OK im trying to decide which PHP framework to start to learn/use and after some research ive boiled it down to these:

http://www.symfony-project.com/
http://zoopframework.com/
http://www.cakephp.org/

anyone recommend/used one of these? Why?

thanks in advance for saving me time

1/3/2007 4:12:29 PM

what are you trying to do?

if you're using a framework, chances are you're trying to build something scalable. if you're trying to build something scalable, chances are you don't want to use PHP. Try J2EE or .NET.

if you want something up quickly, and you're just getting onto the scene, learn you some Ruby on Rails.

1/5/2007 12:11:27 AM

^bull. PHP is incredibly scalable. The only reason to move to .NET or J2EE is if you want to scale outside of a web application. If it's web-only, PHP will be faster, have less overhead and be a lot cheaper to implement.

1/5/2007 12:24:36 AM

personally i'd use symfony, looking at it for use in a php site i'm working on right now

1/5/2007 12:27:01 AM

^^^yea that scalable comment is not true. With database driven websites the scalability wont have anything to do with php vs j2ee. I will never use .NET by choice.

I am very good with PHP, so dont feel like learning another lang. that is similar. I tried ruby on rails for a bit and did not like it.

I chose Cake and have been working with it extensively the past 2 days. I am very impressed, and am going to stick with it.

ps - yahoo uses PHP all over the place. So its proven to be scalable.

[Edited on January 5, 2007 at 5:17 PM. Reason : good at php, but not english]

1/5/2007 5:17:19 PM

^^^PHP is an interpreted language, while Java and C# are executed by JIT compilation. This means that for every pageview you're having to lex the source while Java and C# will have this cached.

Faster? no.

Less overhead? more, in fact.

Cheaper to implement? yes, in terms of developer time * salary.

1/15/2007 4:21:58 PM

You need to do some research into Zend. Zend Optimized binary php runs significantly faster than any java engine.

Faster? Yes, you don't have a clue what you are talking about, as is obvious by the fact you don't know almost all commercial PHP runs the Zend suite.

Less Overhead? HAHAHAHaHA, have you ever SEEN the hardware requirements for production JRE's? You need to look at some actual numbers.

1/15/2007 5:04:47 PM

I seriously doubt the claim that binary php is "faster than any Java engine", but I'll buy "as fast as".

1/15/2007 5:42:48 PM

yes, because if Java is known for one thing, it's speed

1/15/2007 5:49:20 PM

is it me or is philihp sliding a bit?

1/16/2007 8:35:32 AM

^^^Unless a lot has changed in the JRE world in the last two years, the month or so I did speed trials of 6 or 7 JVM environments against PHP with and without Zend, php was never SLOWER than any Java implementation, even without binary runtimes.

Worst case PHP was within 2-3% of the runtime efficiency of any JVM I could test in 2004, and with Zend it was generally 100-300% faster. Granted my testing was very specific to the architecture I was building and it's needs, but it's a pretty standard web application in terms of use patterns.

I mean, when BIG FUCKING SITES start migrating from Java to PHP, you tend to take notice and listen. When Yahoo! moves nearly all their new development to PHP, when Friendster completely scrapped their Java codebase to start from scratch with PHP for the SOLE reason of better scalability, you tend to take notice.

PHP inherently scales better than Java. Well written, well organized, well optimized PHP scales MUCH better than Java.

1/16/2007 10:20:00 AM

This is false. I work with Java and PHP, and I just can't agree with you here. Is this statement your opinion? Im just askin. I just think it boils down to what you are more comfortable working with. Basically everyone knows that Java scales better than PHP. More people know Java. Java provides better separation of layers. PHP is encoded script.

Quote :

"PHP inherently scales better than Java. Well written, well organized, well optimized PHP scales MUCH better than Java."

In reference to this statement.


[Edited on January 17, 2007 at 2:01 AM. Reason : .]

