[quote] Not so long ago, the average mid-twentysomething had achieved most of adulthood's milestones – high school degree, financial independence, marriage and children. These days, he lingers – happily – in a new hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. Decades in unfolding, this limbo may not seem like news to many, but in fact it is to the early 21st century what adolescence was to the early 20th: a momentous sociological development of profound economic and cultural import.

It's time to state what is now obvious to legions of frustrated young women: The limbo doesn't bring out the best in young men.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-hymowitz_27edi.ART0.State.Edition1.378ca5b.html


Found this article thru NPR.

It's funny b/c me and a friend were just discussing this the other night... I thought that now that I'm 26, I'd be able to find a guy close to my age who's mature... instead I have to look in the 30-something range to find a real MAN instead of lazy boys.

To qualify some things, I don't want kids, I like geeky things too-- gaming, anime, etc-- and I don't want to be a stay-at-home woman.
I don't mind guys who game and have have toys. But I don't want a guy who has no ambition for anything better, who's content going to work and doing nothing but playing computer games, or better yet, not working at all. I don't want a guy who's not going to help me cook or keep the place clean.


I DON"T WANT TO BE YOUR MOM! /rant

umm so there.

1/28/2008 3:11:33 PM

preach on sista!

1/28/2008 3:13:08 PM

1/28/2008 3:14:13 PM

I've found the exact opposite.

I'm 24 and have dated one girl younger than me in my lifetime....and her immaturity was a big reason why we broke up.

I don't mind being single, so I'm not complaining...but I'm in a town over-run with women and I'm really having a difficult time finding a female my age that has enough sanity and maturity to date.


Would also like to add that the art of cooking has completely disappeared in our generation.

1/28/2008 3:16:13 PM

do you cook?

1/28/2008 3:17:50 PM

Yes.

1/28/2008 3:32:02 PM

Quote :

" Would also like to add that the art of cooking has completely disappeared in our generation."

No it hasn't, it is just rare. I cook for my girlfriend almost every night.

1/28/2008 3:32:51 PM

I love to cook, and its much easier to cook for two than one. Its finding a decent girl worth the time....

1/28/2008 3:33:35 PM

Quote :

"No it hasn't, it is just rare. I cook for my girlfriend almost every night."

I meant that it's disappeared in the women of our generation.

Which has been supported by two more guys in this thread saying that they cook for women.

1/28/2008 3:37:23 PM

I cook, but I'm not going to cook every night just for myself. And I'm not going to cook every night if the guy doesnt cook every other night

1/28/2008 3:39:03 PM

Based on my experiences, I agree with sylvershadow.

I'm equally as sure that there are many adult 20-something males out there looking for their female counterparts and becoming equally frustrated.

1/28/2008 3:40:51 PM

it aint just the guys

1/28/2008 3:41:38 PM

*claps*

1/28/2008 3:43:42 PM

i'd rather cook for myself because i'd do it better than a female

1/28/2008 3:45:13 PM

I think part of it is that our generation hasn't had anything that really made us grow up. Guys don't have the whole "you're going to get drafted, so you're a man now" mentality, and our mothers stopped training us to be housewives straight out of high school.

But I do think a lot of people could stand to grow up a little, or a lot.

1/28/2008 3:45:48 PM

Maybe we're just adjusting for our longer lifespans?


At least men don't bitch about their vaginas bleeding for a week straight every month.

1/28/2008 3:49:37 PM

Maybe not, but they damn sure bitch about ours.

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 3:50 PM. Reason : .]

1/28/2008 3:50:40 PM

people are in too much of a damn hurry to grow up now a days...typically this applies to women but some dudes also

1/28/2008 3:57:32 PM

ha! I just heard this on ToTN. I know that I am totally fine with my husband having toys and playing with them just as long as his 1st commitment is to our family.

his day
work----family time----XBox 360.

I think I am lucky.

1/28/2008 3:59:09 PM

sylvershadow, you and novicane or that caddy guy would be perfect for each other

1/28/2008 3:59:12 PM

This has been obvious to me since I first moved up here to Raleigh. Bunch of youngans running around everywhere, even alot of the older people try to act all hip. This is what happens when people aren't raised right or loose their focus in life.

1/28/2008 3:59:15 PM

Quote :

"instead I have to look in the 30-something range to find a real MAN instead of lazy boys. "

1/28/2008 3:59:37 PM

I also think that article isn't really looking at cause and effect in the right way.

The world is a completely different place now than it was 30 years ago.

