i work for an architectural firm and we're designing a new horse barn for a state owned facility. the ADA (americans w/ disabilities act) requirements state that a "hard, firm fixed surface" is needed for the aisleway in the horse barn for people with wheelchairs (wtf). we're trying to find a suitable surface that isn't asphalt that will be okay for wheelchairs and not hurt the horses' feet.

ideas?

there are already 2 other horse barns on the property that are similar, but have dirt aisleways. they are requiring us to change the design for the new one. none of us are horse people so we have no clue.

[Edited on August 14, 2008 at 10:13 AM. Reason : ]

8/14/2008 10:09:28 AM

this is gonna come off as assholish, but I hope if I ever hire an architectural firm to make these decisions, they don't poll T-dub for help.

8/14/2008 10:22:04 AM

Don't be so pessimistic.
There is a lot of crap (and crappy people) on tww, but many of us are knowledgable.
That's what the lounge is for.

As long as you have half a brain you can figure out who knows their stuff.

8/14/2008 10:32:18 AM

not sure what to tell you, my only suggestion would be the smooth/slick looking slab style concrete

8/14/2008 10:37:27 AM

I'm guessing the rubber chip composite crap they use at playgrounds now would work.

8/14/2008 10:41:49 AM

I thought about that too, but I wasnt sure what their definition of hard/firm was...

8/14/2008 10:42:31 AM

I put in a basketball court and it is a really hard rubber compound, I have no idea what the compound is called but it would work.

Our court is called "SportCourt" I believe

8/14/2008 10:42:49 AM

^^^^^ Sure there are, and if I were building my own horse barn and I didn't know what surfaces were out there, perhaps (although not likely) I might come to TWW among other sources.

However, if I pay someone big bucks for their expertise and knowledge and I found out they were polling a college messageboard for some of their decisions, I can't say i would be thrilled.


[Edited on August 14, 2008 at 10:44 AM. Reason : d]

8/14/2008 10:43:54 AM

when i worked for a landscaper we used to "pave" walkways in yards with this stuff called "chapel hill gravel." apparently they pave (or used to pave, idk) the paths at UNC-CH with it. it would pack down really hard and wouldn't give someone in a wheelchair any problems. i guess it'd be ok for horses.

i can get you some more info on it if you're interested. just pm me.

8/14/2008 10:49:59 AM

i never said we were going to go with whatever some random person on tww said. **i also never said this is the only place i am looking. i am resourceful. i have a lot of ways to find information. this is one of many. to me, it's smarter to make use of everything available to you if it may contribute even the tiniest nugget of helpful information. maybe that's just me. maybe you prefer to do it the hard way. that's fine if you do.**

i'm looking for IDEAS. that's what the internet is for. we're architects, not professional horse people. this isn't hard to understand.

this is in the very preliminary stages of design and we're brainstorming. it's a lot faster for me to look around online to find some examples of what is commonly used for right now.

[Edited on August 14, 2008 at 11:03 AM. Reason : ]

8/14/2008 10:50:54 AM

^^ for some reason the joke about "what do gay horses eat" is coming to mind...

[Edited on August 14, 2008 at 10:51 AM. Reason : .]

8/14/2008 10:51:11 AM

i hated the name, but it's really good stuff

[Edited on August 14, 2008 at 10:52 AM. Reason : packs tight enough that you could blow it off with a gas blower]

[Edited on August 14, 2008 at 10:53 AM. Reason : the leaves and shit, that is, not the gravel]

8/14/2008 10:52:12 AM

i don't know that gravel would qualify as fixed, but i'm looking into it. thank you.
---------
let me phrase this another way: does anybody know what they put in for aisle-ways in a horse barn that is not dirt?

*by contributing your answer, this in no way means that i will go with what you suggest, it will simply give me a direction in which to look.*

manufacturers of such a surface would also be helpful. if you are a horse person or spend a lot of time around horses or have been to a horse barn that has hard floors, you may be able to help.

[Edited on August 14, 2008 at 11:03 AM. Reason : durr]

8/14/2008 10:56:17 AM

http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/freepubs/pdfs/ub036.pdf

might help..

8/14/2008 11:06:07 AM

Okay, my basketball court was made by SportCourt

http://www.sportcourt.com

The website shows the actual courts but I know that they sell just the rubber compound. I think it came in 4' x 4' sections but they have thousands of options

8/14/2008 11:09:49 AM

The therapeutic riding centers that I've been at (in CT and Mass) used a "rubber like asphalt" for aisles and such.
It had a little give to it, seemed solid enough for wheelchairs and for horses.

shrug.

