I'll throw out a few...

Bugatti/Bentley senility indicator of ferdinand piech and VAG, late 1990s
anyone remember back in 1997-2000, VW was going nuts with high-end concepts based around the nutso W18 (3 banks of 2 Lupo 3-cyls, one bank horizontal) and the w16 turbo (2 w8's, later became the veyron engine)? Those concepts were CRAZY. The first 3 bugattis were designed by italdesign-giugiaro. The EB118 was basically the coupe version of the EB112 of 1993-4, the EB218 was the 4-door, then there was the diablo-based 18/3 Chiron, then the Bentley Hunaudieres (featuring the w16), and finally the VAG-internally designed (read: "piech-fingerpainted") 18/4 Veyron. Go look up the hunaudieres and then the veyron. No contest, the veyron was a MESS compared to the hunaudieres, and bugatti was a lame duck brand anyway. Who cares about the development of the bugatti brand? will they EVER get around to offering something that at the most common, will entertain buyers who otherwise would have had a gallardo? Probably not, and even if they did, the kids don't care enough to make that kind of car cool. The bentley brand is publicly known and inspirational, the hunaudieres was a fitting top-of-the-range car there, and it was dead and forgotten before piech started claiming those silly numbers that made the veyron's development such a white elephant for VW. the 620 hp of the concept car could have EASILY have been made by production, and it wouldn't have been such a spectacle to watch flounder. It could already be a dated car by now. What a horrible horrible mistake. Hopefully VW's project fast spinoffs like the ecoracer and gx3 will result in production counterparts that actually make money and develop the brand and result in great cars available to the public.

ok, that one was a little long, but it just kind of rolled out. that didn't take but like 5-6 mins to type... I'll be briefer with a few others....

DCX has a bunch of "modern" v8s now.... the 4.7L, the 5.7 Hemi, the 6.1 Hemi, the 5.2L and 5.9L are forgotten. The 5.7 HAD to have been underway when-, and the 4.7 was about to hit production when-, the PROWLER was running out of steam. EVERYONE thought the Howler concept was cool, DCX. I have found through teh intarnet a few people working on Prowler Hemi-swaps.


The sloppy joe I had for lunch even knew the prowler needed a v8
The Prowler, more than probably any other car on the planet, except for the top-end S-class' and 7-series' mandatory v12s, and the corvette and mustang's mandatory v8s, depended on the right drivetrain arrangement. In the case of the Prowler, that meant a v8 of some kind. It failed not because people didn't like it, but because they wanted a v8. It would have been a textbook example of "oops, I guess that was the problem," had Chrysler offered a v8 Prowler, even in minute quantities of say, 100... to the public. There would have been a media frezy. There would have been a durango-from-dakota level of profit to reengineering cost ratio. big, big mistake. Bet you're kicking yourself now that the Hemi is so easy to make money with. durrrrrrr....

Ahem... muscle cars DO sell, DCX, the public has just figured out that the mustang and F-bodies aren't 3-series....
Chrysler had a huge list of sports car concepts during it's design renaissance of the previous decade, and they were constantly flirting with the idea of a moderately priced sports car. There was the PT spyder, whose only claim to fame today is its' bakelite interior trim being available on a few 300 Hemi C's today, whose color-infused plastic panels were considered not glossy enough for production attractiveness, but would have resulted in across-the-board weight and build cost savings. There was the Venom, which was based on a stretched neon chassis but used the drivetrain that eventually showed up in the Prowler, the family v6 arranged longitudinally driving the rear wheels of a long, low coupe.... it could have been the replacement for the stealth, and hey, isn't there another long, low-slung coupe coming out today because the public wants that car, the challenger?
There was the Atlantic, which could have had the same effect on the public at large the way morgans tug the heartstrings of hardcore anglo-philes to the tune of 3 -year waiting lists....
What about the copperhead, ANOTHER stab at a venom-style vehicle, but a little ritzier, something nimbler than a vette but with the same "above mustang" cachet?
The excuse we were always given for chrysler avoiding a mass-quantity sporty car was that they were money-losers, and that we ought to look at f-body and mustang sales trends to see that that's a fair assessment. All they had to do was get out of a copperhead (and how they could have imagine it being moderately dumbed down for production), and then sit in a mustang or f-body of the same year.... no question.... it could've been done.

While we're at it... people will buy 300c convertibles, dcx. Take ASC up on their Helios concept's reinforcement designs. Who remembers the chrysler phaeton? wide-eyed american schoolboys who now have jobs. Remember the VW Phaeton? Nobody will in another 10 years, except the weird middle-aged german bankers that keep them in hermetically sealed garages....

