Not that any of us went to college. We went to State.

Quote :

"As a society, we place too much importance on "education", and too little importance on real learning and accomplishment. No where is this more epitomized than in college education. Is college for everyone? As a society, the answer is "yes, as long as you can find some way to afford it". But what happens at college? Students are educated in many areas, but how much do they learn? College advocates argue that a liberal arts education, while perhaps not directly relevant, will always provide a good foundation because students will "learn how to learn". Such a rationale is beside the point. While they may learn to learn by taking a liberal arts education, could they not also do so by many other less expensive means? Indeed, much of what college students pick up on the side such as dealing with people of different cultures and backgrounds can be picked up by simply working a job where one deals with the public, such as the food-service industry. The same can be said for responsibility, accountability, and others. In this case, the subject is being paid for learning, not going into debt. A college degree is overrated at best. Most true learning that does take place at college is on the students' own time. While some professors may offer question and answer times, most lecture during class and expect the students to manage their incomprehension by means of studying or by a volunteer tutor. So, a degree from a college says only that a student has been able to teach himself what he was expected to learn. While some students may require such a structured program to learn, many do not. Consider the would-be student who does not like school. He is not necessarily lazy, but he is interested in practical application of what he learns, and he is interested in one particular area. Students like this commonly have remarks such as "he is not working to his ability" made about them in high school, and few go on to college. Of those that do go to college, most will drop out. Why have they seemed so uninterested in "their studies"? Often, they are busy learning about something that IS relevant on their own, and between providing the means to pursue it (working) and pursuing it, they have little time left for being "educated". "Such people do not belong in college" would be the common response. Of course, then society will downplay their skills, or otherwise underpay them forever simply because they are good independent self-motivated learners who found a better way than "the system" to learn. College has distorted true learning terribly. When asked what a student's goals are in high school, students respond with what college they wish to attend. College simply extends the required education period mandated by the government while accomplishing little or no more than a good high school/trade school combination in many career paths. Why should anyone's goal be school? Of course we are always learning, but, after basic skills are acquired, is school the most efficient way to learn anything? Indeed, most college graduates do not end up with a job in their major, and liberal arts supporters will argue their case using this. What is really significant, however, is that these people are TRAINED by the employer for the position, and they use the college degree as a sort of elimination factor before any real screening takes place. It is a falacy that a student can walk out of college prepared to handle any job, reguardless of his major, yet that is exactly what liberal arts supporters are suggesting. (Being too well-rounded is pointless.) College tuition is another factor that prevents many from attending. These "nonprofit institutions" are second only to the Federal government for wasting money. As is noted above, little is done at college by the colleges that justifies such astronomical tuition rates. More class time is spent by the average high school student than college students. Is that not what we are paying for? Colleges will scream "we have better facilities", but such expenses are nominal compared with the sum of only a few students' tuitions, especially since much of the money for new facilities comes by way of donation or by government grants. What then is the tuition money for? No answer that would satisfy those who pay the tuition can be given. But that is only half of it. Since most students (read: their parents) cannot afford college, the government gives them the money. Of course, these are only the poor families. Those students who have been industrious by working on their own are penalized for doing so by not getting as much or any help. They are either forced into debt over college from the government "aid" in the form of loans, or they must attempt to work their way through, which is increasingly impossible. College becomes yet another way for the government to attempt to "equalize" the population, in accordance with their socialistic perspective on everything. College takes money from the rich, gives money to the poor, and keeps the middle class working harder and harder. Since the government feeds this corrupt system, tuition will continue to skyrocket and the true purpose of college will continue to diminish. The more employers hire by degree instead of by qualification, the more of our heritage we wash down the drain. Instead of finding one's own way to success, Americans are forced into the "system" if they hope to accomplish anything, or so they are taught by their school and their parents."

1/2/2009 6:23:16 PM

clif note that shit

1/2/2009 6:28:44 PM

didn't someone make this thread in the past week?

1/2/2009 6:32:49 PM

Yeah, I know a good number of people who graduated and went on to blue collar jobs that they could have landed at 18.

Shit, Kobe Bryant did alright.

1/2/2009 6:42:45 PM

^^ Maybe, the search engine still sucks.

