I wonder how could we bring democracy to the people of China? I understand we have become somewhat dependent on their cheaply made foreign goods, but I think a time must come when we must place Values before Dollars.

Communist China is a threat not only to its own citizens that it denies basic humanitarian rights, and not only to Americans by trying to spread its evil ideology through war, but also to the entire planet by being a blatant enemy of the environment.

I know some people say we have taken money in the form of loans from them, but why do we feel obligated to pay them back? Their godless government wouldnt need to be paid back if it were overthrown.

The question I ask is how could we remove the communist regime in China today? Economically? Militarily?

4/11/2008 2:51:58 AM

Quote :

"Their godless government wouldnt need to be paid back if it were overthrown."

you're serious, aren't you?

4/11/2008 2:55:51 AM

Quote :

"why do we feel obligated to pay them back?"

Nations have credit ratings.

4/11/2008 2:56:08 AM

I've been waiting for that album to come out foreve...

Oh, that Chinese democracy.

4/11/2008 2:56:33 AM

I'm trying to figure out how we could overthrow them quick enough to not pay them back. It would be like Robin Hood if we were to not pay them back. They would use their money to further their insidious machine of oppression. What we need to do is to foster an insurgency against China.

It would come at too great a cost to engage them in conventional warfare, but if we could ignite a guerilla war, perhaps we could liberate China

[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 3:00 AM. Reason : .]

4/11/2008 2:56:38 AM

Meh.

I'd rather spend the money fixing up our own house.

Maybe show them why free markets and free societies are better.

[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 3:03 AM. Reason : lenders need borrowers...]

4/11/2008 3:02:43 AM

They are a scourge to our free market by using slave like labor to create an immoral and unethical advantage towards cost of production.

On top of this, they are suppressing the practicing of religion, in essence blaspheming the name of Christ.

They are also the reason global environmental measures can not be adopted.

Their government is cruel and deserving of being removed, the question is how.

So far the Islamist Terrorists havent paid much mind to the communists, both of which should be natural enemies. If there were a way we could spark the powderkeg, we could greatly benefit from deaths on both sides.

[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 3:08 AM. Reason : .]

4/11/2008 3:07:37 AM

^^

Quote :

"I've been waiting for that album to come out foreve... Oh, that Chinese democracy. "

I wonder if that album title is just some crazy inside joke for Axl...because it's never going to happen!

[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 3:07 AM. Reason : ^^]

[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 3:09 AM. Reason : ^ you are like salisburyboy minus the boner against jews]

4/11/2008 3:07:44 AM

THIS IS AN ASIDE

I love jews, I'm dating one

also

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/dotmusic/20080410/ten-guns-complete-democracy-31c8aba.html

Guns n Roses submitted the final version today

4/11/2008 3:10:16 AM

I've got your solution. Ready for it?

Stop recklessly borrowing. The sooner you do that, the sooner you break the leverage of nations like China over our own government.

Get rid of our protectionist policies which hurt third-world countries and generally make people unhappy (read: farm subsidies, agriculture tariffs, etc.), and openly trade with nations. Providing a conduit for economic prosperity is one of the best foreign policy tools we have, and it's one of the reasons China is undercutting us in Africa right now - because they're aggressively interested in investing in these places. If we were to actually open up our markets to these places, China's monopolistic influence would be greatly diminished.

Meanwhile, if you're so loathe to the idea of inferior sweatshop-produced goods produced there, don't buy them.

There you go - a completely non-violent, non-dick way to blunt the Chinese advantage.

4/11/2008 3:11:12 AM

You did raise an interesting point.

I wonder when Al Qaeda starts attacking China.

4/11/2008 3:12:36 AM

Oh I don't buy them, you'd be surprised at how batshit crazy you guys would consider my lifestyle. My friend's brother was killed in tiananmen square by the commie pigs. If they'll do that to their own children, imagine what they're capable of.

