intensive when compared to stamping a piece of metal.

11/4/2009 3:56:54 PM

11/4/2009 4:25:41 PM

^x7 i said normal cars.
how is there no market for it? a suburban would be at least 500lbs lighter and most cars would be 100-300lbs lighter.meaning the engines don't work as hard and the driver drives with a lighter foot bc of the increase power to weight ratio.

^ if the stamp is in the shape of a body panel wouldn't you just spray it with carbon fiber resin and boom.


i'm sure i'm over simplifing it but it seems like everyone knows the benefits of using it, it's been used in super cars/f1 for like 25 yrs and for some reason it hasn't trickled down

11/4/2009 4:31:50 PM

it seems like you would be able to mass produce CF parts by molding or vacuum forming. do all CF pieces have to be done by hand?

11/4/2009 4:34:30 PM

Quote :

"how is there no market for it? a suburban would be at least 500lbs lighter and most cars would be 100-300lbs lighter.meaning the engines don't work as hard and the driver drives with a lighter foot bc of the increase power to weight ratio."

this doesn't establish a market at all. you would have to show that the increase demand for the performance gains (or fuel economy gains) due to the lighter weight would offset the additional cost of carbon fiber. i don't know enough about these costs, but i would guess that for most cars it does not.

11/4/2009 4:42:09 PM

i DO wonder how much more expensive it is...if you could produce carbon fiber hybrids, i feel like the increase in fuel economy, added to the fact that the people buying hybrids are already willing to pay a premium for better economy, would be willing to pay the extra (though i have no idea how much more it would be...$3k, if mass produced?)

11/4/2009 5:10:00 PM

Quote :

"^ if the stamp is in the shape of a body panel wouldn't you just spray it with carbon fiber resin and boom. "

cf parts are usually made using layers of fabric, not sprayed

11/4/2009 5:31:30 PM

you can stamp 10-20 steel panels in a minute, as opposed to hours for one carbon panel

material costs may be about the same, but energy/labor is through the roof

11/4/2009 7:12:02 PM

The margin for error in laying carbon fiber is still too high..Now i bet if the machine to lay up parts was entirely in a vacuum and used some prepreg shit, it could happen.

maybe

11/4/2009 8:54:45 PM

Yeah, but just about all prepreg has to be cured in an autoclave.

Also, fiberglass is much cheaper to lay than carbon fiber...for one, glass is much cheaper to make. Also, most fiberglass is laid up using polyester or vinylester resins, which are much cheaper and easier to work with than epoxy. You MUST lay up carbon fiber with epoxy or phenolic...because polyester doesn't adhere to it for shit.

A great deal of fiberglass is still laid up using a chopper gun. Can't do that with carbon fiber, and if you could, the resin-rich matrix would nullify a lot of the fiber's lightweight benefit.

Steel, in comparison, is orders of magnitude cheaper on a volume basis, and the tooling, while very expensive up front, can be amortized over a much greater base. Timewise, it's a LOT faster and cheaper to stamp sheetmetal than to lay up composite...even after a LOT of automation is factored in.

Composites usually show their colors over much smaller production runs and lots of manufacturing variation over the manufacturing life of a product.

Think about it; in reality, just how many consumer items do you know of that are made of FRP? Injection molding, casting, and sheet stamping/deep drawing are all much more cost effective means of manufacturing in volume.

11/4/2009 9:21:35 PM

11/4/2009 9:54:36 PM

Quote :

"material costs may be about the same, but energy/labor is through the roof"

Material costs aren't anywhere near the same either. The demand for CF on the Boeing 787 drove up the cost of materials 10-15% for the past couple of years. Can you imagine what would happen if a mass-production automobile used CF? The demand (and price) would fucking skyrocket. It has gotten substantially cheaper over the last 20 years (from what I've seen, the material costs has dropped in half in the last 5-6 years alone), which comes from improved production techniques. But even then, it's still 2-3x the material cost of any stamped metal.

And as previously mentioned, the tolerances are nearly impossible to achieve for high production quantities, and the labor and layup is insanely expensive in quantity.

Just as a comparison, the all CF Lotus Exige picture above cost ~125k. A regular Exige (hand laid fiberglass) costs ~65k. A regular Elise (FRP) costs ~50k. That's some real number that should explain why.

11/5/2009 4:53:59 AM

^

Quote :

"...Lotus Exige..."

Quote :

"blah blah blah I drive a lotus"

11/5/2009 5:03:52 AM

hahah he never stops with that shit either


[Edited on November 5, 2009 at 6:20 AM. Reason : a]

11/5/2009 6:19:20 AM

Vaughn Gittin Jr. RTR-C Mustang

Full CF body, and lots of CF inside. Yours for $130,000. Saves ~500 lbs.

http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/vaughn-gittin-jr-rtr-c-mustang/full/


[Edited on November 5, 2009 at 8:32 AM. Reason : ]

11/5/2009 8:29:31 AM

in noen's defense he didn't post the lotus

11/5/2009 8:43:34 AM

Mansory Cyrus - Aston Martin DB9/DBS



http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/frankfurt-2009-mansory-cyrus-aston-martin-db9/full/
http://www.worldcarfans.com/109091821875/mansory-cyrus-based-on-aston-martin-dbs-or-db9/highphotos

Y'all HAVE to see it... this is what CF was made for!

