Cops?

5/1/2007 4:45:15 PM

because i'm sure i'd shoot a lot of people with them. It probably comes down to lots of others would too, as a way of retaliation, or to teach a lesson....to hurt, maim, whatever. Lots of scenarios.

5/1/2007 4:51:05 PM

I cant imagine why anyone other than cops would want them.

5/1/2007 5:06:46 PM

^ then you sir dont think very hard

Lets say i DONT want to kill the dog that is screwing up my parents yard and that has attacked their dogs in the past. Other dogs that came into the yard and did crap liek that i jsut killed outright, lets say this time i want rubber buckshot, or oc powder, so i can send him packing without killing him. The same round are great for an initial round in a self defense gun, for a warning shot, whatever you want to use it for. I can buy bird banger rounds, rubber rounds, ect for myself, but only as i have a hookup to get them through at the moment.

5/1/2007 5:10:30 PM

if you're willing to draw a gun and shoot at something


you should probably be prepared to kill it

5/1/2007 5:14:32 PM

Quote :

"if you're willing to draw a gun and shoot at something you should probably be prepared to kill it"

5/1/2007 5:22:41 PM

they're not non-lethal, they're called "less-lethal". you hit someone in the head or chest with one, and they still die.

5/1/2007 5:26:45 PM

^^^^ u can pry open the end of shells and reload them w/ lots of things to run off dogs. Rock salt, rice, dried beans or anything else hard that is not gonna do damage. it stings but is safe to shoot into the hind-quarters(not face). rock works great jsut make sure to clean and iol the gun good afterwards.

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 5:27 PM. Reason : ^]

5/1/2007 5:26:49 PM

Although it seems a little silly at first, ^^^^ is a good argument for it banning them.

I don't think we need to do anything to lower the threshold for the use of force.



[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 5:27 PM. Reason : /]

5/1/2007 5:27:23 PM

Quote :

"if you're willing to draw a gun and shoot at something you should probably be prepared to kill it"

5/1/2007 8:13:13 PM

Quote :

"if you're willing to draw a gun and shoot at something you should probably be prepared to kill it"

5/1/2007 8:31:45 PM

^i agree. and reloaded shells (with salt, beans, etc.) would probably be less harmful than the rounds in "non-lethal" rounds

5/1/2007 8:39:03 PM

You may not be able to get them at Davi's but why would anyone who knows anything about firearms shop there anyway? I know several places that sell less lethal rounds. For example, Sportsman Guide sells rubber buckshot.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=180455
http://image.sportsmansguide.com/dimage/10451_ts.JPG?cell=200,200&cvt=jpeg

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 8:51 PM. Reason : [/img]]

5/1/2007 8:50:17 PM

or to run off a dog you could just use a bb gun, or pellet gun, or paint ball gun

5/1/2007 8:58:10 PM

or you could just throw a rock or two like a normal person.

5/1/2007 9:05:04 PM

or get creative: http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=474880, but just use softer things

5/1/2007 9:09:56 PM

or chase it off.

feral dogs aren't very common in these parts.

5/1/2007 9:20:32 PM

turn a 5-gallon plastic bucket upside down and backfill it with acetylene gas.

rig your choice of remotely-activated fuse to the bucket.

set a hotdog on top of the bucket and wait for dog to approach.

$profit.

5/2/2007 1:35:14 AM

Quote :

"they're not non-lethal, they're called "less-lethal". you hit someone in the head or chest with one, and they still die. "

yay for the correct answer. If you shoot it, it isn't "non-lethal". It's called blunt force trauma or.... damn, forget the other one. If I shoot you in the chest with a rubber bullet, bean bag, or other LESS LETHAL ammo, there's a pretty good chance your heart will stop.

And seriously, shooting at a dog with a shotgun? WTF kind of dog is this that you feel the need to shoot at it (regardless of whether you're trying to kill it or not). If it's that big a deal, you can buy dog repellant spray (i.e. pepper spray) all over the place. Dogs aren't stupid, once or twice will probably be enough for it to get the message.

5/2/2007 2:00:12 AM

I can see both points. Anytime you shoot at someone you may kill them, but I can see how these can have an ethical use in home defense. Lots of people use shotguns for home defense and, given the choice, I think many people would choose less lethal shells if given the opportunity. It is still wrong to use them in a situation where they aren't justified to use deadly force, but I see nothing wrong with choosing these over steel or lead shot.

5/2/2007 2:31:06 AM

Skack, the problem comes from what was posted above. People understand that a shotgun can cause serious injuries. People all too often don't understand that "less-lethal" is exactly that and not "less-than-lethal." Then you take all of those people who decide to use this ammo on a pesky dog, someone breaking into their car, or the neighbors who won't turn their music down and figure that they're not breaking any law because "Hey, it's not like it'll kill them." In turn, they'll shoot, injure or kill someone, and go to prison since at a minimum it would be assault with a deadly weapon. Throw in a discharging a firearm within city limits, brandishing, and going about armed on a public highway for good measure as well. People are idiots. We don't need these idiots shooting at people because they're too dumb to understand what something is actually for. If you don't want to shoot someone, don't buy a gun. That's why you can get pepper spray at the grocery store and tasers at the flea market. One of the 4 rules of firearms is "Do not aim at anything you are not willing to destroy." That's a very good rule and it needs to stay that way rather than adding "unless you're using bean bags and just want to scare 'em real good".

