Well, I've done a lot of research already, but there's so much to learn about photography.

Anyhow, I'm looking to invest about $1800 in a new camera setup. That includes body, lens (one, maybe two), lighting equipment and some misc accessories. This will be used at my work place for taking close-up product shots in a studio setting with proper lighting and possibly pictures of product usage in indoor and outdoor settings as well. Color and quality is the key thing. I've played around with a few consumer end point and shoots but I don't like them for what I need. The pictures would then be used on printed material such as brochures, ads and possibly small posters.

I've also played around on my friends Canon 20D and another friends Panasonic Lumix fz50. I like the feel of both of them, but I definately prefer the 20D. I've mainly looked the Canon 30D and the new Rebel XTi and trying to compare their costs and benefits. The 30D is about 1200 for the body while the XTi is about 800. The 30D has 8.2mp with the XTi is 10mp. They both seem to use the same CMOS image sensor (22x15mm), use SLR, but the XTi has the CMOS self-cleaning system. 30D also has 5fps capture, while XTi is only 3fps. Most of the pictures will be still anyhow so I don't think that'll warrant the extra cost. I'm leaning towards the XTi for the price, mp, and similar image quality, but what kind of features are offered on the 30D that isn't on the XTi?

If I get the Rebel XTi, I then could afford better optics or possibly two for the price (one for close up, another for low-light/outdoor use). What other camera's should I look at in that price range (heard good things about Nikon)? Differences in CCD sensors compared to the CMOS. Any other advice?

2/2/2007 9:20:49 PM

I've heard some pretty good things about Nikon. I think the D80 is their latest SLR

[Edited on February 2, 2007 at 9:53 PM. Reason : ]

2/2/2007 9:51:32 PM

i am by no means a photography or digital camera expert, but it seems to me that you can't really compare a canon 20D and a panasonic lumix fz50...one is a DSLR and the other is a prosumer (i have the lumix fz30)

so, the question is - are you looking for a DSLR or a prosumer camera? what do you want to do with it? i was in this same place 10 months ago when i decided to buy a camera, and i personally chose the lumix because

1.) 12x optical zoom is more than enough for simple photography and pretty good for everything else
2.) the manual settings allow me to practice "real" photography before i invest a whole lot
3.) there are relatively cheap add-on lenses for telephoto and wide angle
4.) the OIS on the lumix is second only to canon IS (in my experience)
5.) 640x480 30fps video
6.) RAW format capability
7.) resulting pictures can be printed out at 11x14 with perfect clarity

among other reasons...i felt that it was a really good place to start...one day i'll probably want a DSLR setup, but for less than half the price i can DO everything a DSLR can function-wise (obviously the quality isn't comparable), and i can do a lot of things a DSLR can't without hauling a bag full of stuff

always, a good place to start would be http://www.dpreview.com/

if you'd like me to send you some sample pics from my camera, i'd be more than happy to do so

[Edited on February 2, 2007 at 10:15 PM. Reason : sample pics]

2/2/2007 10:10:06 PM

^yeah, thats why I preferred the 20D and I searched and read your thread too for some good info from there, but its 10 months old. The XTi looks like a good contender for today's budget professional camera. Video capture is not needed. Also I can't find info about the fz50 if its just a CCD or 3CCD? I'm guessing CCD, but not sure. Everything I need to do is stated in OP.

2/2/2007 10:16:34 PM

^ d'oh...i completely read over what you were going to use it for...it's been a long day

in all honesty, outdoor shots with my lumix are absolutely amazing...i mean, any camera is going to do better taking outdoor shots than, say, indoor with a regular flash...as for it with studio lighting, the closest thing i've done is one of those lighting cubes (Ronny told me the right term, but i forget)...the shots came out great

if you've really got $1800 to spend, go DSLR...money is the single biggest reason i didn't, but i don't regret it or anything

here's the fz30 review, if you didn't already have it: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicfz50/

2/2/2007 10:21:47 PM

I'd suggest a Nikon D80 w/ SB800 flash, the 18-70 lens, and either the Nikon 60mm macro or Sigma 50 or 105mm macro lens for the closeup work. Just this will put you in the $1900 range and will give you a very good setup for most work. Do you already have studio lighting? If not then you'll be spending at least $700 for a basic 3 light setup with accessories. Alien Bee is a great company for basic, lower power setup. Add in backdrops, extra batteries and memory cards and you easily are in the $3000-3500 range for the setup, and really not much you should be able to skimp on.

