Quote :

"10 Things You Can Like About $4 Gas"

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1819594_1819592,00.html?cnn=yes

Some of them are a little silly, but I think the piece rings true on a deeper level.

"Because of higher oil prices, we're taking energy efficiency much more seriously, and we'll be much better off in the long run."

agree/disagree?


(oh, and #11: comeuppance)

7/2/2008 11:49:10 PM

That's why the Saudis are concerned. They fear that once prices slide back down we'll still be buying less just because so many people have adopted energy efficient lifestyles.

7/2/2008 11:52:47 PM

^^I agree about your point about taking energy efficiency more seriously...I've thought for awhile that the quickest way to get alternative energy sources in the mainstream was to include the oil companies, car companies, etc, because if they knew they were still going to make money I figure they'd go with an alternative source of energy whereas if they feared huge business losses (ie ^) they would be more hesitant to change...but I do agree that another way is to essentially force people to care by hitting their wallets and pocketbooks

7/3/2008 12:29:55 AM

I do agree that high oil prices will end up being a good thing, especially if supply remains relatively stable (else high prices + bad stability = fail).

I HAVE noticed less traffic in parts of town for sure, and a lot of other people like me in an SUV are cruising in the right-hand lane and drivers take it easier on the highway (girls and assholes still drive poorly, though).

I do want to downgrade to a smaller car and I do combine my trips and drive less. I also plan on getting an apartment closer to where I work after a graduate, but that will be more for convenience and quality of life than anything else (fuck these student apartments, haha).

I was surprised about that site's comments about health benefits from reduced emissions. I didn't think that would have such a big effect. I imagine that's not going to save that many people around here (air quality is pretty good here), but it's still good news. I suppose the other good thing about $4/gallon gas is you won't see as many old ass clunkers that get shit for fuel economy on the roads, as the people driving them won't be able to afford it any more (and will have to switch to a more efficient, uglier looking, less powerful, smaller car). That's the hope though.

7/3/2008 12:36:14 AM

told some people i wished it was 20/gallon today and they were like no thank you

7/3/2008 12:42:24 AM

See?

Fuck the Saudis.

Higher gas prices for a smarter energy policy!

7/3/2008 2:35:34 AM

Pretty interesting write up. A lot of valid claims, but the big fact is that most American's are hurting from this with little or no escape from the gas prices. I do wish I lived in a major metropolitan area and sport a bike or my motorcycle for 90% of my commutes.

7/3/2008 5:29:14 AM

#4's already arrived at at least one NC school district. Driving those big yellow buses 20% less saves a fortune.


^ Yeah, it does suck for some people. Independent truck drivers, for one.

But overall, my heart isn't aching too much. There were plenty of reasons to rethink energy use prior to $4 gas.

7/3/2008 7:56:19 AM

I drive the speed limit everywhere I go and I accelerate very slowly.

I'm in a '99 Tahoe that gets 12-14MPG

7/3/2008 11:13:59 AM

^^^ And that's also very true. In an area like Raleigh there's no real escape for the poor people here, unless they can walk or bike to work (on the sidewalk, not in the streets with how dangerous it is). They can take the bus, yeah, but a lot of people can't add the 1-3 hours to their daily commuting time so they can get to a stop in time to catch the bus (which doesn't go everywhere that the jobs are anyway).

I would've much preferred that gas prices rose slowly, instead of jumping what felt like a dollar twenty in a few months.

7/3/2008 11:27:38 AM

Yeah it sucks for now but ultimately I think the high gas prices getting us off our oil addiction can only be a good thing. And I'll definitely take a 4-day work week.

If we could get solar power working in more households to cut back on non-transportation, that would definitely be a plus as well. I saw where some MIT researchers have made solar textiles and turned them into curtains that absorb enough energy in a day to provide half the power needed to run an average home. Stuff like that, where you don't have to get the giant ugly panels on your roof, is going to go a long way toward making alternative energy a part of Joe Sixpack's life I think.

7/3/2008 1:26:34 PM

Quote :

"told some people i wished it was 20/gallon today and they were like no thank you"

Thats b/c you're an idiot.

7/3/2008 2:10:57 PM

Please explain.

7/3/2008 2:13:52 PM

At Lenovo they're doing summer hours where friday's are half days, and they're being more open to telecommuting.

that was a plus when I took the job.

7/3/2008 2:35:15 PM

^^if the price of gasoline was that extreme the price of almost all goods and services would skyrocket. Do I need to spell that out?

7/3/2008 3:05:15 PM

A half day is still a full trip to and from work.

Progress Energy has been doing a 4 day (10 hours/day) work week this summer and last. More because it is an awesome schedule, but it can also save on gas.

7/3/2008 6:10:56 PM

^^stop buying so many god damn goods and services then you consumer whore

7/3/2008 6:16:06 PM

What'd be so bad about that, exactly?

Nothing could incent inventors and energy companies like economic necessity.

Do I have to spell it out?

Or should I just let Friedman do it?

