Please STOP telling people Nalgenes aren't safe, they are perfectly acceptable.

I heard an REI salesperson tell someone that Nalgenes weren't safe anymore... obviously some people in the backpacking circles are being fed some incorrect information.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-08-15-bisphenol-A-fda_N.htm?csp=34

Quote :

"Based on the findings of the Food and Drug Administration, The Environmental Protection Agency, The American Plastics Council and other reliable sources from around the world, we continue to firmly believe in the safety of our products. http://www.bisphenol-a.org/ http://www.acsh.org/factsfears/newsID.92/news_detail.asp http://www.plasticsinfo.org/s_plasticsinfo/sec_level2_faq.asp?CID=704&DID=2838 http://www.nalgene-outdoor.com/technical/FDAstatement.html http://www.efsa.europa.eu/EFSA/efsa_locale-1178620753812_1178620835386.htm http://www.stats.org/stories/2008/should_baby_bottles_feb9_08.html The European Food Safety Authority report on BPA was almost entirely ignored by the American media. Q: Where can I find reliable information on polycarbonate and BPA? A: Consumers can visit the following web sites for more information: * European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) study - http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press_room/press_release/pr_bpa.html * American Chemistry Council - http://www.bisphenol-a.org * Environmental Protection Agency - http://www.epa.gov/endocrine/about.html * American Council on Science and Health - http://www.acsh.org/search/home_result.asp * Nalgene - http://www.nalgene-outdoor.com/technical/bpainfo.html Q: Which government and regulatory agencies have reviewed polycarbonate? A: Many government and regulatory agencies, including those listed below, have conducted comprehensive testing and review of polycarbonate and determined that it poses no health risk to humans. * The Environmental Protection Agency (USA) * The Food and Drug Administration (USA) * The European Commission Scientific Committee on Food * The German Federal Institute for Risk Assessment * Japan Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare"

[Edited on August 15, 2008 at 4:37 PM. Reason : .]

8/15/2008 4:36:57 PM

I think a lot of this started when the Nalgene company itself said it is phasing out BPA because of health and consumer concerns. (note stress on the consumer concerns- i think that they believe their product is safe but they know they will lose some customers if they dont offer the alternative)

[Edited on August 15, 2008 at 4:46 PM. Reason : ]

8/15/2008 4:45:09 PM

Yea, I agree, but in a way they had to because of all the negative press "Poisoning the well" was hurting their business.

(aka all the rumors, incorrect or incomplete information being spread about it.)

^what you said.

[Edited on August 15, 2008 at 4:48 PM. Reason : .]

8/15/2008 4:47:44 PM

right, I edited my post right before you posted and basically say the same thing (it was probably while you were typing your response heh)

edit-dang bad timing again on my part, you caught my edit before I got this post out pointing it out haha


[Edited on August 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM. Reason : ]

8/15/2008 4:48:28 PM

a lot of this started when some scientist did some research and published an article that found a correlation between large quantities of bpa and cancer

then

some idiot read the article and decided to find an everyday commonly used object that has very small amounts of bpa

same idiot tried to scare everyone into thinking that drinking water will give you cancer

8/15/2008 4:49:36 PM

and yet, bisphenol A is an endocrine disruptor and mimics estrogen in the body

why would you WANT to put that (something that, over the short term, we believe is okay) into your body when there are alternatives that (over the long term) have been shown to be perfectly safe?

if you use your nalgene every day (as i do) and put acidic/carbonated drinks in there (which i do not, but some people do), why would you want to risk it AT ALL when there are alternatives?

note that i still have all my polycarbonate nalgenes, and still use them, though i prefer my HDPE ones (the soft milky-white bottles)...i'm just figuring that if i can reduce my exposure to yet another chemical, it might not be a bad idea

8/15/2008 6:12:16 PM

Is this related to the thought that people should drink water out of glass bottles instead of plastic ones (Aquafina, Dasani bottles)? A friend told me that a couple years back, something about chemicals that, over time, get into the water. Especially if you're the type to carry around a water bottle everyday.

8/15/2008 7:46:45 PM

It's worth a little extra.

8/15/2008 10:00:33 PM

If you buy one now they are bpa free.

8/15/2008 11:28:53 PM

FDATL

8/15/2008 11:32:29 PM

Quote :

"and yet, bisphenol A is an endocrine disruptor and mimics estrogen in the body why would you WANT to put that (something that, over the short term, we believe is okay) into your body when there are alternatives that (over the long term) have been shown to be perfectly safe? if you use your nalgene every day (as i do) and put acidic/carbonated drinks in there (which i do not, but some people do), why would you want to risk it AT ALL when there are alternatives? note that i still have all my polycarbonate nalgenes, and still use them, though i prefer my HDPE ones (the soft milky-white bottles)...i'm just figuring that if i can reduce my exposure to yet another chemical, it might not be a bad idea"

Couldn't of said it better myself.