I've used a D70 with up to 4 studio strobes (1200w/s models) for product work, from house interiors, jewelry, candles, and restaurant memorabilia for the past couple of years and never had a complaint.


The reason I suggest Nikon over canon is the raw file ability (yes canon has it, but the programs to get the best quality aren't as easy to use) adn the in/on-camera adjustability to get the color RIGHT, which is critical for studio work due to the incandescent modelling light and the near daylight balanced strobe. Still, a true grey card should be used to get a baseline for what your lights are.

[Edited on February 2, 2007 at 10:41 PM. Reason : ]

2/2/2007 10:38:38 PM

any good photography books that I should read? Did some HS photography classes in HS, but that's pretty much it. A bit rusty on my lingo...

I glanced at the D80 and looks pretty nice, comparable to the new XTi. For right now, I think we'll just get one lenses for close-up shots then in the future get new lenses for different applications. Most likely invest in the multipack battery adapter with the vertical positioned button, a high-speed SD (CF for canon) medium, and a simple light setup with a cheap backdrop.

The XTi is 700ish, D80 is 900ish, and 30D is 1200ish. Lenses in the range of 200-500 depending on what I really need, then added accessories to the camera are about 300 + lighting (nothing fancy yet) of say about 300. So if went with the XTi, its roughly around the 1600 (+/- 100) mark for a decent beginning setup. This is what my friend with the 20D told me. I'll probably have a bigger budget when another photo shot comes along so I'll add more equipment later on.

2/2/2007 11:26:59 PM

You could start with Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson.

I would go with the D80 setup, but I'm biased. Go hold an XTi and then a D80 and you might feel the same way.

So this will mostly be for macro photography, of what kind of subjects?

2/2/2007 11:53:07 PM

medical devices about the size of a PC PSU, nothing bigger. I'm probably gonna head to peace cameras and look at what they have tomorrow.

2/3/2007 12:24:37 AM

peace cameras didn't have a D80 or 30D in stock, but I got to mess around with XTi and I like it.
This is what I took a snap shot of when I was there. It has nice and accurate color capture. Pretty much with two lenses, lighting equipment, 4GB CF card, multi-battery adapter with extra battery's will run about 1800-1900, so still in my budget.

2/4/2007 7:11:13 PM

jeff are you buying it or is your company paying for it? and dont talk shit about my panasonic haha i love it

2/5/2007 9:18:58 PM

if you like the plastic rebel, you'll love any of the Nikon's or the better Canon's.


Right now, assuming you won't be photographing larger objects where you need a studio-type space, look into buying/building a light tent and use fairly bright lights outside the box to get even light inside. This is a very inexpensive option compared to full studio strobes and works great, in conjunction with a tripod, for photographing smallish objects that need a clean background.

[Edited on February 5, 2007 at 10:04 PM. Reason : ]

2/5/2007 9:59:28 PM

I'm actually going to build a lightbox/tent and get 3 halogen 500w shop lamps and put them around the subject. This will be on the company tab. Since I'm going to be saving some extra money on making my own light setup (20 bucks per lamp + materials for the tent) I have about 300 bucks extra to spend on.

I really want to play around with the 30D and maybe just get that, but there's some trade-offs like 10mp vs 8mp, manual adjustment settings on the 30D vs on screen settings of the XTi, 5fps vs 3fps. My company will pay for it and I get to play with it. Pretty much It'll just be me using the camera.