30 years ago you could graduate college (shit, even high school) and get a solid job and begin to make a solid living. You probably had your "fun years" in high school or at least college (so you've gotten it out of your system). Basically you're in a good position to settle down.

Fast forward to the present. You definitely can't get a good job if you've only graduated high school. And as many can attest to on this website, a college degree surely doesn't guarantee a job right away...and if it does, it's not necessarily a job that will give you a salary to live a comfortable life. So then you might have to work an extra five years before you hit that point to where you can buy your first house or even get close to supporting a wife/family. And thats if you don't choose to go to some type of grad school. Then hopefully you can get a good job after that and be in a position to start a family...and that's if you don't have over a 100k in loans to pay back.

And that's just the financial/employment aspect of today's world. Today the world has also gotten a lot smaller. 30 years ago you were more than likely to stay in the same area you grew up or went to college in. There's a lot more opportunity to travel with jobs and just for recreation. Its hard to settle down when you're in sales and you're traveling 10 months out of the year. Personally, I'm going to travel in Europe for a couple months after I get out of grad school because I want to do it before I "settle down." I just think there is more stuff that guys (and girls) CAN and WANT to do before they get to that point where they want to get serious.

As far as guys in their mid-twenties still playing video games and renting apartments with "other single guys"...that's just a product of our environment. Guys get together and play video games and women get together and watch Grey's Anatomy...both are fantasy worlds and not one bit productive. Guys are still renting out apartments in their mid-20s because there aren't enough good jobs out there to support people buying houses at that age.

Personally, I want to be out of grad school and settled down with my finances and employment position before I feel like I want to bring another person in my life to take care of. Its not a set plan...I was very serious with a 26-year old earlier this year that just didn't work out (and it wasn't because I was immature or only 24 years old). The world has changed and men (and women too) just aren't ready for that kind of life at the same age as they were 30 years ago.

And although I'm not like this...why should a guy act like this mature-ready-to-settle-down type of man when he's not in the position to do so? If a guy isn't ready to get married, then he should be able to go out and get drunk and go home and play video games with he friends as much as he wants to.

So basically quit your bitching. There are guys out there your age that fit what you're looking for...but I guess not as many as you'd like. So what's wrong with going a few years older or waiting a few years more? Its what I've had to do.

1/28/2008 4:09:03 PM

Quote :

"thought that now that I'm 26, I'd be able to find a guy close to my age who's mature... instead I have to look in the 30-something range to find a real MAN instead of lazy boys"

Older men FTW

1/28/2008 4:10:24 PM

Quote :

"I think part of it is that our generation hasn't had anything that really made us grow up."

I also agree with this. I've noticed with girls that I've dated...the ones who have been pampered growing up, never had to work, have had everything handed to them, etc...are the most immature ones by far. Even girls who grew up with money, but have had to go through a tragedy (divorce, death of a parent, etc) tend to be more grounded and more mature.

Since our generation hasn't had World Wars or depressions to go through, we have to rely on personal experiences to shape our maturity/work ethic/general disposition on life. Its why I really pay attention to girls when they talk about their family and their lives growing up. You can get a lot from that.

1/28/2008 4:15:03 PM

30's the new 20 nigga

1/28/2008 4:19:19 PM

Quote :

"Would also like to add that the art of cooking has completely disappeared in our generation."

I disagree. It's a lot easier not to cook, granted, because when we want our dinner we want it NOW, by God. And it's much easier to order it off a menu or microwave a box than it is to plan, buy ingredients, and whatnot. I end up not cooking much more often than I'd like. But when I put my mind to it, I can make some good stuff, dammit. Give me a recipe and set me loose, and usually it works out great. And my girlfriend is a far better cook than me, plus she has the gift where a recipe is more of a "loose guideline" and can improv the rest and end up with something better than the original.

I guess that's just a microcosm of the whole article, but...obviously the article has some merit. There are a lot of guys who do tend to live in a drawn-out adolescence. Hell, I fall under many of the article's conditions; I'm 27 but single, have a roommate, and enjoy such things as watching sports and gaming in my spare time. But I don't think those are black and white tests for a lack of maturiity--I also have a good job and ambition to move up in it, working part-time on a master's degree, enjoy a good book just as much as or more than a video game, and I'm in a good relationship.