5/2/2007 2:50:09 AM

In Virginia, law enforcement officers in certain situations are allowed to do what's often referred to as skip shooting. You aim the shotgun a few yards in front of the suspect and skip the pellets off the ground hitting his legs--it's considered non-lethal.

Get a .22 pellet rifle. Trust me, it'll do all the non-lethal damage you want it to do.

5/2/2007 3:11:40 AM

Quote :

"Lets say i DONT want to kill the dog that is screwing up my parents yard and that has attacked their dogs in the past."

Pellet/bb guns have been effective at this for quite some time now.

5/2/2007 7:10:59 AM

You can purchase them here http://www.ammoman.com/ $75 for 25 12 ga shells. I would imagine that these would absolutly kill a dog. So dont shoot dogs with them. High pressure water FTW.

5/2/2007 9:09:20 AM

Skip shooting is (or at least was) common warfare practice in certain situations. I know it was used in Vietnam often. For one thing it keeps you from shooting high, which is easy to do when you are stressed and under fire yourself.


I think it would be a bad idea to sell these to the public. Basically dave421 said it perfectly. You'd have idiots shooting each other with these things for fun because hey, they aren't lethal! If you want to scare off a dog, spray it with a water hose. That's more than enough deterrent for a dog. If you want to protect your house with a shotgun, be prepared to kill whoever you aim it at. There should only be one possible end result in your mind if you plan to shoot someone, that they are dead after you pull the trigger.

5/2/2007 11:46:15 AM

Quote :

"if you're willing to draw a gun and shoot at something you should probably be prepared to kill it"

I agree but i'd like to hit him with a beanbag, a hornet's nest and some salt, maybe some bird shot too before the slug


(j/k)

5/2/2007 11:49:27 AM

Says it right on the shell.

5/2/2007 12:48:54 PM

Quote :

"I agree but i'd like to hit him with a beanbag, a hornet's nest and some salt, maybe some bird shot too before the slug (j/k) "

Dont be an ass.

5/2/2007 12:50:53 PM

hit up a gun show

I was at one in hickory and found some bean-bag and rubber pellet loads, expensive tho

[Edited on May 2, 2007 at 1:09 PM. Reason : gun show in raleigh this weekend, me thinks]

5/2/2007 1:08:54 PM

my parents live about 35 miles away and are in a rural setting, thus feral dogs are mreo of a problem than one might think, those who run dogs to hunt tend to dump culls, also the local junk buisnesses and the like tend to let their dogs breed, they actualy like to have a nice pack of nasty mutts hanging out in their junkyard, keeps other folks out. I have killed 3-4 other dogs out there that went after my dog our parents dogs, dad had to kill 5 that were killing the neighbors livestock, not eating, jsut running down and killing.

5/2/2007 5:07:44 PM

This thread is full of stupid.

Who the fuck shoots anything at a dog in their yard? Even a paintball gun is not necessary with that. Tell the owner or call animal control, don't shoot at it like a pussy.

5/2/2007 5:22:25 PM

some people do shoot at stray animals from time to time. It tends to be a normal occurrence out in the country.

5/2/2007 5:28:20 PM

Who the fuck calls animal control. Don't be a pussy. Handle it yourself.

5/2/2007 6:01:57 PM

Quote :

"Then you take all of those people who decide to use this ammo on a pesky dog, someone breaking into their car, or the neighbors who won't turn their music down and figure that they're not breaking any law because "Hey, it's not like it'll kill them.""

I disagree with that argument. I rarely believe in legislation on the basis that the common man just can't understand the implications. By that rationalization we should ban pretty much anything that can be used as a weapon.

If pretty much everyone that has replied to this thread is smart enough to understand that less lethal ammo can kill a person then I think the rest of the nation can handle it. Give your fellow man more credit than that. It's not like TWW is the MENSA society or something.

5/2/2007 6:10:23 PM

You're forgetting that a HUGE majority of the American populace is composed of absolute morons.

5/2/2007 7:11:02 PM

prolly because they're not protected by the gun lobby like real shells are.

5/2/2007 7:34:32 PM

Why not just use salt or dimes?

5/2/2007 9:38:27 PM

Still lethal. Anything traveling @ 1200 FPS + can be lethal

[Edited on May 2, 2007 at 9:41 PM. Reason : gyhl]

5/2/2007 9:39:41 PM

They're outlawing paintball guns?

5/2/2007 9:51:12 PM

^^Only if shoot them in the head point blank.

Dimes don't have the aerodynamics to really penetrate.