2/5/2007 10:37:44 PM

unless you are shooting sports, fps doesn't matter one bit. Also, mp doesn't really matter up at this quality level.

2/6/2007 9:22:38 AM

^I was thinking of taking it and using it for personal reasons when I go to the track and autocross. :p

2/6/2007 10:54:57 AM

try this site triangleelectronics.ecxshops.com

2/6/2007 4:06:59 PM

my buddy has the D80 and its an amazing camera

2/6/2007 4:17:57 PM

Well, finally got the Canon XTi camera setup. Turned out to be about $1450 for the camera, 2 lens, and a bunch of accessories. I've been playing around with it the whole weekend and damn, its fun. I got two photo shoots to do this week so I'll have learn a shit load in a few days. Got the digital field guide for the rebel xt book and there's a lot of nice info in it.

3/12/2007 12:48:59 PM

Took some pictures. These are the best ones, but I'm still learning a lot.

3/13/2007 11:11:03 AM

that last shot has no need to be at 1600 iso. all that is going to do is increase noise. First one could use a bump in the lower and mid-tones with a curve adjustment for a little less contrast and more detail in the bike. otherwise, really nice shots.

3/13/2007 12:41:02 PM

yeah, now that I think about it, more than half of my shots on centennial turned out bright because I forgot I was set to a slow shutter rate. So it over exposed and lost a bit of detail.

3/13/2007 4:08:03 PM

It looks like there's a tiny amount of pin cushioning in that last one to me.

3/13/2007 4:54:28 PM

Adjust the white balance when working indoors. It will get rid of the "yellow" effect on the pic of the bullets and the guy with the middle finger. That's one of the big benefits of digital...No need to change film or apply a filter to get true color tone.

3/13/2007 5:00:12 PM

Oh yeah, what lenses did you end up with? Sorry for the double post...TWW doesn't allow editing right now.

3/13/2007 5:02:53 PM

all but one exif shows 60mm and f2.8, so I'd guess the 60mm f2.8 macro.

3/13/2007 6:05:48 PM

yeah, got the efs 60mm f/2.8 macro lens and the standard wide angled 18-55mm lens that came with it. I might get a telescopic lens in the near future to do some portrait and far away shots.

I also figured out about changing the white tone yesterday on the camera. Such a big difference I might say. Here's an example.

White fluorescent light setting (incorrect):


Shade light setting (correct):

3/13/2007 9:56:47 PM

ill never forget to check the iso again - perfectly composed shot of the barcelona pavilion, and i completely forgot to change it so its way too grainy

3/13/2007 11:01:59 PM

apparently, you can view the white balance histogram on the camera right after you take the pic, haven't figured that yet, but I haven't read the manual yet. I find it a lot more fun when you just play around with it first then read.

3/13/2007 11:11:26 PM

A d80 is not high end pro, technically. It is high end amateur.

3/14/2007 1:19:41 AM

Outdoor in good lighting, set the ISO as low as it will go.

D200 is high end pro from Nikon.

I shoot with a Sony H2 myself. Same reason as quagmire why I didn't by a DSLR...too much money.

3/14/2007 6:16:29 AM

Quote :

"D200 is high end pro from Nikon"

D200 is a pro-sumer camera. The D2 series are the pro models for Nikon. Canon's pro models are the 1d and 1ds models. everything else currently produced is consumer or pro-sumer.

3/14/2007 7:22:13 AM

^^i have an H5, i like it but i have a hard time with manual focus length (as with any P&S or DSLR-like), if i get much more frustrated i might make the jump to DSLR so i can have better control.

3/14/2007 5:58:23 PM

Some more pics







bike pics. Most of these didn't come out right because of the low light.

3/15/2007 11:26:43 PM

^^ I don't do a lot of macro or close up stuff so I rarely use the manual focus. I do agree it's somewhat difficult to use. Make sure you have peaking set on high, that helps outline what's in focus when doing so manually.

