I was wondering if people make outlines for their's and how effective are they?

4/29/2007 10:29:56 PM

For the love of Ambrose, write outlines. It makes your paper 10x's better, and it's easier in the long run.

"If you fail to plan, you're planning to fail."

4/29/2007 10:37:20 PM

present

I have an outline for this 10-pager: it just helps organize my thoughts better than diving in unassisted.

4/29/2007 10:42:19 PM

sigh present...

12-15 page paper for my grad class (nearly done!) due tues

results/discussion/finishing intro and methods for my honors project

words

YES outlines

[Edited on April 29, 2007 at 10:58 PM. Reason : also]

4/29/2007 10:58:45 PM

Already finished my 14 page history paper and my 30 page finance paper. Yay for anti-procrastinators.

P.S. Never used and outline, psssh.

4/29/2007 11:02:38 PM

when i was in 1st grade everyone thought it was funny to say "president" instead of "present" during roll call.

4/29/2007 11:06:59 PM

I am writing a semi outline, but I usually don't use them.

4/29/2007 11:31:30 PM

Why wouldn't you?

They only take like an hour, and save you multiple hours and make your paper substantially better.

4/29/2007 11:34:52 PM

How do you guys manage to write 10+ papers on anything? Is there actually that much to talk about or is the majority of it bs and all the other standard tricks for artificially increasing the length of a paper?

In all my life I've never had to write anything longer than five pages. Which is good for me, because I'm terrible at bs-ing.

4/29/2007 11:40:56 PM

thesis?

4/29/2007 11:43:15 PM

Quote :

"How do you guys manage to write 10+ papers on anything? Is there actually that much to talk about or is the majority of it bs and all the other standard tricks for artificially increasing the length of a paper?"

are you kidding?

oh wait...CSC major

yeahhh - the hard part is keeping it TO ten pages or more...and no it's not bs

4/29/2007 11:43:35 PM

Writing long papers isn't that hard, provided you have something to say. Generally, if you've done a good job of collecting material, you will have plenty to say. For me, it helps that I'm wordy in general.

Of course, I say this knowing that the longest paper I've ever written was 35 or so pages for my management capstone course, and about 10 pages of that were graphs.

4/29/2007 11:49:34 PM

Quote :

"In all my life I've never had to write anything longer than five pages."

hopefully this is talking single spaced

4/29/2007 11:51:03 PM

WOW...I did not know there are people that do not write multiple 10+ page research papers in college.

The one that i am writing at the moment has to do with Katsushika Oi [daughter of Katsushika Hokusai] and the suppression of women in life and in the arts during the Edo Period. I will have trouble keeping it under 10 pages.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 12:20 AM. Reason : ...]

4/30/2007 12:14:21 AM

Quote :

"oh wait...CSC major"

To be fair I was in MSE originally. I've done multiple-page lab reports, but much of that space is taken up by charts/graphs, as well as the bibliography section and other standard crap.

I guess my definition of a "page" is different than most people's. I don't think about how many pages I've physically had to use, I think about how much I've actually written, compressed into 12-font single-space, without any extra spacing or formatting.

4/30/2007 12:23:05 AM

got a ten pager in spanish i gotta do.

i decided to go with an outline this time around and it turned into a really lengthy one of about 6 pages. now i just gotta translate it and turn it into a paper.

4/30/2007 1:21:07 AM

I haven't written an outline in the past 10 years

4/30/2007 1:32:54 AM

I never really write an outline. My key to writing is to start two days ahead and give myself time to correct a rough draft.

Good writing takes good editing. I can usually tell if a paper is bullshit or not before I turn it in. So, I don't normally get surprised when they give me the grades.

4/30/2007 1:37:35 AM

working on a min, 5 pager... 3 year strategic plan for public fire education/fire prevention plan... shouldn't be that bad... due at midnight.... and yeah on this one i'm using an outline...

it depends on if I use an outline, if it's a paper that's mostly opinion or whatnot then no I don't use one. If the requirements have a list of items that are required to be in the paper then I do use an outline, makes it easier.

4/30/2007 8:19:50 AM

signed 8-10 pager due tomorrow, started on it last night after work.....

4/30/2007 9:16:43 AM

barely if ever used an outline. Always slowed me down.

4/30/2007 9:16:43 AM

Quote :

"To be fair I was in MSE originally. I've done multiple-page lab reports, but much of that space is taken up by charts/graphs, as well as the bibliography section and other standard crap. I guess my definition of a "page" is different than most people's. I don't think about how many pages I've physically had to use, I think about how much I've actually written, compressed into 12-font single-space, without any extra spacing or formatting."

Do you guys have to do a senior design thing? Our paper for that ended up being 91 pages.

10 pages is basically nothing once you have enough information about whatever topic

4/30/2007 9:46:07 AM

I generally will outline a paper in my head while driving or something and generally don't take the time to actually write the outline out.

I agree with umbrellaman, it's not a 35 page paper if 10 pages are full of graphs and its double spaced etc. Hell I've had some 80 page reports but if you were to take out the appendices(sp?) and pictures etc it'd only be 10-15.

4/30/2007 9:47:32 AM

are those take home papers?

4/30/2007 12:13:22 PM

I have 72 hours to write 5 papers.

way to go me for being a dumbass!

4/30/2007 12:24:09 PM

Outlines, as much of a pain in the ass to do sometimes, will more than pay for themselves. Even on a short 3-5 pager, I'll at least jot down the main topics and a few subheads to work off of.