1/2/2009 6:45:11 PM

search engine!?

it's not even halfway down the page.

yeah yeah. that one was about graduate school. but it's making the exact same inane point.

1/2/2009 6:48:33 PM

And people wonder why we have to issues visas to millions of foreign nationals to work in our highly technical fields.

Billions of people across the globe claw hand over fist to even have a chance for formal education. We argue that formal education is a bad thing. Its absurd.

1/2/2009 7:13:57 PM

I believe the author meant: "Liberal Arts Degrees are Overrated"

1/2/2009 7:14:20 PM

Quote :

"I believe the author meant: "Liberal Arts Degrees are Overrated""

omg fuck learning for the sake of learning

1/2/2009 9:15:43 PM

Again, a lot of it really depends upon the field you're interested in, the university you're attending, etc.

For engineers and scientists, a college education is pretty practical. While it is certainly possible for someone to achieve success in either field without going to college, for most rank and file positions, a good technical education provides a nice package of basic skills for a graduate to build upon when they enter the workplace: advanced mathematics and scientific theory, basic engineering concepts, etc. Sure, its not for anyone nor is it the only path into those fields, but it does provide a good start for anyone who's interested.

1/2/2009 9:30:37 PM

^^fyi, a lot of engineering is learning for the sake of learning in that you may not ever apply what you see in class. The difference is that people value learning one type of useless knowledge over the other.

1/2/2009 10:10:54 PM

Quote :

"Why have they seemed so uninterested in "their studies"? Often, they are busy learning about something that IS relevant on their own, and between providing the means to pursue it (working) and pursuing it, they have little time left for being "educated". "

I wish he had argued for less required classes that are bullshit

Like PE and English 101 and sociology and psychology and art for science majors

That is the huge turn off for me

1/2/2009 11:03:48 PM

^ What science majors have to take art? Engineers don't.

Buy psychology and sociology and english aren't bullshit classes for these majors. At least in terms of sociology, they could even learn more.

1/2/2009 11:12:57 PM

MORE LIKE DANIEL R. NAUGHTY

1/3/2009 12:50:15 AM

I understand the point of this article to some degree, but at the same time this person is wrong. I think you need a pretty strong background beyond high school to be able to teach a topic like English, or History. Science and math based fields also require a higher education. You need to know something about engineering, or medicine before you go to your first internship.

As for the argument that there is no need to take most of the classes. I think that is sort of silly to say. There is nothing wrong with having to take a math class if you are a history major, or a history class when you are an engineering major. Before I went back to work on my degree, I had some jobs at auto shops. The guys who never went to college were always pissed off more than the ones who had went to college. I am very glad I went back. I am much happier now and I also learned how to play golf and tennis. This semester I will be learning racquetball, which is something else I would have no understanding of, if I had skipped college.

1/3/2009 1:23:16 AM

http://www.icdc.com/~dnice/



You posted something from this guy? It's a joke, right? In any event, if "Dan" had attended college, perhaps he would know that commas and periods should be placed inside closing quotation marks. Is he British or did he receive a British education?

[Edited on January 3, 2009 at 1:36 AM. Reason : Link.]

1/3/2009 1:28:09 AM

And did he graduate high school?

1/3/2009 1:31:35 AM

bitter much?

i've noticed most employers look for is experience in a given field

apparently this book was also edited by some one with a "real education"

Quote :

"Shit, Kobe Bryant did alright."

one out of 300+ million does not a standard make

if everyone was as good as him at basketball they wouldn't need to write crappy books

college degrees indicate that you are capable of learning, which tells an employer that you are trainable to a high degree.

Quote :

"I wish he had argued for less required classes that are bullshit Like PE and English 101 and sociology and psychology and art for science majors That is the huge turn off for me"

if you aren't capable of doing well or even being exposed to a relatively diverse education why didn't you just go to a fucking community college?

G.O.D sat there while i was reading it to her and said she was surprised something smarter didn't come out of a girls mouth.

