Im sure yall have seen coverage on CNN or the like.

A number of very high end home in a Seattle suburb were burned this morning in an apparent arson/eco terrorism case.

A flag bearing the ELF initials was found at the scene.

This is the group that is being blamed for the arson of multiple homes in a model neighborhood out here on the west coast, few miles from Seattle.

Im sure that the fumes from the fire, ash, and all extinguishing materials are completely eco friendly.

Way to win that war people

3/3/2008 5:02:35 PM

Far-left terrorism? Impossible! In any event, JoeSchmoe has declared Seattle terror-free.

3/3/2008 5:23:46 PM

I guess they don't realize that the builders have insurance, so now they're just going to have to cut down more tress in order to rebuild. Basically this kind of stuff has no impact on anything, but it helps the "activists" sleep well at night knowing that they're part of a larger movement that is more socially aware than 99% of people.

Also, maybe I'm just basing this on stereotypes, but I assume that people who build high end homes in Seattle are going to build greener homes than many other places.

3/3/2008 5:30:21 PM

Calling this terrorism devalues real terrorism

this is arson

3/3/2008 5:49:43 PM

This shit is retarded. Hurray for stupid, dangerous people.

3/3/2008 6:36:21 PM

The retardation is so rampant that I can't even come up with an analogy that fits....

Burning a drum of oil to protest car emissions?

3/3/2008 6:45:34 PM

yeah, this is interesting. just a few miles down the road from where I work, actually.

i mean obviously this is criminal, and should be punished to the fullest extent... but is it really terrorism?

i don't feel terrorized.

what terrorizes me more is how almost any crime can seemingly be declared an act of terror, with the potential to take away a citizen's Constitutional rights.

3/3/2008 7:57:39 PM

Calling it "eco-terrorism" does nice things for the right. It helps with their agenda against environmentally minded groups/individuals by trying to tie them into the omni-present boogyman terrorism. I wonder what cute nomenclature we can craft for those folks who murder abortion doctors or bomb clinics.

As it has been stated the proper term for these people is arsonist but make no mistake, the right will do everything they can to spin this into some kind of "See? ALL environmentalists are loony nut jobs". I don't agree with methods of the arsonists in WA but I do sympathize with their intentions.

3/3/2008 9:18:03 PM

I think 'terrorist' has overtaken 'fascist' as the blanket insult of choice in politics.

Jews and Palestinians refer to each other as terrorists.

The US and Iran hurls the 'terrorist' label back and forth.

Corporations and environmental groups frequently get slandered as "corporate terrorists" and "eco-terrorists" respectively.


Interesting.

And stupid.

3/3/2008 9:19:51 PM

see also 'liberal' and 'neocon'

3/3/2008 9:37:46 PM

Quote :

"Calling this terrorism devalues real terrorism...this is arson"

...and 9-11 was just poor piloting

3/3/2008 10:51:38 PM

No no, you forgot the best part!
WHY did they burn the homes?
Because there was a stream with some salmon in it behind the housing development, and they were worried people moving in would kill the salmon!
http://sendtofriend.abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=4377694
Another day where I look at the news and wonder if Issac Asimov himself could have written something this ironic.

3/4/2008 12:21:45 AM

what I don't understand is why they go after relatively 'ordinary' people... I mean, if I were one of those nuts, I think Id rather go after the CEO of ____ oil/gas/chemical/pharmecutal company, not some joeshmoe's crib... in any event some homeowner should introduce these people to buckshot.

3/4/2008 12:47:31 AM

Because real estate interests are accessible

3/4/2008 12:53:28 AM

Quote :

"Calling this terrorism devalues real terrorism"

maybe

but it pretty much fits the definition of terrorism

i mean, they have a political agenda, and they try to push it through coercive, violent, criminal intimidation.

that's pretty much what terrorism is.

we don't hesitate to call, say, the Unabomber and Timothy McVeigh "domestic terrorists". Why does the ELF get a free pass?

3/4/2008 1:22:50 AM

They didn't kill or injure anyone, did they?

I think that's the distinction folks are drawing.

3/4/2008 7:09:30 AM

I'm not an any state of terror... my home is small and humble.

3/4/2008 10:02:02 AM

So is this thread going to dwindle into semantics about what "terrorism" is or will there be legitimate discussion on how these guys could have gone about demonstrating their interests through more constructive means? Sadly what I see this doing is giving the wingnuts fodder against environmentalism for the next umteenbillion years. Speaking of wingnuts I am going to turn on Boortz and see if he is wetting himself to rail against these guys. Talk about "foamies".