Lutz bobbled the Cunningham c7
GM tried to screw briggs cunningham, jr. out of his right to a car named for his father. GM was going to supply v12s. cunningham sued, GM aborted the plan. And the US missed out on having another credible cottage-industry level car manufacturer other than mosler and saleen (whose s7 debuted at the same naias show, 20 feet away), but whose car didn't look like every car drawn by a 7th grader on 8.5 by 11.

4/10/2006 4:21:09 PM

Too many words.

4/10/2006 4:24:36 PM

i'll add:

m3 convertible

wtf is that bullshit?

[Edited on April 10, 2006 at 4:45 PM. Reason : shouldnt offer it in 'vert]

4/10/2006 4:44:32 PM

and with all the hybrid rage lately (OMG 50MPG!!!), vag needs to bring the diesel polos (and maybe lupos) across the pond.

4/10/2006 4:46:51 PM

^I would buy one.

Thanks, GM, for spoiling the market for diesels back in the '80's...buncha shitbags.

4/10/2006 4:49:10 PM

it looks like youre babbling about shit you'll never own

why care?

4/10/2006 4:50:18 PM

^H8R,
exotic cars are far more important as figureheads and monuments than as actual vehicles in the scheme of things. For example, how many people have a poster of a countach compared to how many people have actually bought one?

Most of my gripes are actually with cheaper vehicles, the one that really got me going today was finding a hemi prowler project online. (I'll post a link in another thread after flood control lets up)

The reason for the vag and cunningham issues being mentioned is that for a long time, I thought the c7 was the perfect looking, brand-heritage-irrelevant car, and it was the standard I held other cars against. Right now, the car serving that purpose is the similarly out-in-the-ether farboud GTS.

The bentley/bugatti issue is completely fantasy, but the bugatti is so hideous in comparison to the hunau that it really deserves to be griped about by someone, even if they can't afford either car.

Besides, who wants to accept that anything in this universe is really beyond their reach? Isn't that like counting the things you'll absolutely never be able to do before you die?

[Edited on April 10, 2006 at 5:13 PM. Reason : .]

4/10/2006 5:12:47 PM

words words words

rabble rabble rabble

durka durka durka

4/10/2006 5:14:54 PM

point taken

carry on, my man, carry on

4/10/2006 5:17:27 PM

jeebus Skack/ State, you act like text slows up teh intarnet or something.

if you take the time to get on TWW, go to the garage, care enough to click the thread, scroll down and see there's too much text, click reply to topic, and compose your quip while completely leaving out content related to the topic, then maybe you ought to print out this thread and head to your local psychatrist to convince them of your add and then give me half your adderall as a thank you.

[Edited on April 10, 2006 at 5:22 PM. Reason : .]

4/10/2006 5:20:42 PM

I thought it was a nicer way of stating that all that shit was pretty hard to read, stream of consciousness-like, and generally not very well organized. I actually did try to read through most of it but as the words were running through my head I kept feeling like some bipolar person was on a manic high spewing out his latest incantations about nothing at me and I didn't have a chance to comprehend any of it without getting him to repeat it (ie, going back and rereading to piece together all your microthoughts).

[Edited on April 10, 2006 at 7:57 PM. Reason : s]

4/10/2006 7:55:53 PM

well, looks like this thread is off to a flying start.

^fine, I did just "wing it." If I'd gone to the trouble of paring down the first post, it would've taken longer, and I was just interested in getting some gripes out. I normally would've just mouthed off to the guy I share an office with, but he's been skipping out on work lately. Also, it seemed like a good topic, despite the messy post.

4/11/2006 12:27:21 PM

yeah, the Prowler should've had a V8, and it should've at least offered a manual trans.

the Solstice shouldn't have been made fat, soft, and slow. should've stayed true to its roots.

hopefully they'll make the Dodge Razor.

killing the Z28 to build Aztecs

GM killing off all of its RWD platforms. Even old people hate FWD.

actually, building the Aztec at all was a mistake. Who styled that atrocity?

4/11/2006 12:54:40 PM

even stevie wonder wouldn't be driven around in an asstek

4/11/2006 1:00:42 PM

^^ the same person who designed the C5 corvette believe it or not

4/11/2006 2:17:05 PM

50k fast jap cars being killed in the 90s (or not imported)

2wd mazda 3

no small VAG car w/ 1.8t & quattro/ 4motion other than tt

i mean they're cool but not my style the new one looks good though.


[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 4:24 PM. Reason : .]

4/11/2006 3:59:56 PM

quattro >> 4mo

but i def agree with you... maybe quattro w/ FSI in the a3 or tt..?