I had a really half-assed outline when I wrote me thesis that ended up biting me in the ass. Never again. I'm finishing up a book right now that started with a rough outline, then expanded things as found more info. Best decision I ever made.

And for god's sake, you're got to edit. The first or second draft of anything always sucks, but at it at least gives you something to polish. If you can find a few folks to read and comment on your stuff, you're also miles ahead.

If you end up having to use a fair amount of references, get yourself a copy of EndNote. You can grab your references straight from the library's database without having to manually type it in, and if you tag things properly, it will automatically create both the bibliography and in-text references while your write. That one stupid program would have save literally days of work on the thesis by keeping track of everything and doing the formatting. IMO, this kind of stuff should be taught as a mandatory class for any writing-intensive major, and ANY master's program. I'm going back a re-taking some of the sessions they give at the library about bibliographic software before I dive back into school this fall.

So yeah, do the outline

4/30/2007 1:24:02 PM

gahhhhhhhhhhhhh paper...

5/2/2007 1:53:29 AM

Me too!

Quote :

"If some of you are having trouble getting to the outline point, try a process called clustering: 1. Write down your topic in the middle of a blank piece of paper and circle it. 2. In a ring around the topic circle, write down what you see as the main parts of the topic. Circle each one, and draw a line from it to the topic. 3. Think of more ideas, examples, facts, or other details relating to each main part. Write each of these near the appropriate part, circle each one, and draw a line from it to the part. 4. Repeat this process with each new circle until you can't think of any more details. Some trails may dead-end, but you will still have various trains of thought to follow and many useful connections among ideas."

The Everyday Writer by Andrea Lunsford and Robert Conners

Don't forget the common patterns for paragraph development:

Quote :

"Narration, description, process, example, definition, analysis and classification, comparison and contrast, analogy, cause-and-effect analysis."

Simon & Schuster Handbook for Writers by Lynn Quitman Troyka

And you can use an essay map to make sure you have a good framework:

Good opening paragraph and thesis statement with points one, two, and three. DO NOT make obvious statements that refer to what the essay is about or will accomplish, apologize, or use hackneyed expressions.

In the first paragraph, begin to develop point one using one or more of the methods listed above.

Develop point two.

Develop point three

And conclude. And now your essay has an introduction, a body, and a conclusion. In the conclusion, DO NOT introduce new facts or ideas, do not simply reword your introduction, announce what you have done, make absolute claims, or apologize.

Simon & Schuster Handbook for Writers by Lynn Quitman Troyka (for introductory and concluding paragraphs info)

5/2/2007 2:23:49 AM

yeah those suggestions work great if you're trying to pass the seventh grade writing test

5/2/2007 6:20:51 AM

Quote :

"Do you guys have to do a senior design thing? Our paper for that ended up being 91 pages."

I hated our senior design project so much that I try not to remember anything about it.

5/2/2007 7:02:04 AM

question from punchmonk - any strategies for paring down a paper that has gone way over the #pages requirement?

[Edited on May 2, 2007 at 2:25 PM. Reason : . ]

5/2/2007 2:13:08 PM

i get back to writing my masters project proposal as soon as finals are over.

outlines are a MUST. it makes sure you cover all the bases, because once you start writing, you tend to lose track of things.

and a good advisor who guts your work every time you hand it to her also helps.

5/2/2007 5:07:28 PM

^^ bump for qntmfred's question to be answered.

5/2/2007 6:29:08 PM

Quote :

"yeah those suggestions work great if you're trying to pass the seventh grade writing test"

Ernie

Your post shows how much you know. Most of it was from a textbook that is routinely used at NC State. And could you tell me which part of my post is incorrect rather than just being shitty?

5/2/2007 11:16:32 PM

had one due on monday. ended up being 23 pages, holla. (ok ok... 15 pages of graphs, charts, and maps, and only 8 of writing. but seriously, the graphs and stuff took longer to make because of the huge amounts of stuff i had to include!!!!)

5/3/2007 1:13:55 AM

use refworks from the library, you can export references and it will do your in text citations/footnotes in the style you want, and it will generate your references page. it makes keeping track of and organizing references so much easier.

5/3/2007 8:36:10 AM

I'm waiting for either refworks or endnote to play pretty with something other than MSword or openoffice. I do damn near all of my drafts on Google docs now, and I'd love to be able to toss in the references as I go a bit easier.

Refworks and Endnote are the absolute shit though. Well worth the hour it takes to learn how to use if you do any academic writing at all.

5/3/2007 9:58:06 AM

i usually make a outline, as means to procrastinate actually starting to write...

5/3/2007 2:03:02 PM

how about a "YAY! I'm done with papers for the semester!" roll call..

5/3/2007 5:10:30 PM

$*%*(#@*%(#@@ results tables take forever...

5/4/2007 12:58:45 AM

Real men don't write outlines.

5/4/2007 1:30:33 AM

DONE

5/4/2007 3:32:08 PM

I always took my notes on index cards.

After I was done writing my outline, I'd organize all my index cards on the floor according to each main idea and sub-topics of my paper.

Then as I was writing I'd have all the appropriate ideas/notes/quotes right in front of me for each paragraph I'd want to write.


Seriously everyone, get your stuff organized. It's 10x's easier and results in a product that's 10x's better.

5/4/2007 3:38:00 PM

5/4/2007 4:03:48 PM

Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!

5/4/2007 8:33:49 PM