7/3/2008 6:48:37 PM

We did the summer hours half-day thing at Wyeth too

I don't really get it, honestly. Everybody still has to come in and nobody gets a damn thing done between 8-12 on Friday morning, everyone's just waiting out the clock.

7/3/2008 6:51:24 PM

i dont own a car and the price of gas is killing me.

milk is fuckin expensive in nyc right now.

AND beer prices are going up

fuck

7/6/2008 2:22:50 PM

^poor thang, you are hurting bad, huh?

7/6/2008 2:45:42 PM

chicken went up another dollar a bag for me...use to be 10 a bag...now 13...i only get it buy one get one free so its really only added a 1.5 but still...

7/6/2008 2:49:40 PM

^^ yes

have fun driving

7/6/2008 6:50:11 PM

The price of oil seems to be at or near the point at which alternatives become economically feasible. There is a lot of speculation as to what the near future will hold, but only time will tell.

7/7/2008 1:32:32 AM

more people are moving to cities so they dont have to own a car or so they have to drive a fraction of what they did.

almost all cities in the US have increased prices and increased populations. Both of which were at a steady rate or decline in the decades before.

7/7/2008 8:53:15 AM

Isn't it nice how the free market is working on solving the problem?

Alternative energy sources will become mainstream much more quickly and efficiently than if it was legislated by government bureaucrats.

7/7/2008 1:15:30 PM

I read recently that shale oil extraction becomes economically feasible if the price of crude is above $40/barrel. If thats true, then why isn't a bigger movement to extract that resource from (mainly) Canada being made? They have enough of that stuff to make the middle east look like a minor player.

7/7/2008 1:46:08 PM

Quote :

"Isn't it nice how the free market is working on solving the problem? Alternative energy sources will become mainstream much more quickly and efficiently than if it was legislated by government bureaucrats."

Efficiently, probably.

Quickly? The free market sure took its sweet time. We're reacting to a problem that better regulation could have better prepared us for.

[Edited on July 7, 2008 at 1:50 PM. Reason : .]

7/7/2008 1:49:30 PM

Agreed!

7/7/2008 1:53:04 PM

Unfortunately, the market has fallen short in this case and it would have been better if the government had stepped in during the 80's and 90's to address the looming issue of limited resources by encouraging sustainable energy practices.

There is nothing healthy, or inevitable, about the current run-up of energy prices which threatens to send us into a very nasty recession. If we had enacted responsible energy regulations such as higher fuel efficiency standards in years past, we wouldn't be as thirsty for cheap gas as we are now. Likewise, if we had previously taxed oil to reflect on the true environmental and energy security costs of the fuel, alternative energy sources and economical mass-transportation systems would be much farther along. Unfortunately, responsible planning is not a political winner in this country. As it is, we are one of the least-prepared first world nation for this current energy crisis, and one of the most vulnerable to an economic downturn from it.

I don't advocate a windfall profits tax to fund alternative energy. Nor do I think we should have a hodge-podge of subsidies and grants funding the pet energy projects of powerful politicians. The free market is almost always superior at allocating resources than any bureaucracy. However, the cheap gasoline that we enjoyed for so long did not reflect the true costs of the fuel, and it certainly did not help us in planning for the future.

7/7/2008 1:55:13 PM

Quote :

"#4's already arrived at at least one NC school district. Driving those big yellow buses 20% less saves a fortune."

Given your description I was expecting #4 to be "Children not bussed across town" or some such. It was something about less pollution... for me at least.

I'd love to see Wake county not bus kids all over the place. I remember an hour+ bus ride as a kid when there was a school I could have walked to. I've never quite let that one go and I don't want my kid to have to put up with similar nonsense.

7/7/2008 1:55:49 PM

Sorry-- I was looking at the page numbers, not the item numbers.

I was referring to #3-- 4 day work weeks.

7/7/2008 2:09:52 PM

Oh, yeah. Where I work is much too cheap to ever consider that. Even though you'd extend the days out. They'd go for a "both" solution. Extend your day and make you come in 5 days.

7/7/2008 2:27:52 PM

Quote :

"Unfortunately, the market has fallen short in this case and it would have been better if the government had stepped in during the 80's and 90's to address the looming issue of limited resources by encouraging sustainable energy practices."

no.

7/7/2008 2:30:15 PM

I'd be all for it if they could demonstrate that decreasing hours by 20% would decrease productivity by significantly less than 20%.

I'm skeptical whether that would be the case, though. Especially in education.

7/7/2008 2:31:28 PM

I think the free-market will fix this. In the mean time we will suffer dearly.

7/8/2008 1:51:54 AM

^ It's a shit sandwich, really.

The Federal government certainly has the resources to do something, but as usual, it'd be slowly and badly. The free market has the resources to effect change, but will do so in a manner commensurate with companies' ability to maximize profits--not benefits for the consumer or environment--which will mean passing R&D costs on to early adopters before making any practical solution available at reasonable prices. This is also slow and bad, just not as extreme on either point.