4/11/2006 4:20:26 PM

Nissan 240sx:
They tried to have a car to go up against the Prelude and Integra but whimped out and put in a truck engine with no power. (At least it has some torque). The thing needs a turbo though.

We of course can't forget Jaguar.
the V12 AWD, 4WS, and jacknife doored XJ220 concept was an awesome Idea. Buyers payed to be put on the waiting list. Then Ford acquired Jaguar and equipped the XJ220 with a TTV6 (it couldn't even go 220mph doh!), RWD, regular doors, and no 4ws. Lots of potential buyers tried to back out of their waiting list agreement and Jaguar ended up sueing potential buyers. It did look neat though.

4/11/2006 4:39:02 PM

^^isn't it all just nomenclature? audi quattro typically torsen clutches w/ longitudinal layout, 4motion typically haldex clutches and part-time 4wd behavior? In which case, the tt is the exception to quattro, and the w8 4 motion being the exception to 4motion?

4/11/2006 4:42:02 PM

not really, it depends on the chassis they are found in. in the past bigger cars got the torsen system (passat, a4,a6,a8) while smaller cars got haldex (TT, r32, 4 motion jettas abroad).

during this current generation all vw's will use haldex along with the a3 & TT.

Quote :

"quattro >> 4mo"

so this is retarded since they are both the same damn thing.

4/11/2006 6:04:26 PM

you know what i meant..

non "A" platform 4mo/quattro >> "A" platform 4mo/quattro

or, in essence, torsen >> haldex

better?


[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 6:17 PM. Reason : and good luck finding a manual 4mo passat.]

4/11/2006 6:12:55 PM

Quote :

"Nissan 240sx: They tried to have a car to go up against the Prelude and Integra but whimped out and put in a truck engine with no power. (At least it has some torque). The thing needs a turbo though."

well, they had the game won, other than putting that buzzy engine with mediocre power.

4/11/2006 6:47:58 PM

it's not a truck engine

4/11/2006 6:57:23 PM

^yeah, I just like to hate on my car

4/11/2006 8:57:48 PM

^4x

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Volkswagen-Passat-W8-F-Motion-Volkswagen-Passat-W8-w-Six-Speed-Manual-Transmission_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6020QQitemZ4630267458QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

guess I must just be lucky.
and the passat had the torsen setup because it was basically a long a4, with the longitudinal engines.

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 9:37 AM. Reason : /]

4/12/2006 9:37:35 AM

they're out there.. but you're a lot more likely to find an auto..

and what do you mean by "a long a4"? the two cars are built on the same chassis.

4/12/2006 10:00:43 AM

Quote :

"Audi. The Passat's wheelbase is 106.4 inches; the Audi's 103 inches, even. The overall length of the VW is 184.1 inches, while the Audi A4 is appreciably shorter at 176.7 inches. "

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Sedans_and_Coupes/2001_VW_Passat_1_8T.S180.A3640.html

Quote :