Right now we are seeing there is a global outrage against this regime, we need to figure out what to do with this goodwill. History favors the bold. What are the geneva conventions duke with regards to poisoning water supplies like their yellow river?

4/11/2008 3:14:31 AM

Two things about Al Qaeda and China

they seem to have NO CONFLICT as in Al Qaeda will attack in INDONESIA the pacific rim to one side of china, Al Qaeda will attack in India to the left.


Could China be funding Al Qaeda? Is China the TRUE war profiteer? No AMERICAN wants to make money off the blood of his own people, but those communists thirst for our blood. They want to create a war between us and the Islamist Terrorists that they bankroll on both sides WITH INTEREST. Whoever dies, China wins.

We gotta cut the middleman out.

4/11/2008 3:17:28 AM

i don't know...my knowledge of the Geneva Convention treaty you're referring to is regarding military combatants.

not that it matters--poisoning the Chinese water supply is not even arguably the right thing to do.

4/11/2008 3:17:42 AM

Yeah, I gotta say, there's a bit of a stark irony in complaining about the brutality of the Chinese regime while simultaneously proposing civilian genocide.

4/11/2008 3:19:13 AM

if we are in a war

can you shoot someone for being a communist, would that be enough "probable cause"

I'm wondering if we could treat them like the baathists

4/11/2008 3:19:14 AM

Let me help bring direction to this thread


We are the joint chiefs of staff. And we are charged with removing the Communists from power in China.


what do we do to achieve this?


I think the best course of action is to either

A) Pit Al Qaeda against China

or

B) Connect Al Qaeda to China


it would be probable China would bankroll Al Qaeda to profit off arms sales and providing interest loans to both sides hoping to create endless war with endless profits.


however, if we could find a way to pit Al Qaeda against china, perhaps shoot a chinese sattelite down over mecca to raise the ire of the islamic world, we could use the terrorist against china

[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 3:24 AM. Reason : .]

4/11/2008 3:21:10 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen#Afghanistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qaida

Yeah, I'd think about that a little more carefully, there. We just tried this, and it didn't work out so well.

4/11/2008 3:28:27 AM

4/11/2008 3:31:06 AM

we would remove the problems piece by piece

even if the islamists took over, they wouldnt be as bad polluters, and they would at least bring the gospel of Christ with them in some form.

This time we wouldnt give so much autonomy to our chinese mujahideen and would track the supplies more carefully.


but in this day and age, conventional war is out of the question

4/11/2008 3:32:05 AM

information is a tough supply to track. even tougher to control.

you're bordering on Jack D. Ripper with a lot of this...

4/11/2008 4:09:22 AM

The problem is that we are perpetrating the human rights abuses and environmental damage done by China and other countries. We have labor laws, environmental restrictions, etc... in place that they don't have, so when we buy their goods we are still exploiting workers and polluting, it's just not American workers and the American environment. They are making too much money off of us to really change the status quo.

4/11/2008 7:42:34 AM

Can we suspend the judge already? he's obviously a troll.

4/11/2008 8:27:45 AM

didn't read the whole thread but

Quote :

"I know some people say we have taken money in the form of loans from them, but why do we feel obligated to pay them back?"

Instant inflation. That would be akin to creating enough dollars to cover our debt if we decided not to pay it.

4/11/2008 8:32:19 AM

Quote :

"Let me help bring direction to this thread We are the joint chiefs of staff. And we are charged with removing the Communists from power in China. what do we do to achieve this? I think the best course of action is to either A) Pit Al Qaeda against China or B) Connect Al Qaeda to China it would be probable China would bankroll Al Qaeda to profit off arms sales and providing interest loans to both sides hoping to create endless war with endless profits. however, if we could find a way to pit Al Qaeda against china, perhaps shoot a chinese sattelite down over mecca to raise the ire of the islamic world, we could use the terrorist against china "

a mad dog

4/11/2008 10:02:29 AM

I was certain that this thread would be about Dr. Pepper's promise to give every American (Except Slash and Buckethead) a free Dr. Pepper should the GNR album be released in 2008. Oh well...