Perhaps you could contact some therapeutic riding centers and ask what materials they used??

8/14/2008 11:20:54 AM

there we go. thank you.

8/14/2008 11:24:01 AM

"Horse Barn Flooring" on google. Try it.

8/14/2008 11:29:55 AM

lol, that's what I did

"horse barn floor surface"

8/14/2008 11:32:02 AM

That google is crazy. It's going to be huge someday and sell for like 1.5 million dollars.

8/14/2008 11:34:45 AM

Ok, I'm a horse person, I'll give you some answers.

My personal backyard barn USED to be dirt aisleways, but we had it cemented. It's fine for horses, but if they are going to stand on it for a long period of time, it's not recommended. We have a rubber mat that we put down in the beds of our stalls and in the area that our horses stand on the crossties. Concrete WILL wear shoes down pretty easily though, especially if your horse paws the ground. It works for us, as it was cheap.

That being said, I think my favorite barn flooring has got to be these rubber bricks. Something like this: http://www.diamond-safety.com/Eco-flex%20Z-Brick%20Pavers.htm They're a hard surface that doesn't have dust coming into the air, they're easy to clean/hose off, they have a bit of give to them so they're easier on horses legs than just normal bricks. They are typically used for aisleways only, and rubber mats are in the actual stalls.

If you need more information from the horse side of this project, I'd be more than happy to help.

[Edited on August 14, 2008 at 1:05 PM. Reason : lots of style options: http://www.comfortstall.com/CS_Products_DecoFlex.html]

8/14/2008 1:02:45 PM

I hope if I ever hire an architectural firm to make these decisions, they don't poll T-dub for help.

8/14/2008 1:30:22 PM

tww delivers^^

^and i don't see the problem. it'll give them some direction on a subject they're completely unfamiliar with.

8/14/2008 2:26:58 PM

If you are to use concrete, I would suggest using pervious concrete. Yes, it costs more, but the water used to rinse out the barn or urine doesn't runoff saving yourself from possible erosion and helping out the environment. It infiltrates into the soil. Soil is one of the best filters for nutrients.

8/14/2008 7:51:36 PM

What's wrong with wood?

8/14/2008 8:41:46 PM

best thread title ever

8/14/2008 8:49:26 PM

semi cheap idea..... concrete with a rhino spary on liner. really tough and shouldn't hurt the horses

8/14/2008 10:40:03 PM

I agree with smcain.

Idk about that chapel hill gravel--you have to be careful with horses and gravel because it can get caught in their hooves and hurt their frogs.
And that rubber brick stuff looks awesome!

8/14/2008 11:08:41 PM

Concrete works just fine. My family has been in the horse business for over 40 years here in the Raleigh area and almost every barn they've ever built (quite a few) has had concrete isleways.
Just make sure you get a good concrete contractor to do the work. Horses' feet will chip away the face of shitty concrete, leaving a rough surface that is difficult to sweep clean.

I have a very good concrete contractor that can do the work. PM me if you would like his number, he won't dissapoint.

[Edited on August 15, 2008 at 9:33 AM. Reason : ;;]

8/15/2008 9:30:31 AM

contact keenland race track

they use a rubberized brick surface for the stabling area and walkways


also

the old mereworth nursery farm in lexington was famous for the flooring in its broodmare barn


it is a wooden block floor, think brick sized blocks


its an awesome barn!

i would also contact the kentucky horse park

[Edited on August 16, 2008 at 1:02 AM. Reason : khp]

also, i used to work in the large animal hospital at the vet school, i absolutely HATED the pull up rubber mats in the stalls, they roll up over time, they are heavy as shit, and they just suck!

they were slowly moving towards resurfacing all of the stalls with a sealed rubberized diamondweave flooring. it is easier to sanitize, however sawdust gets packed into the diamond mesh, but it is good safe flooring.

[Edited on August 16, 2008 at 1:09 AM. Reason : been in a lotta barns over the years]

8/16/2008 1:01:36 AM

have you guys seen horse hooves before? they don't need cushioned surfaces to walk on in the hallways of the barn. that's going to be expensive, and completely unnecessary to go with some "rubberized brick" surface.

horse stalls are where they will spend most of their time, and those will be filled with shavings. ADA has to understand that, otherwise PETA could get in the way.

most horses are shod, meaning they have metal horseshoes attached to their hooves. The shoes raise the hooves so even the most sensitive part of a horses foot (the frog, in the center) will not be affected by most ground surfaces.

So, I'd say go with asphalt/concrete...because that's easiest for the ADA to accept and probably cheapest to implement.