"2001 VW Passat 1.8T 2001 VW Passat 1.8T A half-year refinement to a well-seasoned vet. by Eric Peters (2001-05-14) Write your own review of the VW Passat "Badge engineering" is the derisive term for the practice of selling the same basic car as multiple models, under different brand names, with only the badge on the fender and maybe some minor trim differences separating one model from the other. Examples include the Chevy Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire, the Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable and others like that. They're basically the same cars. Buy one, buy the other -- it doesn't make much difference, other than the price difference. Now, some other automakers take a different and altogether more appealing approach. Volkswagen and Audi, which are intertwined companies, provide an example. The VW Passat sedan, for example, is similar to the Audi A4 -- in fact, it's closely related to its Audi cousin. But it's not the same car under a different name. The Passat is built on a stretched version of the A4's platform, or underlying chassis. And though it offers the same basic drivetrain choices: turbocharged 1.8 liter four cylinder engine, 2.8 liter V-6 engine and front-drive or all-wheel-drive, the finished product is a substantially different machine, and not just in terms of how it looks. In fact, the Passat has some functional attributes that may make it the better car than the A4 -- depending on what you're after. In the first place, the VW is bigger and roomier than the Audi. The Passat's wheelbase is 106.4 inches; the Audi's 103 inches, even. The overall length of the VW is 184.1 inches, while the Audi A4 is appreciably shorter at 176.7 inches. That means the Passat can handle more people more comfortably than the A4 and it has a smoother, "big car" ride. Yet since it shares the same basic engineering and suspension underthings as the Audi, the Passat also retains the tight handling qualities one expects of a German sport sedan. Really good news Then there's the really good news: The Passat 1.8 GL's base price, at $21,750, is $3,000 less than the base price of the A4 1.8T. And still, you get the goodies: turbocharged, five-valve 1.8 liter engine with 170 hp (bumped up from 150 hp last year and in 2001 model leftovers), slick five-speed manual transaxle, standard front and side curtain airbags, traction control, ABS, air conditioning, eight-speaker audio system, power windows and locks, intermittent wipers and electric rear defroster. Tdubbers who think reading is for sissies won't mind if I leave little notes in my quotes As such, the Passat is one of the best -- if not the best -- mid-size import sedan out there. Now, the Audi A4 does offer the benefits of a more prestigious nameplate -- and is frilled a little bit more with various luxury "cues" (as the say in the business). Still -- and without impugning the virtue of the altogether excellent A4 1.8T -- the Passat comes off really well when you stack the two cars together. Ultimately, what it comes down to is whether you are more into having the extra room (at a lower price) or really want the upmarket cachet and the sporting edge that the lighter, shorter-wheelbase A4 offers as its strong suits. VW has made some slight changes to the cosmetics of the Passat for the mid-year model change, so the 2001.5 Passat is actually a distinct upgrade from the 2001 model. Beethead really ought to go look through some old car mags and see that every single one of them called the passat a "stretched a4." I remember it because someone asked me once a long time ago why a passat has longitudinal drivetrain, is it really an audi? So I went and looked it up and have since had to recite info to that effect on numerous occasions. I'm no Vdub engineer, but I know that the passat was a decontented hybrid of a4 and a6 influence. In addition to the bump in output of the standard 1.8 liter engine, the taillights have been redesigned and incorporate the currently trendy clear-type lenses that have become hip among import customizers and hot-rodders. The redesign is handsome, but some buyers may want to scuttle to dealers and snap up a 2001 Passat while they're still available -- if they prefer the look of that car to the revised one. Major options on the 2001.5 Passat include a recommended cold weather package that includes heated seats and windshield washer nozzles. It's $325 extra -- and a godsend on cold, wintry days. You can also upgrade the standard cloth interior to leather for another $1,500 -- and choose from one of two luxury groups that include (or not) a sunroof and/or upgrade wheels and tires. For those who want more power, there's the step-up V-6 engine and available "4Motion" all-wheel-drive -- but these are subjects for another review. 2001.5 Volkswagen Passat Base price range: $21,750-$31,575 Engine: turbocharged 1.8 liter four-cylinder, 170 hp; 2.8 liter V-6, 190 hp Transmission: Five-speed manual or four-speed automatic; front-wheel drive or 4Motion all-wheel drive Wheelbase: 106.4 in Length: 185.2 in Width: 68.7 in Height: 57.6 in Curb Weight: 3043 (1.8-liter model, FWD) EPA (cty/hwy): 24/31 mpg (1.8-liter w/manual trans.); 18/26 mpg (V-6 w/auto) Safety equipment: Dual front airbags, side airbags, traction control, ABS Major standard features: Turbocharged five-valve engine, traction control, air conditioning with pollen filter, power windows with "one touch" operation, eight-speaker stereo system w/tape player, intermittent wipers, electric rear defrost, four-wheel disc brakes Warranty: Two years/24,000 miles "

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 10:28 AM. Reason : so I guess that'd make it a "long" a4]

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 10:45 AM. Reason : where's waldo]

4/12/2006 10:27:31 AM

that's too many words...

but the passat is built on the a4 chassis of the previous generation

so when there were B6 audi A4s out there, the passats were B5

4/12/2006 10:30:23 AM

dude, look at the FIRST quote. and then the 2nd full paragraph of the second quote. that passat review was written in 2001, way before the current a4, which is BIGGER than the first a4. they're not the same chassis, the passat is longer.... or at least a stretched version of the same chassis.

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 10:34 AM. Reason : .]

4/12/2006 10:33:05 AM

in '01 they did a mid-generation revamp (often called the B5.5)... that may have been the reason for the differences listed above..

Quote :

"The B5 Passat was introduced to Europe in 1997, and later on to the rest of the world in 1998. In March of 2001, the B5 received what we call a "facelift," meaning it received a few cosmetic changes but the platform nonetheless remained the same. In 2001, both the original style Passat B5 and the new "facelifted" Passat B5 were sold, so this is usually differentiated in our community by referring to the new "facelifted" Passat as a B5.5 or a 3BG. Volkswagen plans to produce the B5 through the model year 2004, and should be releasing the B6 Passat sometime in 2005. Two other cars also shared the B5 platform, the Audi A4 (1997-2002) and the Audi A6 (1998-2003). "

4/12/2006 11:04:17 AM

hahah VAG WARS!!!!!!!!


i want an a3 2.0t quattro
kk thanks

4/12/2006 11:26:48 AM

they did change overall length and wheelbase between the b5 and b5.5

i found the specs somewhere, but it was all metric and i'm too lazy to convert.