3/4/2008 10:18:52 AM

Terrorism doesn't have to kill people. It's acts of violence (burning down houses isn't peaceful) that are supposed to instill fear, terror, etc.

Sure, it's wimpy terrorism, but terrorism nonetheless.

3/4/2008 10:27:32 AM

They're just a bunch of bored upper class white kids rebelling against their parents. Just like every other group of environmental nutjobs.

3/4/2008 10:29:17 AM

You mean you don't pocket-mulch?

3/4/2008 11:59:09 AM

That sort of shit is so fucking stupid

First off, grats on burning all the chemicals in a house. You really thought that through.

Secondly, they're rich so they're clearly going to rebuild and consume even more materials. You really thought that through.

Third, you're making people with legitimate environmental concerns look like extreme left wing, che hat wearing, cheech and chong worshiping tools. You really thought that through.

3/4/2008 12:00:10 PM

they should sneak up in the middle of the night, and recycle the house

3/4/2008 12:11:53 PM

Quote :

"Id rather go after the CEO of ____ .... not some joeshmoe's crib"

say what?

3/4/2008 12:13:14 PM

Quote :

"Calling this terrorism devalues real terrorism this is arson"

Scuba Steve, HockeyRoman, et al

Is burning a cross terrorism?

And it's often called "eco-terrorism" because that's how ELF defines the objectives of its actions:

Quote :

"The Earth Liberation Front (ELF) is an international underground organization that uses direct action to stop the exploitation and destruction of the natural environment. The EFL realizes that all life on Earth is threatened by entities concerned with nothing more than pursuing economic gain at any cost. Therefore, the ELF uses clandestine guerrilla tactics in efforts to take the profit motive out of killing the Earth."

http://www.satyamag.com/mar04/elf.html

There are and have been other left-wing radical and/or terrorist groups such as the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Revolutionary Youth Movement, Students for a Democratic Society, the Weather Underground, and others.


[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 1:01 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2008 12:47:05 PM

Quote :

" Is burning a cross terrorism?"

Depends on the circumstances. If it's in a black person's yard and being done by the KKK, then yes.

If it's my yard and I'm doing it myself because I'm bored, then no.

3/4/2008 12:52:41 PM

I think they burnt down the houses instead of going after some CEO because most environmentalists are nonviolent.

This was probably a local issue that they had protested and felt strongly about. After their protest went unheard they decided to burn them as a last effort. Obviously it worked, They got on TV didnt they?

As far as the houses being green, I dont think any 6,000 sq. foot house is going to be that "green" no matter how it is built and the real issue was the location.

Not trying to say what they did was right, just rationalizing it and trying to put myself in their shoes.

3/4/2008 12:52:57 PM

Quote :

"Is burning a cross terrorism?"

Was the Boston Tea Party terrorism?

3/4/2008 1:01:10 PM

^^

Quote :

"As far as the houses being green, I dont think any 6,000 sq. foot house is going to be that 'green' no matter how it is built and the real issue was the location."

Maybe you're right.



Al Gore's 10,000-square-foot home

^ Answer my question.

3/4/2008 1:06:20 PM

Skankin already gave a satisfactory answer. Was there a point to it or do you just revel in attempting to derail threads?

3/4/2008 1:15:42 PM

When will you guys understand that how you interpret something isn't really how its defined.

ter·ror·ism /'t?r??r?z?m/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

3/4/2008 1:18:59 PM

^^ Um. . .don't blame your inability to comprehend a legitimate point on me.

High Court Upholds Cross-Burning Ban
History Of Intimidation Outweighs Free Speech Protection

Quote :

"Thomas said the court didn't even have to consider the First Amendment implications because cross burning is clearly intimidation. 'Just as one cannot burn down someone's house to make a political point and then seek refuge in the First Amendment, those who hate cannot terrorize and intimidate to make their point,' he wrote [emphasis added]. 'In our culture, cross burning has almost invariably meant lawlessness and understandably instills in its victims well-grounded fear of physical violence,' Thomas said."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/07/supremecourt/main548121.shtml

^ Yes, and ELF was obviously attempting definitions 1-3.

[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 1:51 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2008 1:49:41 PM

At least you finally got the the crux of your intent. You can't just prompt a question and hide behind "making a point" if you don't explain why you asked it. Now, like always, you will pitch a fit with ad homs and red herrings because no one fell for your stupid trap.