8/16/2008 9:09:04 AM

ahahahaha i knew you were a horse girl. i bet you had the folders and everything

I'm walls1441 and i approve of this message

8/16/2008 9:24:44 AM

^nah, i'm betting wikipedia

and y'all some hating-ass people--if i hired a blah blah blah...wtf do you want? them to hire a a "horse barn consultant"?

people don't care about the design process, they care about the end result

8/16/2008 9:46:09 AM

^^i grew up with them

8/16/2008 10:06:07 AM

hahah from experience horse girls tend to be umm friskier than the rest

8/16/2008 10:19:23 AM

ive seen steel shod hooves skid and slip on concrete

so make sure it is very well texturized and that the texture will not break down over the life of the concrete.


it aint pretty watching a horse do a split

8/16/2008 10:27:23 AM

okay, yeah i should have mentioned something about texture.

concrete should be like sidewalk-type texture, not garage floor concrete.

8/16/2008 11:43:52 AM

^^ That's why I suggested rubber bricks. As I said, our backyard barn has concrete, and it is textured. And, I have to say, we sometimes rinse/bathe our horses off in our aisleway, and has the years have passed, erosion has happened from years of use. Also, if you have horses that paw all the time, they'll ruin their shoes and the concrete pawing in the aisles.

The give in the surface isn't for keeping their shoes cushioned, it has to deal with joints. Its the same when you have humans on special floor mats for where they stand for long periods of time. Granted, if its an aisleway, and the crosstie areas are somewhere else, the horses aren't going to be standing in the aisles for long periods of time. We crosstie in our aisleway, therefore the rubber mat to stand on.

Rubber bricks are expensive. They're a luxury, they're very nice looking. If I had a whole bunch of money to build my barn, it's what I would use.

8/16/2008 2:01:47 PM

My parents' current boarding barn has dirt floors that are covered in rubber mats, but I've seen also seen brick,
rubber playground type blocks, stone, and concrete. The best non-dirt floors also had good drainage, and were solid
without being being too hard, and had good traction, especially in winter. (Water from the hose for buckets will freeze and make an ice-skating pond for your 1500-lb horse.)

8/16/2008 2:20:38 PM

Every stable I've ever been in has had a hard packed dirt floor, and I worked and boarded my horse at a disabled riding facility. Don't scoff at the idea of riders in wheelchairs, they are out there. I also took a course in ADA. I call bullshit. For certain facilities and trails, a hard packed surface is suitable for a wheelchair. Has your firm actually contacted the ADA about this?

Also, using free pieces of another material (like rubber) wouldn't fly with me, you'd be surprised what a horse might think was edible.

8/16/2008 9:11:58 PM

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12531&nID=43&src=RA

now THAT'S a barn!


Members of the foreign press were invited to tour the Olympic stables. Access was limited and we didn't get to see all of the stable blocks (we were assured they're all identical), but we got a glimpse of life inside the famously air-conditioned stables.

The Hong Kong Jockey Club, which modified and added to its existing facilities at the Sha Tin Racecourse, spared no expense in recruiting world-renowned experts to help design the Olympic facilities. It spent more than HK$1.2 billion ($153 million USD) on the equestrian venues, and the results have drawn unqualified praise from both veterinarians and competitors.

Interior view of the Olympic stable block

Inside an air-conditioned stable (this is the block for the Brazilian, Mexican, and Australian teams).
Five stable blocks of a center-aisle design can accommodate a total of 225 horses. The stables are kept at a constant temperature of 23 to 24°C--73.4 to 75.2°F--which, experts determined, is the ideal temperature for keeping horses comfortably cool yet not so cold that they experience unpleasant shock when they step out into the heat or get chilled when they return to their stalls after exercising or competing. Ceilings are high for safety and good ventilation and have ceiling fans.

The flooring everywhere--stalls, aisles, wash areas, even throughout the veterinary facilities--is nonskid rubber. It feels firm under foot but has a bit of give and is studded with tiny raised "pimples" or grains to afford good traction.

Disinfection station

Disinfectant station along a barn aisle.
The stalls are constructed of galvanized steel and recycled bamboo. Each stall measures nearly twelve by twelve feet and is equipped with an automatic waterer. Teams can choose between straw or recycled newspaper for bedding. And here, the muck buckets are made from wicker!

Roomy and airy wash bays are available in each stable block. The rubber-lined bays open to the outside and are oversized for easy bathing. They overlook a fenced round pen used for longeing.