1/3/2009 1:49:34 AM

Quote :

"college degrees indicate that you are capable of learningfollowing directions"

BigHitSunday has some things to say on this issue here: http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=552893&page=8#12441432

[Edited on January 3, 2009 at 2:08 AM. Reason : ]

1/3/2009 2:02:13 AM

true enough

1/3/2009 2:03:48 AM

Quote :

"I understand the point of this article to some degree pun unintended, but at the same time this person is wrong."

In general, Undergraduate Degrees are Overrated? Well, perhaps.
In general, Undergraduate Degrees are not worth pursuing? That's completely absurd.
Granted, I would argue that Graduate Degrees are not necessary to succeed in the marketplace, but to argue that Undergraduate Degrees in general are not necessary is definitely stretching the conventional wisdom. I would recommend pursuing a Graduate Degree as well, but only if it doesn't hinder your financial stability and prosperity.

Quote :

"college degrees indicate that you are capable of learning, which tells an employer that you are trainable to a high degree."

Exactly.

1/3/2009 9:53:57 AM

Quote :

"if you aren't capable of doing well or even being exposed to a relatively diverse education why didn't you just go to a fucking community college? "

It's not a matter of a diverse education or a simple education, it's that the number of mandatory "electives" help ensure that students are unable to diversify themselves, unless they want to pile on to a work load that's already extending to 5 years.

1/3/2009 10:38:51 AM

Quote :

"search engine!? it's not even halfway down the page. yeah yeah. that one was about graduate school. but it's making the exact same inane point."

My bad. I don't enter TSB too often because I rarely have anything to offer and when I do, it's been said before, ages ago.

Case in point: this thread.

1/3/2009 11:13:31 AM

I do kinda agree with the article. College is not for everyone and the public school system seems to have trouble accepting the fact that realistically many kids are just not bright enough or have the will power to be college grads. Thus instead of emphasizing and supporting a more useful vocational tract for these students we instead send them to the same math/science/english classes and wonder why so many kids drop out.

I think we need to have a education system similar to what they have in many European countries.

Also, for those that due pursue the degree; it is true that often only a fraction of what u learn may be practical for your future career. In my opinion a degree is more of a proof of aptitude and one's resolve to undertake a complex difficult task than anything else. This allows companies to weed out candidates on to who they think will be better workers. Yes Electrical Engineering provided the backbone of theory for my job; but one of my colleagues an electrical technician knows shit more than i do simply by working for 30 years.

[Edited on January 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM. Reason : l]

1/3/2009 1:06:00 PM

Seriously though, education unequivocally owns.

1/3/2009 1:08:05 PM

^ Meh. As long as you take the time to network in college.

1/3/2009 8:40:39 PM

Education is valuable for its own sake. If you're seeking an education to make money then you're hopeless already; you've already decided that you want to be somebody else's slave.

1/3/2009 9:50:51 PM

Quote :

"DID NOT READ"

1/3/2009 10:11:16 PM

Quote :

"Education is valuable for its own sake. If you're seeking an education to make money then you're hopeless already; you've already decided that you want to be somebody else's slave."

Good call. My dad and grandfather would disagree with you, but they're uncultured assholes.

Could it be argued that there are not enough resources to give everyone an education or are resources maldistributed because of the current system or does it take an individual all of his/her power to get educated?

1/3/2009 10:23:33 PM

Quote :

"Education is valuable for its own sake. If you're seeking an education to make money then you're hopeless already; you've already decided that you want to be somebody else's slave."

Education != Degree

It's the belief that if you don't have a degree in something you aren't educated (or conversely, if you have a degree you are educated) that most of these articles that are appearing railing against the education system are complaining about. And they're right. This push to send EVERYONE to college is stupid because a) education can be obtained many ways, and not all of them require putting yourself into enough debt to pay a down payment on a house, b) because it turns colleges into degree mills rather than actual centers of learning and education and c) cheapens the actual value of a degree separate from it's educational value.

1/3/2009 10:30:58 PM

Alright, folks, I'm gonna wrap up the thread:

COLLEGE IS OVERRATED IF YOU'RE STUPID OR LAZY OR TALENTED OR SELF-TAUGHT.

[Edited on January 4, 2009 at 3:54 AM. Reason : OK, I actually read the article and have more to say now. Gimme a day. My bad on this post.]