Will set you back $570,000... ON TOP of the cost of the DB9/DBS!

The best pics:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/01-aston-dbs-mansory.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/05-aston-dbs-mansory.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/08-aston-dbs-mansory.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/12-aston-dbs-mansory.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/13-aston-dbs-mansory.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/15-aston-dbs-mansory.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/19-aston-dbs-mansory.jpg

http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/9/large/7867729.jpg
http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/9/large/8332730.jpg
http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/9/large/2886265.jpg
http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/9/large/6717803.jpg
http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/9/large/2936533.jpg
http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/9/large/9035111.jpg
http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/9/large/3142095.jpg

11/5/2009 9:03:33 AM

we got a huge role of CF cloth for concrete canoe. shit's strong.

11/5/2009 9:47:12 AM

As far as safety....metal is more ductile

11/9/2009 9:10:19 AM

you could build crush zones into cf

11/10/2009 7:07:39 AM

is carbon fiber difficult to paint due to the weaving pattern? i mean, obviously there's a necessary clear coat on top, but i wonder if it's difficult to apply paint to it

11/10/2009 7:43:50 AM

No, not hard at all, its just like painting plastic. The woven fibers are solidified with resin of course, and usually the exterior of the part has a smooth finish from the mold. In other cases you may not have a perfect surface finish on the carbon (vac bag or such) and the weave can leave a texture on the surface if there are not sufficient layers of fine fiberglass over top of it. In that case some body filler and sanding would be sufficient prep if a smooth surface is desired.

11/10/2009 9:53:52 AM

why paint it at all?

11/10/2009 10:31:57 AM

UV will damage the fiber/resin over time, also in some applications (aircraft) the structure must be painted light colors to keep the sun from heating and softening the resin matrix.

11/10/2009 10:53:37 AM

who is gonna build their own plane from cf though? we're talkin about cars

11/11/2009 8:47:48 AM

don't get me wrong, i like the way CF looks...but if CF ever became prevalent, having every car look the same isn't going to fly

11/11/2009 9:27:28 AM

it will if obama turn us into commies

11/13/2009 8:35:00 AM

they do make cars out of it...see Carrera GT

11/15/2009 10:40:34 PM

that is no the debate here, o quick witted one

11/16/2009 3:40:40 PM

From what I've read and heard, magnesium is just as light and actually slightly cheaper to manufature compared to CF, especially on a large scale. This is mostly because the labor for molding CF can be more time consuming or require more effort. Plus, quality control in magnesium manufactured parts are easier to follow up on than on CF.


[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 3:59 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2009 3:57:32 PM

Quote :

"fabricating carbon fiber parts is very labor intensive when compared to stamping a piece of metal."

or injection molding a piece of plastic

11/16/2009 4:16:15 PM

still a slow process compared to stamping

11/17/2009 3:26:53 PM

depends.. on small parts using like 32 cavity tools it's pretty damn fast overall

but yea, 60 second cycle times suck on single cavity tools

11/17/2009 3:28:03 PM

I'm about to buy a 20lb roll of some good stuff

11/18/2009 12:54:38 PM

^ what are the dimensions and cost?

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 2:30 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 2:30:07 PM

21.5 yards of 60", 45 degree biaxial twill, 9 oz/sqyd, probably around $900 with shipping.

11/18/2009 2:38:44 PM

what are you doing with it?

11/18/2009 3:24:40 PM

lightweight skateboards. slalom, downhill, and LDP

I may sell some of it.

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 3:45 PM. Reason : almost surely will make a couple disgusting r/c aircrafts]

11/18/2009 3:38:25 PM

So do you usually make molds and vacuum bag it or what?

11/18/2009 3:49:10 PM

i usually use a mold on the top side of the deck, to shape the 'concave/camber', for some of the decks its just a curve in one direction (cupped for the feet) but others have a 2-axis pringle shape. The core is set in from the edge of the deck and provides the bottom contours of the deck; wheel well areas and such. The whole thing is thrown in a vac bag.

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 3:55 PM. Reason : I'll do a build thread one day...]

11/18/2009 3:54:08 PM

one day.....

11/20/2009 12:16:06 PM

Ok, one day... SOON.

I suppose I could link a couple of my build threads elsewhere, but its a lot to filter through and a bit out dated. Still if you care to have a look,

My first LDP board build thread (turns into a pic thread for the next ones i build too) http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/longboard-board-building/62492-new-project-ldp-curves.html

A colorful fiberglass deck, short thread... http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/longboard-board-building/98700-sexy.html

This one has a time lapse video of a wet layup.. http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/longboard-board-building/82041-foamcore-slalom-gen-2-a.html

This one is the build thread for the first deck I built... http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/longboard-board-building/55968-foamcore-slalom-deck-polinated.html

This is my build thread for the ring-shape glider in my gallery. It is extremely long. Only open if you are a glutton for [words] http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=47b02de36572c54c0fcba16426d0024b&t=524182

[Edited on November 20, 2009 at 5:24 PM. Reason : d]

11/20/2009 5:23:21 PM