One unique feature of each stable block is a "rolling box": a round, high-walled enclosure deeply lined with coarse, light-colored sand so that horses can enjoy a good back-scratchy roll without danger of becoming cast or sustaining a scrape.

Misting tents are easily accessible from the stable blocks. Both sides of each tent are lined with special fans that blow a very fine mist chilled to 6°C (about 43°F). Organizers needed to locate fans capable of producing a finer mist than such fans typically generate, to help produce more-efficient cooling even with Hong Kong's high humidity levels, which are regularly 80 to 90% at this time of year. After a worldwide search, they found the fans they needed in, of all places, Hong Kong. The misting tents also are stocked with hoses and shower-type nozzles for cold-water hosing; the water is the same temperature as the chilled mist.

Rolling box

Horses can enjoy a safe roll in this round, sand-lined pen.
According to Christopher Riggs, BVSc, PhD, DEO, DiplECVS, MRCVS, 2008 Olympics veterinary-services manager, horses adore spending time in the misting tents. "They lean in and put their faces in the mist, and then they'll turn around and back their rumps up to the fans," he said. "You'd think that horses would be spooked at going in the tents because they seem a bit like a wind tunnel when the fans are on, but that's not the case at all."

"Green" Considerations

The Olympic stables include some environmentally friendly elements. Besides the bamboo wood in the stalls and the recycled-newspaper bedding, the aisleway material is made from recycled tires. The barns and air-conditioned indoor arena feature high-energy cooling and lighting systems--although some of the energy savings are negated by the fact that the barn and arena doors are often kept wide open.

Manure and soiled bedding are recycled and turned into fertilizer via vermicomposting (earthworms).

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 11:18 AM. Reason : .]

8/18/2008 11:15:19 AM

Quote :

"I'm guessing the rubber chip composite crap they use at playgrounds now would work."

8/18/2008 4:28:26 PM

naaa, that would be really difficult to get the fecal matter off when you needed it gone and all, would be terribly expensive to keep replacing

I'd go with the rubber brinks or the kind of stuff they have at like indoor tracks...something firm yet with a little bit of grip

make sure its somewhat porous as well so the water and stuff can drain and not make it too slick


id go with soemthing like that, and thats coming from someone that has been in barns with flooring like that and absolutely loved the look and how it turned out

be sure to have the sides perhaps as a cement drainage so that you can spray the water and doo doo off and make it really easy to clean up

8/18/2008 8:19:35 PM

what about seamless epoxy?

8/18/2008 8:32:06 PM

Quote :

"If you are to use concrete, I would suggest using pervious concrete."

Porous concrete which absorbs liquid sounds like a REALLY bad idea anywhere that livestock might urinate on a regular basis.

Quote :

"Idk about that chapel hill gravel--you have to be careful with horses and gravel because it can get caught in their hooves and hurt their frogs."

The kind he's talking about is more like slightly coarse sand and would be hard-packed enough not to be an issue.

I've seen barns with concrete flooring and a thick rubber padding laid across the top. I don't know why that wouldn't work. Or the Chapel Hill gravel, or simply hard dirt floors. I think if you could demonstrate that a wheelchair could effectively navigate those surfaces it wouldn't be an issue. But I'm not an inspector and the government can be asinine about this sort of thing. Why the ADA applies to a facility built not for human use but for equine use is baffling in and of itself.

8/18/2008 9:12:48 PM

^Pervious concrete does not hold the liquids in the pavement structure. The pavement structure has a high absorption rate, which allows liquids to infiltrate to the sub-soil. The sub-soil has voids, which allow the liquids to bond to the soil structure and where the necessary reactions can occur to treat pollutants of concern. Also, concrete can withstand acidic environments; hence, why concrete can be used on roads.

8/18/2008 9:45:07 PM

You may be right. But it just doesn't seem right having the urine soak through the concrete into the ground. You scrape a pee spot for a reason. I think.

8/18/2008 9:54:23 PM

If you live in an rural area, you most likely have a septic tank and drain field. There are a lot of septic tanks made from concrete. Your pee and poop are stored in this container until the liquid moves to the drain field where it infiltrates into the soil. The soil then treats those liquids.

Urine from hog farms also can go through slats and be stored on concrete-lined channels until it is flushed to the lagoons. In the Midwest, the hog waste is commonly stored in concrete tanks due to weather.

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 10:04 PM. Reason : ]

8/18/2008 10:03:28 PM

you seem to have an unusual interest in shit

8/18/2008 10:18:24 PM

my degree......i learned about waste treatment and stormwater treatments.

8/18/2008 10:37:44 PM