omg parody!

http://tinyurl.com/26jtr6

Chinese sub is able to get within Torpedo range of a US carrier undetected....time to spend more money on our technology?

11/13/2007 1:01:41 AM

if that can be confirmed, then that is pretty serious


although its not that surprising since those scumbags have been stealing our military technology for years

11/13/2007 1:15:57 AM

Quote :

"Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War."

This was my first thought as well. The US outclassed the Soviets for years and grew complacent with their perceived lead.

11/13/2007 1:33:41 AM

^^ Russian technology had more to do with this than any american technology.

11/13/2007 1:54:23 AM

haha, where do you think the Russians got their stuff?

11/13/2007 2:06:10 AM

11/13/2007 2:12:23 AM

^^ Germany

11/13/2007 2:13:12 AM

^^ God that was a shit movie.

11/13/2007 2:14:41 AM

you do realize that it is practically impossible to detect a submerged submarine these days, no matter to what country it belongs, right? I mean, you basically have to really fuck up as a sub captain in order to get spotted

11/13/2007 6:44:20 AM

^ what are you basing that statement on?

11/13/2007 7:46:46 AM

Quote :

"although its not that surprising since those scumbags have been stealing our military technology for years"

Imitation is the best form of flattery.

11/13/2007 8:10:51 AM

Quote :

"The US outclassed the Soviets for years and grew complacent with their perceived lead."

Our anti-submarine warfare (ASW) program has lapsed in recent years simply because it hasn't been remotely the focus of the DoD.

11/13/2007 8:12:33 AM

^ That's the downside of being the dominant military power for a long period of time. You take it for granted and then one day are surprised that someone's right on your ass.

11/13/2007 8:18:00 AM

That and the focus has been the GWOT. I don't know how the Navy's funding has gone, but I'm sure they didn't dedicate large amounts of money to sub-surface warfare when the most relevant (supposedly) use of the Navy was surface to shore projection of power.

11/13/2007 8:25:32 AM

Quote :

"although its not that surprising since those scumbags have been stealing our military technology for years"

yeah, it sucked when those slippery bastards stole that gunpowder we invented

11/13/2007 10:01:45 AM

Quote :

"although its not that surprising since those scumbags have been stealing our military technology for years""

you mean clinton was selling it

11/13/2007 10:49:50 AM

You mean Israel was selling it once we donated it to them.

11/13/2007 10:53:36 AM

^^ No, there were a lot of dirty back-door dealings between the WJC administration and the Chinese. Hell, he wanted to lease the Long Beach Naval Station to them after BRAC closed it down despite the fact that the company getting the lease was being investigated for smuggling AK-47s into LA for use by street gangs.

The Clinton - China connection is shady at best.

11/13/2007 11:02:35 AM

Now im no naval strategist or admiral, but.....it seems like that was a dumb move on chinas part. wouldn't it have been wiser to not let us know they have that capability, rather than show us in a practical joke sort of way that we are vulnerable. I mean the "checkmate" we gotcha thing is kinda funny for them, but now we know we are vulnerable.

11/13/2007 11:13:43 AM

Militarily yes, but they're posturing. They're more interested in looking good and embarrassing us than they are in actually going to war with us anyways.

11/13/2007 12:01:33 PM

this is an old story fyi

happened way earlier in the year

11/13/2007 12:03:43 PM

Song Class are Diesel-Electric subs. When running in electric mode, they are quieter than a Nuke...the only way to detect them would have been a gaffe on the part of the chinese sub or by pinging active sonar.

Thanks to the likes of greepeace, the navy doesn't run active sonar very much. The shit happens all the time during training exercises. When we were doing joint NATO ops off of Iceland on my destroyer, Turkish Type 209's were able to get close enough to strike.

This isn't really shocking other than the fact that china would actually execute a stunt like this

11/13/2007 1:09:24 PM

^ What he said.

From my time in the USN, I understood that once you are on battery, you are virtually undetectable. I mean, I remember all this was a huge concern when we were sitting off the coast of Yugoslavia about to lob Slobodan some Tomahawks.

He had a bunch of old Soviet subs that he had in caves and I remember something about only being detect them when they were leaving the caves before going to battery. He evidently would only take them out for limited intervals and pull back into caves for recharging.