[Edited on May 2, 2007 at 9:55 PM. Reason : ]

5/2/2007 9:54:36 PM

pennys would be cheaper!!

5/2/2007 10:00:41 PM

i like my less than lethal concoction:

reloads with rock salt

5/2/2007 11:22:41 PM

Skack, everyone in this thread DIDN'T know that the Less Lethal rounds could kill you. That's kinda why this thread is here in the first place (looks like at least 4 people who didn't know it). Plus long arms /= handguns. IMO, the average handgun owner knows a bit more about the gun, the law, and the consequences. On the other hand, pretty much every farmer, country-resident, and a ton of homeowners have a shotgun. How many times have you heard about hunters shooting another hunter because they saw movement? Even when the victim was wearing orange? Yeah, there's a LOT of intelligent gun owners and perhaps even most shot gun owners. However, it's my opinion that there's a lot more idiots with no education that own a shot gun and have never even given the first thought as to it's capabilities. After all, you can (could) buy a shotgun at Wal-mart with nothing more than your driver's license. Add in that "less-lethal" is similar to "lethal-less" and many people will mistake that for meaning "won't kill". Kinda like how people think Stainless = will not rust. IMO, firearms are lethal and need to remain that way. Adding anything in to make a firearm "less lethal" just seems like a bad idea. I think it will lead to more accidents (there's already idiots that own guns now even though we, as gun owners/enthusiasts, don't want to admit it who are more than willing to show off, scare off, or do something else stupid that results in an "accident") and I also fear that the anti's may latch onto it as well. They already do it with cops when there's riots and things (I've heard "why didn't you use non-lethal ammo" come from the mouth of some on screen idiot several times). I'd really hate to see a bill introduced trying to outlaw ammunition (like the old Black Talons or whatever and even JHP being "evil-ized") and substituting LL stuff. Anyway, like I said, it's just my opinion. I may be completely wrong and hope that I am. Regardless, it's not something I want to see.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 12:17 AM. Reason : oops.]

5/3/2007 12:15:26 AM

I have only had reason to use any less than lethal/non leathal/non projectile amunition 1-2 times, each of those with oc dust rounds in a 12 guage to break up our dog and the attacking dog so that a followup shot with buckshot could put down the GD dog that came into our yard, no tags, and went after our dogs.
On the other hand, as i have worked with 37 and 40mm versions of the so called 'non lethal' items, and seen the vast contrast between the rubbers used here and by other countries, I have had to learn a little about this crap. US military/police use rubber bullets/flats/slugs/buckshot is slightly soft, it gives if you squeeze it. The standard spec sold overseas by the same company i was working with, the spec israel and some forighn militaries demand, feels like ceramic ball bearings. You cannot push a thumbnail into it enough to leave a mark. US rubber buck, at range, is non lethal EXCLUDING face hits, as anything can be leathal with a face hit, ESP eye hits. Even rocksalt can kill iin the face, esp at closer ranges.

All in all, some of the specialty ammo has its use, the pepper rounds esp, while other rounds exists just for fun, aka the flamethrower and bird bomb rounds, they have no 'real' purpose outside of entertainment. However, acess to such rounds is jsut that, acess. Anybody can get them, regardless of state or fedral laws, its like a sawed off shotgun/rifle/ect that falls under batf control as a regualted weapon, or a pager holster or the liek that is a any other weapon tax stamp item, they are things that are out there and easy to get, regulating them jsut makes it hard to own one legally, so why regulate?

5/3/2007 3:44:35 AM

Quote :

"Who the fuck shoots anything at a dog in their yard? "

we shoot feral dogs all the time back home, but we shoot to kill them. I'll be damned if I'm going to run them off when I see them just so they can go chase and attack our calves again a few days later.

5/3/2007 8:36:55 AM

Remember that girl that got hit in the eye by a rubber bullet? Yeah...ask her how non-lethal those things are.

5/3/2007 9:07:14 AM

^ cant shes dead

5/3/2007 9:30:43 AM

^ thanks mr obvious

that was the point

5/3/2007 9:41:17 AM

I've had to deal with feral dogs and coyotes plenty of times



they die just like any other animal when you shoot them

5/3/2007 10:41:24 AM

Quote :

"or you could just throw a rock or two like a normal person"

I agree

Quote :

"Lots of people use shotguns for home defense and, given the choice, I think many people would choose less lethal shells if given the opportunity. "

Umm some people might but if someone tries to break into my house while Im home I will kill them no questions asked.

Quote :

"In Virginia, law enforcement officers in certain situations are allowed to do what's often referred to as skip shooting."

holy crap are you for real???? cuz I know officers here I damn sure wouldn't trust tryin to pull off a shot like that. They have a hard enough time hitting bowling pins in the obstacle course let alone trying to pull off a shot like that.

Quote :

"Who the fuck shoots anything at a dog in their yard?"

yea seriously. dont get caught. Im pretty sure its a felony.

5/4/2007 3:20:01 AM