8/15/2008 11:33:59 PM

^^&^

it's proven that it's such a smalll amount it's deemed safe, as in, it won't impact you... not even a little bit... so what's the point if it's in there or not?

i agree though, i just can't stand the rumor that this stuff will kill you or cause your children to have ill-effects.... because it won't... that's why they do these tests

[Edited on August 16, 2008 at 1:18 AM. Reason : .]

8/16/2008 1:16:20 AM

well, I do have to admit that the FDA can't know that about everything for sure. They make their best judgment calls based on current scientific facts, but there are not always ways to completely and accurately model somethings LONG TERM effect in their labs.

8/16/2008 1:26:34 AM

meh...pregnant women and young children shouldn't be eating much in the way of tuna/albacore (as well as some other seafoods), either:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/admehg.html

while we've certainly done a lot to limit acute exposure to a variety of harmful chemicals that were once common in the world we live, work, and play in (asbestos, for example), it's the cumulative chronic exposure to a chemical cocktail that is still problematic, IMO

every little bit of avoidance helps

8/16/2008 8:23:17 AM

If you buy one now they are bpa free.

8/16/2008 9:56:59 AM

yes, this is true...later today, i might actually look up what formula they're using (i think the old formula was technically lexan, owned by GE)...maybe it's still the same line, but with a slightly different formula, i don't know

8/16/2008 10:39:54 AM

Quote :

"Couldn't of said it better myself."

of have

I don't know why, but that always bothers me.

8/16/2008 12:06:29 PM

the only issues the material has is when you dump boiling water in them repeatedly, otherwise they are fine indefinitely

8/16/2008 7:43:52 PM

^ you're forgetting that acidic fluids (juices or soda) also increase the amount of leachate

8/16/2008 8:27:47 PM

so what's a good alternative bottle type just in case if I need a good one?

8/16/2008 9:53:55 PM

^ well, as has been noted, the new nalgene bottles (the hard colored ones) are bpa-free, so if it really did concern you, you'd be good now...i, personally, swear by the original nalgene bottles (HDPE, milky white and "soft"...they've been used for decades by hospitals and laboratories)...they're cheaper, too

i don't care for the metal bottles, personally, because they're so small (i carry a 32oz bottle with me pretty much everywhere, and sometimes i'll bring my 48oz round or 64oz square if i know i'm going to be out and about)

8/16/2008 9:59:26 PM

so enlighten me

my 32oz polycarbonate nalgenes

should i buy new ones or what


the dicks up here by me didnt have a single nalgene product last weekend in stock, which i found odd.

8/16/2008 10:12:49 PM

Let's not forget the claims that aluminum (Sigg) may be linked to Alzheimers.

Besides, look at all the claims that the very water we drink contains pharmaceuticals, stormwater runoff, and harmful chemicals used to treat it.

You're just not going to be totally "safe" in any situation. But, you're better off drinking it regardless of the claims. If you didn't, you'd be dead in a matter of days

8/16/2008 11:38:04 PM

Quote :

"and yet, bisphenol A is an endocrine disruptor and mimics estrogen in the body why would you WANT to put that (something that, over the short term, we believe is okay) into your body when there are alternatives that (over the long term) have been shown to be perfectly safe? "

x2

SAFE MY ASS

It should also be noted, that the FDA has shown itself to have it's head way up it's ass numerous times.i

[Edited on August 16, 2008 at 11:55 PM. Reason : i'll stick to my cheap green gatorade bottles, thankyou]

8/16/2008 11:54:14 PM

Quote :

"But environmental groups were quick to criticize the agency's conclusions, which they said relied on industry-funded studies."

I'll stick to glass bottles for my 6 week old kid.

8/17/2008 1:25:03 AM

Quote :

"so enlighten me my 32oz polycarbonate nalgenes should i buy new ones or what"

i'll tell you what i do...i have, and use, my 32oz polycarbonate nalgene all the time...what i don't do with it, though, is put in warm, acidic, or carbonated liquids into it...which pretty much just leaves water

one of my undergraduate degrees is in toxicology, and while i'm by no means an expert, i feel like i'm more aware of the crap that we're blindly putting in our bodies...does that mean i filter all my water and only buy organic and put a HEPA air filtration in my house? of course not...i just try to do the alternative when it's reasonable and feasible

Quote :

"I'll stick to glass bottles for my 6 week old kid."