1/4/2009 3:44:18 AM

Quote :

"Could it be argued that there are not enough resources to give everyone an education or are resources maldistributed because of the current system or does it take an individual all of his/her power to get educated?"

That's true of a lot of things -- I try not to respond to it with guilt, but with being grateful. There are plenty of things that we can't distribute to the whole world at the moment for various reasons, including food, coffee, wine, and marijuana. I can only feel guilty about so much at a time.

Quote :

"This push to send EVERYONE to college is stupid because a) education can be obtained many ways, and not all of them require putting yourself into enough debt to pay a down payment on a house, b) because it turns colleges into degree mills rather than actual centers of learning and education and c) cheapens the actual value of a degree separate from it's educational value."

This is all true, but the people who bear the ire of the "not everybody needs to go to college" crowd are the liberal arts students. It's kinda silly seeing as how a lot of the engineering kids are the ones who didn't need to go to college, and probably coulda gone to a community college or a tech school.

1/4/2009 12:17:48 PM

Quote :

"That's true of a lot of things -- I try not to respond to it with guilt, but with being grateful. There are plenty of things that we can't distribute to the whole world at the moment for various reasons, including food, coffee, wine, and marijuana. I can only feel guilty about so much at a time."

I'll buy that, seeing as how America is seemingly operated on luck.

Quote :

" This is all true, but the people who bear the ire of the "not everybody needs to go to college" crowd are the liberal arts students. It's kinda silly seeing as how a lot of the engineering kids are the ones who didn't need to go to college, and probably coulda gone to a community college or a tech school."

Kinda makes universities pretty pointless, unless you have good athletics.

[Edited on January 4, 2009 at 2:59 PM. Reason : asdf]

1/4/2009 2:58:33 PM

Quote :

"Kinda makes universities pretty pointless, unless you have good athletics."

Universities are research centers. Students go to be near that research and to participate in it. If you're going just to absorb information then perhaps it's not the best place for you. However, being educated by the finest researchers in certain fields is good, especially if you hope to have the mantle passed on to you at some point.

1/4/2009 6:35:15 PM

Then the model should be changed to support those most deserving, not those that can merely afford it.

[Edited on January 4, 2009 at 11:03 PM. Reason : asdf]

1/4/2009 11:03:18 PM

^^ the vast majority of undergrads at research universities don't come within 100 feet of any research, whatsoever.

but, i'll bet that those undergrads collectively fund a significant percentage of the research.

and i'm also going to hazard a guess that there's probably a fairly strong inverse correlation between the "finest researchers" and the "best educators"

1/5/2009 12:16:03 AM

Quote :

"It's kinda silly seeing as how a lot of the engineering kids are the ones who didn't need to go to college, and probably coulda gone to a community college or a tech school."

That's a very true statement. If the job market for engineers did not require that piece of paper, we could have all gotten away with getting the same education at a community college for a fraction of the price.

I still would have still attended college though, because the community college party scene is lame.

1/5/2009 9:19:54 AM

Quote :

"one out of 300+ million does not a standard make if everyone was as good as him at basketball they wouldn't need to write crappy books"

Well yeah. Sarcasm.

All I can say is that college gave me the skills that I needed to become the Mario Kart champion that I am today.

1/5/2009 11:01:52 AM

I'm glad I went to college.

I think that is all that matters.

1/5/2009 11:06:08 AM

Is this an example of market failure?

1/5/2009 11:08:44 AM

DONT TELL ANYONE I TOLD YOU THIS, BUT...

(as an engineer, i feel like an overpaid technician)

1/5/2009 11:38:50 AM

Haha.

1/5/2009 1:05:35 PM

This is the fallacy of the internet. People think that someone has a valid viewpoint just because they have a webpage.

1/5/2009 1:28:36 PM

I go back and forth between thinking college is and is not valuable.

I definitely believe that my views and perceptions have been challenged and I'm a better person for it.

But if you go into class thinking, "Booo learning," then college is obviously a waste of time for you.

It's tough to separate growth you make in college because of college and growth you make in college because you're getting older and living more and shit.

[Edited on January 5, 2009 at 9:56 PM. Reason : ]

1/5/2009 9:54:39 PM