I think the answer to:

Quote :

"I wonder how could we bring democracy to the people of China?"

Is that we cannot, and I'd further bet that the Chinese people cannot either. Not a long-lasting, vibrant one anyway. Look at where the former Soviet Union's government is these days. I'm hesitant say it's an outright failure, but you'll note that it looks less and less like "democracy" every day.

4/11/2008 10:18:39 AM

Quote :

"Communist China is a threat not only to its own citizens that it denies basic humanitarian rights, and not only to Americans by trying to spread its evil ideology through war, but also to the entire planet by being a blatant enemy of the environment. "

*sigh* Have we not learned our lesson yet?

4/11/2008 10:20:52 AM

The Judge has been reading to much US propraganda. What many do not realize is that a democracy oriented gov't does not equal freedom and civil liberty for its people. Democracy is a tool to incorporate this into a society but not an end result upon itself. Tyranny of the masses???

Quote :

" * Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried. -Sir Winston Churchill "

Quote :

" * The strongest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter. -Sir Winston Churchill "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

By the way take a look at the history of Taiwan. There record is not exactly spotless as the exiled freedom loving democratic gov't of China pre communist revolution. For nearly 40 years Taiwan was ruled by a one-party system while under martial law. That does not sound very democratic to me. However, since they are friendly to American business then we tend to overlook the other stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

From the rapid increase in the China economy as of lately i'd imagine most Chinese are pretty happy.

[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM. Reason : s]

4/11/2008 10:23:53 AM

Quote :

"By the way take a look at the history of Taiwan. There record is not exactly spotless as the exiled freedom loving democratic gov't of China pre communist revolution. For nearly 40 years Taiwan was ruled by a one-party system while under martial law. That does not sound very democratic to me."

That's a very outdated view of Taiwan though. Taiwan is now a vibrant, multiparty democratic state which has had numerous smooth transitions back and forth between various parties for a while now. One-party, KMT rule is long gone, and the Taiwanese are better for it.

Quote :

"From the rapid increase in the China economy as of lately i'd imagine most Chinese are pretty happy."

This is true, but the question is how sustainable this is. People are happy with the PRC government right now because of the rapid economic growth and general improvement in the standard of living even if it is uneven. However, this rapid growth is going to eventually slow, and as people become more affluent, they're going to want more complex public goods that the government will likely struggle to deliver: modern health care, pensions, cleaner government, more property rights, greater say in government (though not necessarily democracy), and a transparent and fair judiciary to start. This on top of rural development for more than half a billion citizens. There are some serious doubts as to whether the PRC can deliver in its present form, and so the current government is going to have to figure out how to adapt or die. Should be interesting.

4/11/2008 10:53:57 AM

Most chinese are happy?


LIKE THE SCORES THAT DROWN EACH YEAR WHEN THE RIVER LEVELS RISE?


you guys forget the majority of China is RURAL and STARVING

its not all fun and dance shanghai (where they will still SHOOT UNARMED STUDENTS WITH IMPUNITY)

4/11/2008 11:19:25 AM

Suspend the judge. Say no to trolls in TSB this year at elections!

4/11/2008 11:38:29 AM

Quote :

" This is true, but the question is how sustainable this is. People are happy with the PRC government right now because of the rapid economic growth and general improvement in the standard of living even if it is uneven. However, this rapid growth is going to eventually slow, and as people become more affluent, they're going to want more complex public goods that the government will likely struggle to deliver: modern health care, pensions, cleaner government, more property rights, greater say in government (though not necessarily democracy), and a transparent and fair judiciary to start. This on top of rural development for more than half a billion citizens. There are some serious doubts as to whether the PRC can deliver in its present form, and so the current government is going to have to figure out how to adapt or die. Should be interesting."