The thing that bothers me a bit about the article is that it almost feels to me like it's preaching a "separate but equal" among 20-something men and women. Women are "hyper-achieving" while "shopping, traveling, and dining with friends" while men are "underachieving" while they "hang out in a playground of drinking, hooking up, (and) playing Halo." I find it funny how the article assigns to women the highbrow-sounding activities and asserts that they are uniformly breaking down barriers and grabbing their fair share in the workplace and school, while guys are skulking around the periphery of responsibility while their less, um, savory pursuits are thrown in the spotlight. I guess guys don't travel and girls don't indulge in anything that could be viewed in an unsavory light? Indeed. It may be futile arguing this battle, but it seems a little unbalanced to me. But wait, it's an opinion article, it doesn't have to be balanced!

I'm not attacking the premise, per se, because a LOT of this type of dude do exist (just look around TWW for many shining examples). But they CERTAINLY have their female counterparts too, which the article oh-so-blissfully glosses over. Girl power, or something....

1/28/2008 4:21:35 PM

i agree with jbrick a lot about the parents growing up kinda thing....i've never seen or met my real dad.....have a stepdad thats pretty much as close to a real father as i could get anyways....i've met a few broads before that have similar circumstances and i've usually always liked them(more than just wanting to have sex, like could date them or what not)

1/28/2008 4:22:12 PM

I actually agree with most of what jbrick said. ESPECIALLY the part about buying a home to live in, as opposed to renting an apartment. Real estate prices have risen far faster than incomes have risen, and as such, it takes a lot more saving and time to land yourself in a house comparable to what your parents would have bought when they were your age.

For the record, I also agree about the "how you were raised". I was raised by two parents (still married) who are middle class, but not upper middle class. I've not asked for anything since I was old enough to get a job and have paid my own bills since then. I grew up with a LOT of pampered kids, who may be wonderful people, but know jack shit about how to live life as an adult. How to balance a checkbook, pay bills on time, put some $$ in savings so you don't go run to mom and dad every time you need new tires, etc. It amazes me how different our mindsets continue to be, even through our 20's.


I think that the social stigma that "guys mature slower than girls" does continue throughout life, and this article was written as an extension of that stigma. It may be true for the most part, but there are exceptions to the rule within BOTH genders.

1/28/2008 4:36:04 PM

fyi: about the cooking - I've started cooking on the weekends (or at least doing the bulk of the prep during the weekends) as I'm usually starving by the time I get home from work. I would use a crock put but my roommates dog would eat the contents during the day

It helps a lot .

1/28/2008 4:37:10 PM

Quote :

"what your parents would have bought when they were your age."

they also had to put up with 18% mortgage rates though

1/28/2008 4:37:15 PM

true, some things have changed for the better.

1/28/2008 4:39:28 PM

Quote :

"The thing that bothers me a bit about the article is that it almost feels to me like it's preaching a "separate but equal" among 20-something men and women. Women are "hyper-achieving" while "shopping, traveling, and dining with friends" while men are "underachieving" while they "hang out in a playground of drinking, hooking up, (and) playing Halo." I find it funny how the article assigns to women the highbrow-sounding activities and asserts that they are uniformly breaking down barriers and grabbing their fair share in the workplace and school, while guys are skulking around the periphery of responsibility while their less, um, savory pursuits are thrown in the spotlight. I guess guys don't travel and girls don't indulge in anything that could be viewed in an unsavory light? Indeed. It may be futile arguing this battle, but it seems a little unbalanced to me."

I heard that NPR thing that the thread maker mentioned, and one caller called her out on the term child-men and the sentiment behind it.

Quote :

"The world is a completely different place now than it was 30 years ago. 30 years ago you could graduate college (shit, even high school) and get a solid job and begin to make a solid living."

"when we want our dinner we want it NOW, by God"

Even with a college degree the only job I could get at first had me working 7 am to 7 pm on a regular basis... between driving time thats 13 hours a day atleast if you do nothing in a given day but go to work, come home eat, go to bed, and wake up to do it again the next day. The kind of work you can get these days with high school and under grad degrees doesn't always lend itself to having any other options than having your dinner now by god. And even when your schedule isn't that tight, I don't see it as any sign of immaturity to balance your time in a way that suites your needs even if it doesn't include spending an hour on dinner each day.

Luckily I advanced beyond that and am still 23, but when I see how many incredibly bright people in their late 20s & early 30s with masters degrees are applying for receptionist positions where I work, I think there is something to the idea that society has shifted to the point that you can't be financially/vocationally stable at as young of an age.