1/17/2007 1:53:27 AM

Quote :

"Basically everyone knows that Java scales better than PHP"

Please find me any, and I mean ANY source that can back up this claim. Keep in mind we are talking about WEB APPLICATIONS here, not middleware. In all of my own experience, as well as the experience of several major web presences, Java can't hold a candle to PHP in terms of performance and scaleability.

Everyone who says they work with both generally hasn't ever TRIED to implement PHP in any kind of enterprise environment. It's not only relatively easy to implement, it's also pretty damn easy to scale massively. Granted, quite a bit of that ease has to do with Apache, but its easy as a result.

Quote :

"Java provides better separation of layers. PHP is encoded script. "

What? And if you want to get down to semantics, Java is encoded script as well.

Also, I would venture to say that more people know PHP than Java, but I'm sure many more people have GOOD Java practices than PHP coding practices. It's really easy to say the language sucks because most people never take it out of it's basic elements, but PHP can be incredibly powerful for someone with good theory. With PHP5, it's damn near fully OO and the memory management problems with PHP4 are looong gone. Pretty much the only thing you absolutely can't do in PHP still is late binding for overloaded operators/classes. But I can count on one hand the number of times in my entire life that I've ever even thought about using a solution like that.

1/17/2007 2:49:06 AM

Okay, well I'm going to put it like this. The two are a bad comparison simply because there are a number of different aspects of "scalability". What it all boils down to is "performance". Java beat PHP in a test,but that was using and old version of PHP (for the record). PHP has upgraded since then. Java is not good for smaller projects and PHP is, vice versa. That's why in all essence it's not a "good" comparison. Honestly, I love JSP better but that's a whole different argument.

And Noen you always ask me to show articles to back up claims?!!? like you ever do. That's why I asked you "is this your opinion?"

1/17/2007 10:09:40 PM

In this case I haven't linked to articles, because I have yet to find any that show Java as a speed winner in any comparison.

Quote :

"Java beat PHP in a test,but that was using and old version of PHP (for the record)."

Unless you were running Zend Optimized code, you were comparing apples to oranges, old version of PHP aside.

Here's a great, quick blog about why PHP destroys Java in the small app world
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/bnewport/archive/2006/06/java_versus_php.html
It sums up really well why, at the small scale (remember scalability works both ways), the overhead needed for Java is both impractical and expensive in shared hosting environments (which account for the VAST majority of hosting)

This is a GREAT article http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/10/15/php_scalability.html
and it was written three years ago.

Digg runs on PHP, scalability a breeze http://enterprise.phpmagazine.net/2006/04/digg_phps_scalability_and_perf.html

More articles explaining the inherent scalability of PHP:

http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/07/02/why-php-scales/
http://talks.php.net/show/lt2004-lamp/
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/07/01/the-j2ee-guy-still-doesnt-get-php/

Performance of PHP:
http://talks.php.net/show/hpp
http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm

Seriously. More and more of the biggest sites in the world are run on PHP and run DAMN WELL on VERY LIMITED HARDWARE. Wikipedia, Yahoo, Friendster, Flikr, Digg, Freshmeat, Automart all use google for mission critical apps.

Hell even GOOGLE uses PHP for a lot of their non-core applications.

1/18/2007 1:14:08 AM

1/18/2007 6:47:30 PM

that's quite the rebuttal

1/18/2007 10:19:38 PM

Funny thing is, most of the articles I posted link to several MORE articles.

^^?

1/19/2007 1:39:30 AM

like I said, none is "better" than the other. Certain people like certain tools and there you have it. I could summon just as many biased articles supporting Java. It's just like partisan politics comparing these two. Oh the mighty powers of google.

1/19/2007 1:55:02 AM

Quote :

"like I said, none is "better" than the other. Certain people like certain tools and there you have it. I could summon just as many biased articles supporting Java. It's just like partisan politics comparing these two. Oh the mighty powers of google."