All that and the Navy is also basically focusing on littoral warfare these days.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 1:21 PM. Reason : e]

11/13/2007 1:20:49 PM

Quote :

"yeah, it sucked when those slippery bastards stole that gunpowder we invented"

don't be a fucking idiot, go back to chit chat.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 1:32 PM. Reason : k]

11/13/2007 1:32:38 PM

my brother is a naval pilot....he laughed about this

11/13/2007 1:39:21 PM

I think they prefer "Naval Aviator"



[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 1:52 PM. Reason : .]

11/13/2007 1:52:16 PM

Quote :

"don't be a fucking idiot, go back to chit chat."

yes, because that's where i mostly post nowadays...

giterdun!

11/13/2007 1:59:23 PM

Quote :

"I think they prefer "Naval Aviator""

of course they do, which is why i call him a naval pilot....just to fuck with him

11/13/2007 2:00:23 PM

ironically diesel electric subs or the newer german Stirling engine powered subs are extremely quiet, they just have very limited range and applications compared with nukes.

china's nukes are loud as fuck...

basically if we run active detection not much can get through, but that's usually not done...


if we were actively at war you can bet your ass active sonar will be run constantly and nothing like this even has a chance of happening


[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 2:14 PM. Reason : what goalie said ]

11/13/2007 2:11:31 PM

Stirling engine submarines?!

11/13/2007 2:18:01 PM

Quote :

"Militarily yes, but they're posturing. They're more interested in looking good and embarrassing us than they are in actually going to war with us anyways."

Pretty much . It gives them a chance to test their stuff out, while showing OTHER countries they can sneak up on the big, bad US.

Quote :

""

11/13/2007 2:46:39 PM

^^Yes the Stirling powered subs can run about 14 days at 5 knots without the need to surface or snorkel for more air. Its not known for sure in the public anyways whether these subs have this capability or not, but several European countries have subs with these onboard.

But this sub is nothing new. Russian Kilo class subs in good hands could do the same thing. Most diesel-electric subs from the last 25 years could do the exact same thing. This one has some better technology, as it pairs some Western tech with some Russian design, but its still based off 80's technology and suffers because of this.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 2:54 PM. Reason : ]

11/13/2007 2:51:53 PM

This is like when somebody's beating the living shit out of you at Street Fighter, and you slip in a fast jab to prevent them from getting a "perfect." Is this what countries consider a military victory against the US these days? I think it's more embarrassing for the Chinese that something like this would be something to brag about.

11/13/2007 2:56:27 PM

^ We've had the appearance of invincibility in the water and have ruled the seas for a couple decades with no equal, and the Chinese pretty much showed that they could go through our protection convoy undetected and sink a carrier (no small loss) if they desired. It was just a propaganda show to show they could do it. If you've ever read post-WWII naval history books, that is a large part of winning the war on naval capability between countries. Soviet destroyers used to rough up American submarines and vice versa just to show they could do it during the Cold War.

On the long-term, I think they're trying to make it increasingly clear to the U.S. that they are our equal militarily, so that we cannot interfere with their geopolitical hopes and desires (like Taiwan, domination of the east and central Asian sphere of influence).

They're not there yet thankfully, but they're taking steps toward that goal.

Quote :

"^^Yes the Stirling powered subs can run about 14 days at 5 knots without the need to surface or snorkel for more air. Its not known for sure in the public anyways whether these subs have this capability or not, but several European countries have subs with these onboard."

Sounds like they are excellent defense subs, just sit in a spot and wait for the enemy to come to attack your mainland, but they're not good long-range attack subs.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 3:07 PM. Reason : /]

11/13/2007 3:03:17 PM

Quote :

"this is an old story fyi happened way earlier in the year"

A quick google search says you're right. http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2007/11/song-class-submarine-resurfaces-again.html

11/13/2007 3:20:39 PM

This type of sub solves a lot of the range/endurance issues with normal diesel subs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

11/13/2007 4:58:58 PM

Damn, that thing isn't much bigger than a WWII sub.

11/13/2007 5:02:13 PM

Yeah they're fairly advanced, dead quiet, and have much better underwater range than purely diesel-electric subs. Luckily it's our allies developing them anyways. China with a dozen of these would be a little scarier since we'd have fewer chances to spot and track them as they surfaced to recharge their batteries.