"but have had to go through a tragedy"

While I respect people who are "grown up" I have no trouble and feel that people should be free to spend their personal time how they want instead of falling in with societal restrictions on entertainment & fun at a certain. And I'd never want a loved one to have endured extra tragedy just to help their personality fit my tastes.

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 4:47 PM. Reason : .]

1/28/2008 4:43:22 PM

There are some interesting things being said in this thread and I enjoyed reading the article posted

but all I can think of is

I JUST WANNAN PLAYED VIDYA GAMES!

1/28/2008 4:51:14 PM

Quote :

"30's the new 20"

30's the new 25 IMO...

1/28/2008 4:55:06 PM

^^rofl


i'm 25 and had the same career for over 2.5 years now and engaged... and i wouldn't even consider myself extremely mature. i think some of you are just looking in the wrong places.

1/28/2008 5:01:22 PM

on the same note...while men are the primary culprits, bitches are guilty of this shit too. too many self involved broads are trying to be one of the sex in the characters.

1/28/2008 5:02:58 PM

Quote :

"It's funny b/c me and a friend were just discussing this the other night... I thought that now that I'm 26, I'd be able to find a guy close to my age who's mature... instead I have to look in the 30-something range to find a real MAN instead of lazy boys."

you must be in some shitty 'circles' or know some really dumbass guys.

1/28/2008 5:03:49 PM

Not so long ago, the average mid-twentysomething had achieved most of adulthood's milestones - high school degree, financial dependence, marriage and children. These days, she lingers - happily - in a new hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance

It's time to state what is now obvious to legions of frustrated young men: The limbo doesn't bring out the best in young women.

1/28/2008 5:09:14 PM

I think there is a fundamental difference between having the trappings of maturity and an adult life, and actually BEING mature and leading an adult life.

1/28/2008 5:09:25 PM

Quote :

"I think part of it is that our generation hasn't had anything that really made us grow up. Guys don't have the whole "you're going to get drafted, so you're a man now" mentality, and our mothers stopped training us to be housewives straight out of high school."

I'd agree with that. I mean, just because a woman has more things she wants to do than stay in the kitchen cooking doesn't mean she's some sort of immature failure.

Basically:

Quote :

"It's a lot easier not to cook, granted, because when we want our dinner we want it NOW, by God. And it's much easier to order it off a menu or microwave a box than it is to plan, buy ingredients, and whatnot. I end up not cooking much more often than I'd like. But when I put my mind to it, I can make some good stuff, dammit."

I don't enjoy that the article is placing most of the immaturity on guys, but I do think women feel more pressure to succeed in the workplace, etc. I also don't like that "marriage" and "children" are listed as essential parts of an "adult" life. Because really, that's bullshit.

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 5:20 PM. Reason : /]

1/28/2008 5:19:35 PM

I'm going to say this to the original poster and the legions of women like her:

You aren't mature.

You aren't interesting.

You don't compare to your mothers before you.

You want to be given everything

You want to give nothing.

You Fail.


And that is why men still rule the world and will continue to do so till will nuke ourselves to extinction.








PS-

Stop pretending to like football and then saying dumbshit like "brett farve looks like he has downs."

1/28/2008 5:22:03 PM

Right or wrong,





I'm not seeing any downside from the male perspective.

1/28/2008 5:23:48 PM

Quote :

"high school degree, financial independence, marriage and children"

we all know thats the most important one amirite

1/28/2008 5:24:34 PM

^^^ Chill out, SandVagina.

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 5:27 PM. Reason : misogyny ftl]

1/28/2008 5:25:06 PM

Quote :

"I think that the social stigma that "guys mature slower than girls" does continue throughout life, and this article was written as an extension of that stigma."

yea, that is like saying "girls learn math slower than guys"

1/28/2008 5:27:26 PM

I'm not saying

I'm just sayin'.

1/28/2008 5:29:25 PM

"women can't drive for shit" definitely continues throughout life as well

1/28/2008 5:29:52 PM

I was saying the social stigma continues, not that the stigma was necessarily true. Just to be clear (I re-read it and figured it could be taken either way).

1/28/2008 5:30:55 PM

is this really a surprise? you have plenty of people that are mature by the time they are 21 and plenty that aren't - basically all due to the differing life experiences that each person has - some people "grow up" quicker

Quote :

"instead I have to look in the 30-something range to find a real MAN instead of lazy boys.""

you are hanging around losers then - that statement should definitely no longer be true once you hit your mid-20s but i would agree that the percentage of "real men" might be higher in the 30s

this goes both ways

1/28/2008 5:37:11 PM