Noen: POST ARTICLES!
Earl: NO, YOU!
Noen: Here you go.
Earl: DAMMIT! Who cares about articles, they're all slanted anyway.

1/19/2007 7:42:34 AM

i love watching Noen get riled up

1/19/2007 9:03:35 AM

Quote :

"I could summon just as many biased articles supporting Java."

Please do then. Because, while you might find many supporting Java, you won't find them showing ANY evidence that Java is more scalable or higher performance than PHP.

Hell, there's even a pretty big push to replace JSP with PHP as a frontend for Java middleware apps. PHP has pretty darn good Java integration for applications outside the web.

1/19/2007 12:06:15 PM

lol, Noen you tickle me pink!! You try so dad-gom hard my ignorant friend. I'm going to skip your first article because it's a blog just to avoid biaseness from pretentious users. Now, what I'm going to do here is use YOUR articles AGAINST YOU!!

I'm going to "exploit" how you are being a selective arguer in this case and only read what you desire to read, and fail to pay attention.

Quote :

"This is a GREAT article "

http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/10/15/php_scalability.html

This is very funny to me. Not only does this great article mention Java out performing PHP in a TEST that I mentioned earlier, but it goes on to say that the two are a bad comparrison!
And It never says that PHP is better. It sais EVERYTHING that I previously said. Hahahaha

Noen "Test....What test?"

His own GREAT article :

Quote :

"[...] Java beat PHP on most of the performance benchmarks [...]an older version of PHP was used in the test, and substantial performance improvements have been made since and are continuing to be made[...][ /quote] Moving on. This digg article just explained the capability of PHP. Never once said it was better. A piece from the article; [quote]The discussion Java Vs PHP won't finish I'm sure, but this is not the point."

http://enterprise.phpmagazine.net/2006/04/digg_phps_scalability_and_perf.html

What is the point Digg? What is the point Noen? PHP has upgraded noone is denying that. But Java has always been able to perform. Fact. This article is insisting that PHP CAN PERFORM not that it's a "better performer". Platform users that support PHP are ever so happy now that PHP CAN perform. Java can as well and is upgrading. Not to mention JE6 capabilities

One of your articles was named "Why PHP Scales"...I think that speaks for itself. Not to mention that these BLOGs you post are from biased users in corporations who just bash others. Go figure.

I'm going to stop here because if you wan't to post biased articles instead of credible sources that really fail to support your claim then this coversation is futile. I work with various platforms daily and I know the truth. Like I said, different strokes for different dad-gom folks. But then again, after a long day writing code professionaly it's rather amusing toying with you like fresh kill in the serengeti.


[Edited on January 19, 2007 at 3:16 PM. Reason : I'm impeccable. This is what I do. Fact.]

1/19/2007 2:51:40 PM

Quote :

"Hell, there's even a pretty big push to replace JSP with PHP as a frontend for Java middleware apps. PHP has pretty darn good Java integration for applications outside the web."

This is a bad idea. Don't try this at home, folks...

1/19/2007 3:12:27 PM

I like where this topic has gone, some good points. BUt just as an update to the thread - I tried symfony and cake and chose cake (cuz of the similarity to rails).

Ive been using cake for about 3 weeks now and to put it modestly - it fucking rocks.

Noen - u tried cakephp yet? I wanna try the zend framework as well but have not had a chance.

forgot to throw in my 2cents - I would argue that the 2 are so similar in perf that it comes down to DB design and good data models. Disk is always slower than well written code - especially on a large scale db driven site.

[Edited on January 25, 2007 at 6:03 PM. Reason : .]

1/25/2007 5:59:11 PM

I love working with various platforms. I feel that it helps alot to get a feel for more than one. But I know a ton of knowledge about them.

1/25/2007 9:27:03 PM

found this benchmark for PHP frameworks. Note that Zend doesnt give you as much functionality right out of the box, so keep that in mind when reading numbers

http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=238

2/8/2007 11:36:41 AM