4/12/2006 11:28:31 AM

^you're misinterpreting the info. the passat's wheelbase stayed the same despite the facelift. the a4 was smaller. every passat (after 1997,obviously) is longer than every a4, and I'm pretty sure even the newest a4s have a shorter wheelbase than the earliest pasats.

http://www.ralphb.net/passat.html
this guy has the earlier 2001 (~b5~) passat, wheelbase 106.4, 184.1
The link I posted above is for the 2001.5 (b5.5), wheelbase 106.4, 184.1
it didn't change. The facelift was thorough, but the dimensions didn't change between the passats


consumerguide.com even lumps the two half-generations of the passat together....
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2322/act/usedcarreviewspecs/
1998-2005 passat wheelbase=106.4,length(Sedan)=184.1, length(wagon)=183.8


http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2256/act/usedcarreviewspecs/
^2001 a4 wheelbase= 103.0 length, sedan= 178.0, length, wagon, 176.7

http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/New/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38568/Act/Specs/
2005.5 a4 wheelbase (sedan and wagon)=104.3, wheelbase convertible=104.5, length (sedan and wagon)=180.6, length convertible=180.0

so there you go...



[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 12:24 PM. Reason : forgot how old "passat" name was, a4's really only 2 gens old..]

4/12/2006 12:11:20 PM

earlier b5 (1998)
http://www.internetautoguide.com/car-specifications/09-int/1998/volkswagen/passat/index.html

Quote :

"overall length (mm): 4,610=181.5" wheelbase (mm): 2,624=103.3" "

b5.5 (2002)
http://www.internetautoguide.com/car-specifications/09-int/2002/volkswagen/passat/index.html

Quote :

"overall length (mm): 4,704 =185.1 wheelbase (mm): 2,703 =106.4" "

overall length isnt really much of a measure anyways, as the bumpers/supports may not be the same b/w the two..

but yeah, the wheelbase is 0.3" difference b/w the a4 and the passat... interesting...

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 12:38 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2006 12:35:22 PM

well, at the very least, you just showed a .3 wheelbase increase and nearly 5 inches of length. not the same chassis, not a rebranding, not a rebody.... platform-mates at the closest, same as avalon-vs-camry-vs-es300

but anyway, vw is always doing crazy sh*t like that. I was reading on http://www.evo.co.uk about how the 5.0L gallardo v19 has 88mm bore spacings and the audi v10 in the s6, which uses many similar dimensions, has 90mm bore spacings because that's what audi's manufacturing equipment is set up for. Bizarre right? I mean, the gallardo's engine was designed by audi, why didn't they just use 90mm from the beginning? 8mm worth of crank length is hardly a reason for a different engine. crazy germans

V are you really suggesting the passat has 5 additional inches of bumper space? I mean, the a4's probably got a foot of that over the length of the entire car. I think most of that space is in the trunk overhang, and I thought in the rear footwells.

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 12:52 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2006 12:39:49 PM

like i said, overall length change could just be different bumpers or fenders or whatever..

the wheelbase difference could be b/c of different control arms or rear axle.. any suspension piece really..

the fact that the chassis is different, imho, hasnt been proven or disproven.. it would be hard to say without actual chassis measurements from a repair manual (bentley) or something.

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 12:42 PM. Reason : ...]

4/12/2006 12:42:25 PM

getting back to the thread topic, here's a gripe:

the vw phaeton? are you kidding me? who is going to pay 70 large for a steel a8?
Of course it's as sturdy as a bank vault, it weighs 5000 5194 lbs! It only stole sales from the a8, only a vag customer would drift to that thing. The styling was cool though. That shape in a passat size would've been a nice replacement instead of the maxima-esque jetta-stretch vag calls a passat now. but my gf loves the commercial showing all the nifty features (umbrella pockets, tipping logo rear latch, air-con glovebox, etc. (She hates those commercials where all they do is show a helicopter shot of brand x sedan driving alone on a curvy road)

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 1:02 PM. Reason : even heavier than I thought]

4/12/2006 1:00:20 PM

i kinda like the new passat..

but i agree that the phaeton was a little bit of a stupid idea...

4/12/2006 1:07:27 PM