3/4/2008 2:18:29 PM

IT'S A TRAP!!!1

3/4/2008 2:33:32 PM

Quote :

"They didn't kill or injure anyone, did they?"

I would consider burning my house down a form of injury

3/4/2008 3:03:49 PM

A burning cross is a symbol of violent racism.
ELF burning a house is a cry for attention.

One of these is terrorism, the other is simply a criminal act by children.

You fight terrorism by fighting the ideology behind it.
You fight faggot kids by putting them in pound you in the ass prison.

[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 4:45 PM. Reason : ffff]

3/4/2008 4:29:40 PM

i agree.

i dont care what ideals they think they're "fighting" for... burning down untenanted buildings is arson.

yeah, its a crime, and if theres an interstate aspect to it it might even be a federal crime... but the crime is still arson.

you start calling this stupid shit "terrorism" then you might as well call every other crime "terrorism"

i mean, goddamn it. I say DUI is terrorism. The real fear of drunk driving bastards plowing down innocent bystanders terrorizes the shit out of me. For that matter, anyone who climbs up on my ass with "road rage" at 50+ MPH in rush hour traffic is a fucking terrorist.





[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 4:55 PM. Reason : ]

3/4/2008 4:49:23 PM

^ Wrong--again.

terrorism:

Quote :

"1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. 2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization. 3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism

Quote :

"The EFL realizes that all life on Earth is threatened by entities concerned with nothing more than pursuing economic gain at any cost. Therefore, the ELF uses clandestine guerrilla tactics in efforts to take the profit motive out of killing the Earth [3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.]."

Quote :

"The ELF recognizes that the popular environmental movement has failed miserably to bring about the protection needed to stop the killing of life on this planet. State sanctioned means of social change on their own rarely have and will have any real effect in obtaining the desired results. This is due to the obvious fact that the legal means of protest do little more than reinforce the same system which is a root of the problem. The state system is not going to allow any real change within it unless the state structure (government), big business, and finally the mainstream consumer society feels that change is really necessary. Matters must be taken into the hands of the people, who need more and more to step outside of this societal law to enforce natural law [1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.]."

Quote :

"Capitalism as a target is not easily identifiable due to it being an ideology rather than a physical object. But forms and symbols of capitalism can be targeted successfully to greatly influence the impact the capitalist state has on life. Whatever the target may be, the ELF ideology promotes efficiency and effectiveness: choosing the most effective target possible and using strategies and tactics to cause the most amount of economic damage as possible. In addition, the idea of momentum is pushed to create a movement that continues to grow to successfully stop the destruction of life. More and more actions need to be taken in order for this success to become a reality [2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.]."

Edited excerpt from The Earth Liberation Front: 1997-2002 by Leslie James Pickering (Arissa Publications) and the ELF website http://www.EarthLiberationFront.com. Reprinted with permission.

http://www.satyamag.com/mar04/elf.html

Eco-, animal-rights terrorism called threat
Thursday, May 19, 2005

Quote :

"WASHINGTON -- Environmental and animal-rights activists who have turned to arson and explosives are the nation's top domestic terrorism threat, an FBI official told a Senate committee yesterday [emphasis added]. Groups such as the Animal Liberation Front, the Earth Liberation Front [emphasis added] and Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty are 'way out in front' in terms of damage and number of crimes, said John Lewis, the FBI's deputy assistant director for counterterrorism. 'There is nothing else going on in this country over the last several years that is racking up the high number of violent crimes and terrorist actions,' Lewis said[emphasis added]."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/224826_ecoterrorist19.html

[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 5:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2008 5:28:00 PM

Quote :

"They're just a bunch of bored upper class white kids rebelling against their parents"

and Usama bin Ladin was just a "bored upper class Saudi kid rebelling against his parents"

they're obviously not in the same universe as far as Osama when it comes to terrorists, but you can't just dismiss what they've done as "bah so what" just because you might agree with some of their ideologies

3/4/2008 5:31:36 PM

hmm....

the thread seems to have taken a turn huh?

3/4/2008 5:36:22 PM

i dont agree with any of their ideologies. Im saying they're completely irrelevent. The only power they have over anyone is what the media gives them. By dismissing their actions as a cry for attention you remove any benefit they may have been trying to gain through their actions. Then you toss them in jail.

If they were blowing up busses and flying planes into towers it would be different. Right wing pundits like eco-terrorism because it gives them something to talk about. Its bush=hitler on the left. Worthless arguing for the sake of ratings. In the end the only people that suffer are you and me. Because we spend time and resources on non-issues instead of real problems.

