I just installed a new pump at my place. it's pumping from a natural spring about 100 lateral feet from my house. 1/2hp wayne shallow well pump 110/220 unit. came with a nice pressure switch already installed but all of the hardwire screws came a size small/stripped on the unit, so i'm using a new pressure switch. classic design with one pressure adjustment nut for the cutoff pressure point.

question 1: since the initialization point is obviously set at a predetermined point, what is the standard pre-setting for it's cutoff pressure, and do i crank down or loosen the spring nut to increase its cutoff pressure? i used to do this shit for a living, but i'm spacing out hardcore on switch settings.

question 2: the 100ft lateral distance is augmented by ten degree rise over that 100ft, normally a the rule of thumb is "well how HIGH is the pump pushing it's load?", but that's a hell of long way to lose force due to friction. I've got a pretty badass bladder air compressed pressure tank that should take anything a 1/2hp pump can deal out (within reason), so, all considered, what would be the optimum point at which to set the shutoff pressure? with lifespan of 1/2in quest supply lines being the conveyance once inside the home? (old old OLD farm house plumbing redone in the mid 80s,*leak free to this point)

last question: two pinhole leaks at the pump junctions iritate the hell out of me because those NEVER heal themselves when pumping pure water like this and the piping simply cannot be attatched tighter without breaking the compresson rings (ive broken two): Is auotomotive silicone gasket sealer a safe option for use as potable water pipe sealant? (ie. will it poison me)

thanks. I'm just tired of having to jackleg galvanized pipe at the fittings to ensure I don't crush the regular pex fitting. would putting the pressure tank closer to the house make any difference? seeing as it would experience less inboud pressure from output direction caused by overhead water pushing against it's already maxed out pressure rating?




AND LASTLY

considering the distance and elevation we're dealing with here, do you suppose the pump itself is sapping my electricity more than a waterheater in questionable condition? as soon as i dumped their currents at the breaker, my power bill dropped by nearly 70%. I'm wondering which I should most likely consider a candidate for re-engineering. because a farmhouse heated by wood and lit only by maybe 4 low wattage bulbs at a time not counting one overhead flourescent light and a single computer with power saving setting simply should NOT be turning in a power bill of nearly 300 bucks a month. my aunt HEATS with electricity and keeps a computer and two tvs on at all times as well as countless lights and a waterpump and water heater during the same span spend only 25 more dollars than me after i had killed the power to the pump and waterheater. something isn't fucking right here


any suggestions from Plumbing/electrical types or maybe someone who knows the ins and outs of electrical conservation??

you guys are the best and cassthesass is the worst mod ever

12/5/2008 9:04:31 PM

just fucking PM BigBlueRam

[Edited on December 5, 2008 at 9:09 PM. Reason : him and his family own a plubming business--he'll have real answers.]

12/5/2008 9:08:48 PM

the water pump def shouldn't be causing your $300 bill

[Edited on December 5, 2008 at 9:23 PM. Reason : should be >50/mth]

12/5/2008 9:22:29 PM

cheat, put the tank in the house or next to it. and you can also, assuming you have electric hot water, look at getting a tankless unit to cut power bills more, cash in on the 'energy savings' rebates, and possibly fit the tank and the tankless heater where you old heater is now.

12/5/2008 10:27:15 PM

heh, that ">" should be a "<"

12/5/2008 10:51:20 PM

1 hp = 746 watts
1/2 hp = 373 watts

373 watts * (1 kilowatt / 1000 watts) * (9.5 cents / kilowatt hour) = 3.54 cents per hour

If your pump runs even only 10% of the time that's $25/mo.

12/5/2008 11:03:07 PM

Quote :

"cheat, put the tank in the house or next to it. and you can also, assuming you have electric hot water, look at getting a tankless unit to cut power bills more, cash in on the 'energy savings' rebates, and possibly fit the tank and the tankless heater where you old heater is now."

tankless water heaters are rarely worth the money. they are good for someone who is using hot water multiple times during the day...i.e...a housewife doing laundry, dishes, taking showers, etc...at all different times during the day. they will likely cost you 2-2.5x what a conventional heater will.

conventional water heaters are so well insulated, especially new ones, that the water in the heater will retain heat for a very long period of time. water still takes the same amount of energy to heat. tankless heaters dont heat water more efficiently. if you are the type of person who only needs water at distinct periods of time...i.e...shower in the morning before work, shower at night...you arent saving any money. your water heater will not fire very much during the day, especially in this climate. it will stay pretty hot in the tank.