If you want a good read on the H series by a professional photographer check this out - http://www.aakatz.com/whitepaper/

3/16/2007 8:55:41 AM

low light requires a much slower shutter speed and f-stop adjustments, you'll probably need a tripod to take really clear good ones.

3/16/2007 9:52:31 AM

a tripod isn't going to do crap if the subject is moving. Those shots were at 1/60th sec f2.8 1600 iso, nothing you can do except take the pictures 30 minutes earlier when the sun was up.

3/16/2007 11:15:18 AM

yeah, we didn't go out stunting till 7pm... we'll try tomorrow if the weather is good.

3/16/2007 3:24:27 PM

we're getting one of these...

i don't think it counts though

3/16/2007 3:41:42 PM

I would just like to say that the Canon Eos is a fucking wonderful camera line although expensive

3/16/2007 3:43:08 PM

So I was playing around with low light with this candle last night. This is probably the best shot, but I'm still getting a ton of grain in the black. I've pretty much tried a lot of combinations and took over 100 shots of the candle alone. What settings would be the best for taking a low light camera shot? I'm looking for the background to be totally black, or would that be an almost impossible task?

3/18/2007 1:08:17 AM

yea, that's pretty nice, good shot

3/18/2007 2:02:17 AM

larger aperture (lower f-number) and use spot metering instead of pattern, oh and lower your ISO, it's no wonder you're getting noise shooting at ISO 1600 in a low light setting...

try f/3.5, ISO 100, spot metered and adjust the focal length and the shutter speed until you get the desired results

[Edited on March 18, 2007 at 6:29 PM. Reason : .]

3/18/2007 6:24:42 PM

enter exhibit A:

http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=candle800af6.jpg

best i can do w/ my H5 (took ~20 shots or so)... my candle isn't as interesting, prolly would help if i let the candle burn longer... also used a macro lens

[Edited on March 18, 2007 at 7:02 PM. Reason : .]

3/18/2007 6:51:41 PM

I'll try again tonight

3/19/2007 7:50:58 AM

Well after getting familiar with the XTi and this past weekend at an AMA motorcycle races. I'm thinking of actually getting into the professional photography world. I met a lot of pro's there and they all complimented on my photos and said "I had the nack for it". A few magazine editors that were there also said the pictures were of "magazine print quality" so that's just awesome to hear comments like that.

My photography blog:
http://jbazpics.blogspot.com/

My motorcycle blog:
http://jbazbikes.blogspot.com


So I'm looking at getting an EOS 5D (for myself, not for my company like the XTi), but the only problem is that it only shoots 3fps. I'm looking at anything faster than that, but with 10mp+ and I'm not looking to spend a ton. Haven't really set a budget for my camera setup, but I don't want to spend 6,000 on just the body either. Around 3k for just the body is reasonable to me for what I'm looking at doing now.

I plan on taking motor sports photography so speed and fps is important to me cause the 3fps of the XTi was a bit slow when bikes are going 180+mph. I'm open to Nikon camera's, but I'm really a canon guy.

5/1/2007 12:50:04 PM

you don't want the 5d for fast action. Look at a used 1D mII N. It is THE sports/action camera. (and this is coming from a Nikon guy) Prices should be coming down and a lot more on the market because the mark 3 was just announced.

5/1/2007 1:27:57 PM

I think it's interesting that the Canon 1D mkIII has a lower resolution than the mkII. At least the signal to noise ration has been improved.

Nevermind... I was thinking of the 1Ds and not the 1D

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 1:57 PM. Reason : dumbassery]

5/1/2007 1:56:23 PM

my dad picked up a D80 from costco last week for $1200 w/ bag, 2 lenses battery and cables. very good deal

5/1/2007 8:05:15 PM

i just got a Canon 1D Mark II N and it is the shit.

5/1/2007 9:18:10 PM

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5/1/2007 10:04:24 PM