3/4/2008 5:50:25 PM

Quote :

"but you can't just dismiss what they've done as "bah so what" just because you might agree with some of their ideologies"

nice strawman. i dont agree with their ideologies, and how exactly is "prosecute them with arson" the same as saying "bah so what" ?


but, hell.. if you're going to compare E.L.F. and OBL as variations on the same theme (terrorism)...

we need to go invade Cuba right now and relieve them of their WMDs and bring a beacon of democracy to their oppressed, huddled masses. Because that would the only appropriate response to the unmitigated horrors brought about by the Army of the 12 monkeys. I mean, E.L.F.





[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 5:54 PM. Reason : ]

3/4/2008 5:52:03 PM

of course this is coming from people who think the biggest problems in the US are the gays and the mex-e-cans.

3/4/2008 5:54:10 PM

yeah, you know these guys.

nothing like our friendly "limited government conservatives" solving the worlds problems by creating ever more new laws though there already are sufficient laws to deal with it already on the books.

3/4/2008 5:57:19 PM

^^^^ Yeah, millions of dollars worth of damage and an atmosphere of terrorism don't matter at all. Let somebody burn your god damn house down in the name of "the movement" or some bullshit and see how you feel.

In any event, your opinions mean nothing when weighed against the facts:

Quote :

"WASHINGTON -- Environmental and animal-rights activists who have turned to arson and explosives are the nation's top domestic terrorism threat, an FBI official told a Senate committee yesterday [emphasis added]. Groups such as the Animal Liberation Front, the Earth Liberation Front [emphasis added] and Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty are 'way out in front' in terms of damage and number of crimes, said John Lewis, the FBI's deputy assistant director for counterterrorism. 'There is nothing else going on in this country over the last several years that is racking up the high number of violent crimes and terrorist actions,' Lewis said [emphasis added]."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/224826_ecoterrorist19.html

^^ and ^ Two of the most idiotic posts I've seen in a while.

[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 6:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2008 6:03:39 PM

i can't help it. im really just losing my focus over large blocks of bolded text.

in fact, im fuzzing over everything that fits the template:

-------------------------------

^^^^^rant

Quote :

"quote cut-n-paste bold cut-n-paste bold link "

snark
^^rant
:rolly:

-------------------------------

as much as i want to try and sift through it to find something intelligible, its just too depressing to be continually disappointed by the same vapid and inane material, over and over and over






[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 8:26 PM. Reason : ]

3/4/2008 8:24:55 PM

Since you're having trouble grasping the facts, I'll post them it again for you:

Quote :

"WASHINGTON -- Environmental and animal-rights activists who have turned to arson and explosives are the nation's top domestic terrorism threat, an FBI official told a Senate committee yesterday [emphasis added]. Groups such as the Animal Liberation Front, the Earth Liberation Front [emphasis added] and Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty are 'way out in front' in terms of damage and number of crimes, said John Lewis, the FBI's deputy assistant director for counterterrorism. 'There is nothing else going on in this country over the last several years that is racking up the high number of violent crimes and terrorist actions,' Lewis said [emphasis added]."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/224826_ecoterrorist19.html

You really should try a link or two supporting your positions once in a while, schmoe. I mean, it beats the shit out of just your opinions, which as far as I can tell are based on nothing more than your left-wing ideology.

PS: Apparently, even the Seattle P-I (GASP!) realizes that ELF is a terrorist organization, schmoe. Are you left of them?

[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 9:17 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2008 9:13:21 PM

Quote :

"blah blah blah blah blah blah [emphasis added] blah blah blah blah blah blah blah [double-dog-emphasis added] blah blah blah blah blah blah blah [emphasis added] blah linkylink "

thats all i see






[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 11:35 PM. Reason : ]

3/4/2008 11:33:34 PM

the first indicator of a truly stupid argument is quoting the fucking dictionary

3/5/2008 12:11:32 AM

Well now that Webster (^^^) has properly defined how he thinks this is terrorism and given us an FBI's opinion[emphasis added] we can hopefully advance this discussion above his drivel.

I do think it is odd that this FBI agent says environmental and animal-rights activists are "the nation's top domestic terrorism threat" yet this is the first story we've heard in a long, long time and have certainly paled in comparisons to rampant college shootings. So perhaps Bush & Co.'s war and paranoia against environmentalism is greater than their concerns for college campus safety.

[Edited on March 5, 2008 at 12:16 AM. Reason : .]

3/5/2008 12:16:05 AM