THIS is a good idea...simply put, children have such low thresholds for toxicity compared to adults that it makes sense to keep things simple, even if they mean a bit more work (though in this case, it's not such a huge deal to just use glass)

8/17/2008 9:18:18 PM

And who said the alternatives are "safe" kiddos?
The same FDA that you're refusing to believe now, I'm quite sure tested whatever IS in current water bottles and everything else. That or the EPA.

You're quite willing to claim they lie on one front, and trust them implicitly on another. that's pretty foolish. You either trust them or you don't. And if you don't, I'd like to know who you do trust at least on this topic, because a lot of folks out there claiming to be scientists are whackjobs. (Admittedly, a lot of the government is whackjobs too but you have to draw your lines somewhere).

10 years from now we'll probably have evidence that reverses everything we know. (Remember margarine is better for you than butter? hah..and now we say what? right...).
Or Aspartame causing cancer? (Which it doesn't pose a risk unless you are eating it by the fistfull - I propose quite the similarity to many things we consider perfectly safe. You can kill yourself with pure water if you drink enough of it).

That said, there's something that nobody brings up about the tests the EPA and FDA (and many other places) do. When it's done on mice or rats for determining things like this - those little suckers are special breeds for labs- that have incredibly compromised immune systems to make SURE that any risks are found - they're prone to just about every kind of cancer you can think of and just about anything can kill them off. Seriously. There are rooms in various government buildings that should someone unauthorized walk into and sneeze (beyond the security implications) - you just bought $texas in rats because they're so immuno compromised that they can no longer be used. Any exposure to anything kills them off.

TL;DR - people need to stop being terrified of things like waterbottles and such.
It seems to be the flaw of modern society to not realize that SOMETHING indeed will kill you one day. Odds are you'll live a hell of a lot longer than people 200 years ago, or 100 years ago etc - even if you don't panic over every tiny risk imaginable. (Obviously I'm not saying you can do anything risky and get away with it, don't drink from sewers and eat big macs every day kiddos).

8/18/2008 4:19:19 PM

Quote :

"And who said the alternatives are "safe" kiddos?"

i did, and i am...i challenge you to find me some valid evidence indicating that extensive use of HDPE (the milky soft nalgene bottles) can be linked to any significant health problems

it's been in use for DECADES and there is nothing to indicate that it causes any health problems...this is a FAR different scenario from using a product that we all KNOW FOR A FACT releases an endocrine disruptor, and then arguing about "how much is too much"

Quote :

"The same FDA...kiddos)."

really, while you bring up some points, they're not really valid points in this case...as i've noted several times, the problem isn't that we aren't sure if BPA is detrimental to human health (because we know for a fact that it IS), it's how MUCH is detrimental, and are levels of BPA being released into the bottles high enough to cause a statistically significant level of health problems

your margarine/butter and aspartame examples are not the same thing, and so therefore have no value to this discussion...do you really not see the difference?

i'm not saying do or don't trust the FDA/EPA...but you're being ignorant if you're truly think that testing done even TEN years ago conforms to the standards of today, or that those tests reach the same levels of detail that they do now...pretending like they can't make mistakes is indeed foolish...as is pretending like they don't know what they're talking about...you have to trust someone, and i'd rather put my trust in an (admittedly flawed) organization whose job it is to keep me safe than some random people on an online forum

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 6:07 PM. Reason : i want to say HDPE, LDPE, and PP are all safe, but HDPE is the only one i'm sure of]

8/18/2008 6:02:08 PM

While the FDA is not concerned about the effects of it on my hormone levels (estrogen and test), I AM.

This is the major reason for my avoidance of the product, not cancer risks.

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 7:39 PM. Reason : ]

8/18/2008 7:38:39 PM

Quote :

" It's worth a little extra."

When Sigg comes out with a wide-mouth bottle I might buy one for home use. For the trail I'd rather not carry the extra weight.

8/18/2008 9:15:31 PM

Quote :

" It's worth a little extra."

Yeah,
because aluminum has never been linked to any scares.
::coughalzheimerscough::


I'd use either one for the record. I just think the idea of recommending aluminum over polycarbonate is "just to be safe" is terribly flawed.