Quote :

"The submarine can operate at high speed on diesel power or switch to the AIP system for silent slow cruising, staying submerged for up to three weeks without surfacing and with no exhaust heat."

For the purposes of being a non-nuclear attack sub that's fairly sufficient.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 5:06 PM. Reason : ]

11/13/2007 5:05:30 PM

Magnetic anomaly detection, people


[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 5:40 PM. Reason : /]

11/13/2007 5:33:41 PM

Well those are usually mounted on airplanes and have to be practically near/over the sub to detect it. They're fine if you know a sub's going to be coming and trying to screen for it, but they don't make much sense as means for alerting you of a sneak attack.

11/13/2007 5:48:33 PM

still, subs aren't undetectable

and p3's aren't the only plane with the MAD boom. i believe some h-60s are outfitted with them to serve as anti-sub aircraft, and they're of course carried on carriers and destroyers

11/13/2007 5:50:15 PM

I'm pretty sure the SH3 also has them or can be mounted with them. Anyways, saying undetectable is definately an overstatement. They are however dangerously difficult to detect when not on higher-than-normal alert for subs.

The real difficulty with them is still the limited range. Also signatures in crowded areas would be fairly difficult to distinguish- espescially if some of them came from low-profile non-ferrous sources.

Still, this is pretty old- not just the article but the fact that the US Navy has been concerned with the threat posed by diesel submarines. I'm sure they're always developing more and more sophisticated EM field detectors. Hell, the current detectors are much more sophisticated than their name implies. They don't JUST detect disturbances int he Earth's magnetic field.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 5:58 PM. Reason : ]

11/13/2007 5:53:21 PM

indeed.

and anyone trying to make claims like this:

Quote :

"you do realize that it is practically impossible to detect a submerged submarine these days, no matter to what country it belongs, right? I mean, you basically have to really fuck up as a sub captain in order to get spotted"

is completely out of their league. ASW technology is some of the most highly guarded/classified stuff there is

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 6:02 PM. Reason : ,]

11/13/2007 6:01:43 PM

Well, I guess they thought the qualifier "practically" had them covered. In some ways maybe it does. It is really impractical to have MAD detectors flying over all the places you'd want to be on the look-out. So maybe saying that the means to detect them with confidence are highly impractical would have been more accurate?

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 6:08 PM. Reason : ]

11/13/2007 6:08:13 PM

right

but the point was, some random yahoo from TWW can't make a call like that because of the secretive nature of ASW technology. he doesn't know shit, is the point really. none of us really do. i mean, we know what's currently out there in the public domain, but beyond that, we have no idea what type of technology exists

11/13/2007 6:16:35 PM

Yeah, and if they had an extremely secretive form of EM detection that could detect subs at range, allowing subs to sneak up despite this every now and then would be just part of keeping it secret. Coventry anyone? Besides, allowing a Chinese sub to get close every now and then isn't nearly as risky as allowing a city to be bombed.

I hope that's the case though and not just wishful thinking. Based on what IS actually available, it's perfectly reasonable to believe we may not be not adequately protected from diesel subs.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 6:21 PM. Reason : ]

11/13/2007 6:19:24 PM

I do know shit as I was qualified as the Anti-Submarine Warfare coordinator on my destroyer...subs running on electric are an absolute pain in the ass to find even when you know they are out there, have a dozen ships looking for it, countless sonobouys in the water, and a score of sub hunting planes and helos in the air

but when you go active...well that's a different story

11/14/2007 10:44:01 AM

So I'm guessing that "MAD" doesn't play a big role in that then? I mean from what I've seen on the principles of the tech it really does look like trying to find something in the dark with a laser pointer.

11/14/2007 10:50:07 AM

Quote :

"I do know shit as I was qualified as the Anti-Submarine Warfare coordinator on my destroyer...subs running on electric are an absolute pain in the ass to find even when you know they are out there, have a dozen ships looking for it, countless sonobouys in the water, and a score of sub hunting planes and helos in the air but when you go active...well that's a different story"

So it's a "shoot once and that's it for surprise" sub?

11/14/2007 11:05:45 AM

How is it that TSB can take a parody thread and make it into a serious discussion, but regular threads generally go to shit before the second page?

11/14/2007 11:17:42 AM