[Edited on December 5, 2008 at 11:06 PM. Reason : space concerns are another deal. that can be worth the money. ]

12/5/2008 11:05:01 PM

^eh, that's hardly accurate advice at all. what retarded home improvement site did you copy/paste that from?

it really all depends on how long you plan to be in the house. a tankless unit will easily recover it's extra cost within the first few years of operation, even if you don't use much hot water. you forgot to mention that during all that time you're not using much hot water a conventional heater is still using energy to maintain temp. this is especially true in the winter or if the tank is outside the envelope. a tankless is using NONE. how about the recovery on a conventional heater when you do pull it down? do you have any idea how much energy that takes? clearly not.

i could go on, but it's a pointless discussion in this thread because the guy has ELECTRIC hot water. i'm guessing if he's rigging up his piping that he's not interested in spending the money on a propane tank and the gas that goes in it (i'm taking another wild guess that natural gas isn't available at a farmhouse).

to the OP: quit being a cheap ass, and spend a few bucks to have a plumber come out and repair those leaks. hell, spend the money on a cheap crimp ring tool and do it yourself. putting galvanized pipe anywhere near a plumbing system, much less one on a well, is retarded. there's a reason we don't use the stuff anymore and it's not because it's time consuming to install. i'd be willing to bet that with the time and money you've spent ghetto rigging crap you could have had it fixed properly. all you've done is introduce further liability into the system with a bad material and more questionable joints.

as for the pump vs. heater debate it's really a toss up. could be either one. if i had to take an educated guess assuming you have "normal" usage habits, i'd probably say it's a combination of the two. electric hot water isn't cheap. running a large pump isn't cheap. even under the best of circumstances/conditions, which yours aren't.

12/5/2008 11:36:11 PM

your math's a little off there, joe

[Edited on December 6, 2008 at 12:16 AM. Reason : GO SOLAR]

12/6/2008 12:07:27 AM

to my knowledge, they don't make "cheap" crimpers. not anything worth a fuck anyhow


nice advice though, mister smarty pants "Get a plumber"
fucking genius you are

12/8/2008 3:47:46 AM

you can rent them for damn near nothing.

12/8/2008 7:46:29 AM

Quote :

"^eh, that's hardly accurate advice at all. what retarded home improvement site did you copy/paste that from? it really all depends on how long you plan to be in the house. a tankless unit will easily recover it's extra cost within the first few years of operation, even if you don't use much hot water. you forgot to mention that during all that time you're not using much hot water a conventional heater is still using energy to maintain temp. this is especially true in the winter or if the tank is outside the envelope. a tankless is using NONE. how about the recovery on a conventional heater when you do pull it down? do you have any idea how much energy that takes? clearly not. "

for some reason I was thinking he had a gas heater and didnt pay attention to the electrical part. my experience and reference is to gas. that said, in reference to a gas heater vs a tankless...

you assume that a conventional heater loses heat rapidly, which it does not....ESPECIALLY a new one. conventional tanks will keep a constant temp for a long time. obviously, if it is outside the envelope, that makes a difference. however, if it is inside, your tank should not be firing more than a couple of times a day, max, if you arent demanding hot water all throughout the day, which is worth very little. I shopped water heaters last year and found it would cost me about $1400 more to install a tankless one. you talk to any plumber worth a shit and he will tell you (if he is being honest) that the greatest benefits of a tankless heater come if you are constantly demanding hot water and that it will take many years to recoup the difference, as the greatest cost in owning a convential hot water heater comes from having to re-supply/re-heat the entire tank.

large households see the financial benefit of a tankless. not small ones.

the point is, it still requires the same amount of energy to heat 1 gallon of water, whether than water is in a tank or not. maintaining the water in the tank to a temperature costs almost nothing. that is where your difference in cost is.


but yes, our argument is pretty much moot. my

12/8/2008 10:33:37 AM

A tankless will be more efficient and save you money every year but not because the tank will lose heat. It has to do with the difference between boiling a pot of water and passing water through a heat exchanger, it has to do with the Nusselt numbers and boundary layers. Consumer Reports found tankless to be on average 22% more efficient (my dad was looking at switching to tankless). However, for the overall price it's more a convenience item than something you can justify buying with simple payback. Living with a family of 4, we could kill some hot water if everybody took showers within an hour (2 bathrooms).

Back on topic though:

To the OP, question 2 could be answered by any ME (for a price, or for free depending on who you know) that has had fluids. Just look into the Darcy–Weisbach equation, you may be able to figure out the head loss due to friction for yourself.