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 9:25 PM. Reason : l]

8/18/2008 9:25:14 PM

Quote :

"I'd use either one for the record. I just think the idea of recommending aluminum over polycarbonate is "just to be safe" is terribly flawed."

agreed

8/18/2008 9:30:17 PM

SIGG bottles have a plastic Lining inside and they're surprisingly light weight. Of course less significant when full. The mouth on Them is very ergonomic as well

8/18/2008 10:43:51 PM

^ what type of plastic is the lining? and my main complaint with them is that they're so small...i drink far more than they hold, so it's a pain to have to constantly refill it (and i don't like the tiny opening...i prefer wide-mouthed bottles)

so now it comes down to preference

8/19/2008 9:36:12 AM

brilliant, now people are buying bottles that look like fuel canisters, now there's a danger that someone's going to drink out of the wrong bottle.

http://www.google.com/products?q=fuel+bottle

8/19/2008 11:23:03 AM

hah, i have one that looks like that, but it's...MSI? goes with my whisperlite international backpacking stove

which reminds me...anyone want to come camping with me?

8/19/2008 11:25:52 AM

I'm down for hiking in the late fall/winter. I spend my weekends in the water as long as it is warm enough.

8/19/2008 2:23:41 PM

i really want to take off a week to do some AT hiking in the fall/winter

i prefer winter camping to summer, i don't know why...i don't mind carrying the extra gear

8/19/2008 2:28:26 PM

The whole BPA thing is also freaking out moms (esp new moms) bc most bottles that are plastic are made with BPA. I have a girl friend in PA who now only uses glass bottle to feed her daughter bc supposedly when the plastic is heated in the microwave, toxins are released and leech into the formula water.

I guess this also goes for tupperware and Uncle Ben's rice ready in the package in 90 seconds.

8/19/2008 2:32:21 PM

i think the levels in those are probably over stated and fears about it are a bit over done and more than a little reaching

8/19/2008 2:49:23 PM

Quote :

"I guess this also goes for tupperware and Uncle Ben's rice ready in the package in 90 seconds."

i'd think so yes...unless they're HDPE, LDPE, or PP

but this is why i only use pyrex or corningware storage dishes

8/19/2008 2:53:24 PM

Quote :

"i prefer winter camping to summer, i don't know why...i don't mind carrying the extra gear"

Same here. I think it's mostly because in the winter I sweat less, get less foul smells, and don't have to wake up baking in an oven like tent.

I'm all about the 6+ mile trails at Umstead, Falls Lake, and the Haw River during the summer. It's nice to hit the trail with just a bottle of Gatorade and still be able to go home and jump in the shower afterwards.

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 2:54 PM. Reason : l]

8/19/2008 2:53:40 PM

I prefer winter camping due to the lack of

MOTHERFUCKING SPIDERS

8/19/2008 4:04:36 PM

KILL THEM WITH FIRE

8/19/2008 4:19:40 PM

Now there's issues with the water you're drinking...

"Trace arsenic in water may be linked with diabetes"
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-08-19-arsenic-diabetes_N.htm?csp=34

The water you drink is more likely to harm you than the BPA in your bottle.

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 4:45 PM. Reason : .]

8/19/2008 4:45:23 PM

shoot, no one has mentioned the fact that there's already trace amounts of estrogen in our city water because of women who 1.) take birth control and/or 2.) dispose of their feminine hygiene products by flushing them...city treatment plants are designed to filter out these contaminants, so you just end up drinking them

i'm glad i grew up on well water

8/19/2008 4:47:59 PM

^haha, so did i

8/19/2008 6:26:02 PM

d'oh...that's supposed to say that they AREN'T designed to filter them out

but yeah, i think i'm going to have to get a water softener/filter...i hate this city water

8/19/2008 6:27:07 PM

hmm

8/19/2008 6:48:30 PM

Quote :

"And who said the alternatives are "safe" kiddos? The same FDA that you're refusing to believe now, I'm quite sure tested whatever IS in current water bottles and everything else. That or the EPA."

the EPA tests tap water

the FDA doesn't have enough resources to test bottled water (so they don't), and when random bottled waters were tested in an independent study a few years ago, they came up with trace baddies (like arsenic) in them

get your facts straight

Quote :

"i want to say HDPE, LDPE, and PP are all safe, but HDPE is the only one i'm sure of"

PEs are fairly unreactive... actually, most stable plastics have low reactivity: Americans should take a class on polymer chemistry sometime, that might eliminate this hysteria

I think people are getting way too uptight about the entire fucking thing

if you don't want to use PC bottles (polycarbonate, not all #7 plastics are PC), then don't, but there's absolutely no reason to assume that every single plastic bottle is going to eventually give you a deadly disease

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 7:05 PM. Reason : .]

8/19/2008 7:04:42 PM