This is fine. If the chinese people want more liberties and a gov't that will allow them to have more personal freedoms then that is their issue to work on. Contrary to what The Judge advocates it shouldn't be our job to initiate or impose American style democracy onto China.

Quote :

"I wonder how could we bring democracy to the people of China? "

The Judge lost all credibility after this statement

Quote :

"y trying to spread its evil ideology through war,"

I guess he forgot that the communist revolution started in China because of the shitty living conditions the common peasants squallored in .

Quote :

"but also to the entire planet by being a blatant enemy of the environment."

This could be said true of India to.

4/11/2008 11:40:58 AM

Golovko first off you said it was okay for my friend's brother to be shot dead in tiananmen square, you wanna call someone a troll, its you you son of a bitch



second, the reds spread COMMUNISM through war, we spread freedom and liberty through ours. I think people would be willing to swallow war to let them decide their fate and that of their childrens rather than be shackled in a communist lifestyle

4/11/2008 11:44:54 AM

troll + christianity = funnier than southpark

sorry trey and matt but you got pwned

4/11/2008 11:45:55 AM

Quote :

"Golovko first off you said it was okay for my friend's brother to be shot dead in tiananmen square, you wanna call someone a troll, its you you son of a bitch"

thats not trolling. Thats a simple fact because your 'friend's friend's friend's brother's cousin who met this chinese gold farmer on WoW' got shot for breaking the law. Chinese law! fuck off, troll.

4/11/2008 11:50:29 AM

kurtmai do you advocate communism?

4/11/2008 11:51:34 AM

troll + red terror = ww2.5

4/11/2008 12:01:19 PM

Quote :

"I'm trying to figure out how we could overthrow them quick enough to not pay them back. It would be like Robin Hood if we were to not pay them back."

I don't know about this one, chief.

Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor.

4/11/2008 12:23:24 PM

^hahahaha nice catch...

4/11/2008 12:25:06 PM

us borrowing from them makes them the rich in this instance

clap your little red hands kurtmai, you know as well as I do those commie pigs will pay for their crimes against humanity, if not at the end of our bayonets, then by suffering the awesome vengeance of the Lord

[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 12:27 PM. Reason : .]

4/11/2008 12:27:00 PM

lol why am I commie?

4/11/2008 12:28:34 PM

Quote :

"us borrowing from them makes them the rich in this instance"

Except that it doesn't.

Now, if we could figure out a way to give the money to the Chinese people and not the government, maybe that would resemble Robin Hood.

Merely keeping it for ourselves would be the opposite.

4/11/2008 12:29:55 PM

we will use it to fund an insurgency against their cruel government and liberate them.

I think there is something to this Al Qaeda angle, if the chinese aren't already in bed with them, we should try clandestinely and with earnest to bring about conflict between them

4/11/2008 12:32:43 PM

^ Didn't we try this once before? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_afghan_war#Foreign_involvement_and_aid_to_the_mujahideen

4/11/2008 12:35:44 PM

Quote :

"second, the reds spread COMMUNISM through war, we spread freedom and liberty through ours. I think people would be willing to swallow war to let them decide their fate and that of their childrens rather than be shackled in a communist lifestyle"

haha you sound like a pamplet for the US army.

"Join now and help us fight the good fight to spread freedom and liberty throughout the world!!!"

4/11/2008 12:38:44 PM

are you saying you don't support the US Army, scumbag?

4/11/2008 12:40:51 PM

of course we support the army, son. have faith in those who raised and nurtured you

4/11/2008 12:43:56 PM

Do you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, kurtmai?

4/11/2008 12:45:50 PM

just burn me on the crucifix

4/11/2008 12:47:57 PM

Quote :

"are you saying you don't support the US Army, scumbag?"

last time i checked supporting the army does NOT equal supporting the foreign policy of our leaders. This is neglecting the fact that my post made no such assertion in the first place. GTFO troll

4/11/2008 12:48:54 PM