Quote :

"Prawn Star: Unfortunately, the market has fallen short in this case and it would have been better if the government had stepped in during the 80's and 90's to address the looming issue of limited resources by encouraging sustainable energy practices."

[Edited on July 8, 2008 at 2:51 AM. Reason : breathing into a paper bag]

[Edited on July 8, 2008 at 2:51 AM. Reason : .]

7/8/2008 2:51:15 AM

Yeah, shocking, right?

It has taken me a while to come to that conclusion, but I feel like the price of gasoline does not and has not reflected the true externalities of the fuel.

In this particular industry there is a dissonance between marginal and social costs that is simply not solved by the free market. The industry cannot internalize the security risks and pollution costs inherent with the use of the fuel. Therefore it is the government's duty to create a more efficient market by regulating consumption or taxing the fuel source proportional to it's external costs. The market will come through and create alternatives as prices rise; there is no need for the government to dabble in alternative energy R&D.


[Edited on July 8, 2008 at 3:15 AM. Reason : 2]

7/8/2008 3:10:40 AM

Quote :

"The free market has the resources to effect change, but will do so in a manner commensurate with companies' ability to maximize profits--not benefits for the consumer or environment--which will mean passing R&D costs on to early adopters before making any practical solution available at reasonable prices. This is also slow and bad, just not as extreme on either point."

Gamecat, you have misrepresented the situation. Companies are incapable of acting to maximize profits because, barring governmental assistance, they are incapable of dictating the behavior of other companies sufficiently to pass R&D costs on to anyone. If a new algae based fuel is deployed tomorrow and companies, expecting to be able to pass their investment costs on to early adopters flood the market, then the price of the fuel will collapse as producers struggle to sell all they are producing. On the other hand, if investors are skeptical and only one lone nut-job builds a factory, only to find out it is a hit with consumers, then they will recoup their costs very quickly by high prices to early adopters.

It looks to most observers that markets progress slowely only because under the circumstances it was a consensus that the wisest move was to go slowely (some businesses went fast, some did not go at all, etc). But this is not a rule; markets are just as prone to moving too fast as they are to moving too slow. If everyone gets it into their head that dot-com startups are always a good investment, then the free-market will flood the world with them, to our detriment.

In some sense it is good that right now it is unclear which way energy markets should go, so most investors are hedging by investing in a little bit of everything. Otherwise we would run the risk of all our money going the wrong way, rather than just 3/4th of it.

7/8/2008 11:02:44 PM

What I described wasn't some sort of exception, it's the rule. Algae-based fuel, biodiesel, or fairy wings, the costs will be recovered before anything will be produced on a large scale. No dictation of the behavior of other companies is required when you're all marching to the same drum.

Quote :

"Companies are incapable of acting to maximize profits"

7/9/2008 1:37:36 AM

And by what mechanism do you suppose your rule gets enforced? If Ryan Energy starts flooding the market will too many fairy wings will BP and Exxon sue it in court because they have not yet recouped their costs?

Markets are not magic but they do follow rules. The rule that is relevant is that prices in the short-term have nothing to do with fixed costs. You might have spent billions of dollars building your factory, but now that it is open you will keep running it even if prices drop to just above marginal costs because it is too late to decide not to build it. That money is gone, all you can do is the best you can, and as long as prices remain above marginal cost running the factory reduces your losses, even if it doesn't cover your debt payments you will keep running in bankruptcy.

History is full of examples of companies that borrowed heavily to build a factory, railroad, or oil field, only to be too unprofitable to pay off its debt because prices dropped (probably due to their entry).

7/9/2008 8:46:02 AM

Quote :

"Let us rid ourselves of the fiction that low oil prices are somehow good for the United States."

-- Dick Cheney (in 1986, after introducing a bill to impose a tax on imported oil)

G.G. ASSHATS

7/9/2008 11:29:56 AM

Since america is importing gas at $2.90 before taxes and fees now I thought I'd bring a relevant issue to the top.

Don't let me break your record breaking posting on the Palin pregnancy major US issue that will go down as the most important event in 20 years.


I Hate to make you all discuss a real issue.

9/2/2008 9:54:33 AM

so..... do you have anything to add to the discussion?

9/2/2008 9:56:18 AM

further prove that the high price of the oil is speculation. thank goodness for hurricanes bringing down the price

I guess we'll have to blame bush again.

V Exactly


[Edited on September 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM. Reason : .]

9/2/2008 9:58:24 AM

Oil prices have gone down to the already-high levels of earlier this year!

9/2/2008 10:09:43 AM

W

The President

No Oil Company Left Behind

9/2/2008 12:15:46 PM

I haven't kept up. Did the price of oil go back up to $140/bbl, cause prices jumped by about $0.20/g this weekend for the last of this summer's routine calendar dictated gouges.

9/2/2008 6:46:39 PM

$109.71

9/2/2008 6:58:19 PM

Huh, so it went down a little since the last time I saw prices move and the gas price went up? Nice. They are rocking a nice business model.

9/2/2008 7:10:09 PM