[Edited on December 8, 2008 at 1:01 PM. Reason : ]

12/8/2008 12:48:28 PM

it actually came with a handy little chart (just like the ones engineers spend half a million dollars to tote around in their back pocket with all the answers) and it was pretty helpful when it came to junctions and sweated copper fittings. the galvanized nipple at the output on the housing was a necessity. i'm not looking for a "quick fix" because those always "quickly fuck up". This is a trenched 1 1/8 pvc suction pipe set into reinforced concrete. so unless I feel like hiring a fucking crew to reset the whole damn line, I've got to do with what I've got. and repositioning an 80lb pump housing with a pex outlet as the only handle (and the only bang absorber other than the tank itself) just doesn't fucking work.

i should have known better than to ask you wildcat faggots a question you might know the answer to. ALWAYS boils down to who has the most expensive degree and fucking equations and shit.

im going to loop a shitload of latex coated cotton twine around the problem areas and call it a day. never seen that fail

12/9/2008 2:03:56 AM

sorry i kinda railroaded your shit here. my bad.

12/9/2008 8:30:08 AM

IIRC, the screw on the pump should tighten for higher pressure and loosen for less.

so i would set my well pump around 60 psi.

for your last question, either redo the piping with solvent weld PVC via Iron Pipe connections to the galvanized stuff and use teflon tape, or get a crimper

the location of the tank shouldn't make any difference. the pump is still having to work the same amount to keep the pressure the same at the point of use.

12/9/2008 9:41:53 AM

From what I have read, one con to tankless hot water heaters is you don't run out of hot water, so, you end up using more hot water than before because the water doesn't start to get cold to tell you to get the fuck out of the shower.

12/9/2008 9:05:57 PM

i am now very intrigued with this "tankless" idea

sorry i flew off the handle. I'm just doing with what I've got.

12/24/2008 5:40:23 AM

Gas hot water? look at http://www.foreverhotwater.com/
Electric water heater? unable/unable to go gas any time soon?http://www.tanklesswaterheater.com/

12/24/2008 11:26:03 AM

dude, i'm more than happy to help you with any plumbing related questions, but not if you're going to be an asshat about it. anything i said was simply my professional opinion. to me, it sounds like you're in over your head. that's not beating my chest or trying to be an elitist. not only do you lack experience and tools, it also sounds like the existing system is kind of a hack job. hiring a professional would likely put you time and money ahead in the long run. maybe that's something you don't want to hear, but you're the one that asked for advice. if you insist on banging your head against the wall or simply want to learn how to do things (the right way) you need to invest in the proper tools. unfortunately, in your case, one of those tools is proprietary and pricey. look at it this way though, even if you only use them to make even one repair they've pretty much paid for themselves in comparison to paying a plumber.

it doesn't sound like to me you've got any issue with the well itself or the supply line which is why i didn't bother to address any of that before. besides that, it's just silly to speculate or do calculations that involve more than simple math on anything else until you get everything straightened out on the tank/house side of things. at the least, that includes any leaks. at best, that also includes redoing your "temporary" fixes and eliminating as many restrictions as possible in terms of fittings and/or pipe routing.

^rinnai is pretty good. it's also what the "big box" stores sell i believe, or at least a rebranded version possibly. that's nice for the average joe and/or any contractors that use those stores. we mostly recommend/install noritz though fwiw. electric tankless units are a joke for anything but apartments, hotel rooms, and offices. they draw TREMENDOUS amounts of power when they operate. they're also easy to overpower, even the bigger models. possibly in some cases they might be better than a conventional electric, but they don't hold a candle to a gas unit of any kind.

^^^not really. that's one of those "cons" that manufacturers have adopted in their advertising, but isn't neccessarily true. realistically, in most cases, it takes a lot more power to recover a conventional heater that's been pulled down that far vs. running the tankless unit a few more minutes or whatever. the difference becomes even greater the larger the tank is. jethromoore touched on one of the major reasons why tankless units are so efficient. a very well made point on the initial investment cost too.

^^^^no, regular iron pipe is even worse than galvanized! it's for GAS, not water. if you must use metal of some sort like that, use brass. if you need something longer than readily available nipples, use copper/pex to make something up with male/female adapters and unions as needed.



[Edited on December 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM. Reason : if you wanted to post some pics of all this, that would probably help tremendously]

12/24/2008 11:52:26 PM