my friend is curious and i'm personally biased so lets discuss.

whats worse a car thats always broken but cheap to fix or a car that breaks less but costs more to fix? labor doesnt matter much cuz we can handle most anything. he's looking for a daily driver thats a capable autox/HPDE car.

yadda yadda yadda

3/27/2006 4:45:43 PM

I'd go 328. I have friends that have had BAD experience with Chevys, and I'm not much of a ford guy myself. All depends on how good a deal he can get on each one.

Costwise the Bimmer we be the most expensive in terms of labor or parts I would imagine.

[Edited on March 27, 2006 at 4:50 PM. Reason : s]

3/27/2006 4:50:04 PM

wow, talk about apple vs. orange vs. orange i think my main concern would be how long he plans to keep it. if it's going to be just a few years or less, hard to go wrong with a late model ls1 for overall performance. if it's something he plans to keep for a while and to extensively auto-x/track, i'd got for the bmw. american vehicles have gotten to the point where they're pretty damn solid mechanically. you're problems are going to come with build quality as it ages with things like power options, interior pieces, etc.

3/27/2006 4:51:42 PM

LS-1s Are alot more fun that either of the other cars you mentioned. Awesome motor in a not so well built car. The Mustang has an over all better interior quality but it just has the 4x4 seating position. The 4.6s are not as good as the Chevy mills. I dunno nuttin bout no bimmer

3/27/2006 6:43:36 PM

ahahahaha

[/thread]

3/27/2006 8:12:50 PM

Quote :

"Awesome motor in a not so well built car."

that describes my car to a t.

3/27/2006 9:10:00 PM

IF you go stang the downfall will either be the shitty t-5 matted to the good 5.0 or the shitty 4.6 matted to the good t-45/3650. Expection being the 32v 4.6... and thats cause I drive and 01 Cobra everyday. Seriously you outta check out a '99 or '01 cobra cause they are getting fairly cheap and have the IRS. <-- not sure if thats good or bad. good for auto-x.

3/27/2006 9:56:33 PM

another car.... Lincoln LS... V8 and RWD and handles like a mofo... think about it.

3/27/2006 10:10:15 PM

screw that, 03/04 cobra.

3/27/2006 10:14:21 PM

yea shit it.. go for a zinc yellow 03!!!!

3/27/2006 10:24:51 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "Awesome motor in a not so well built car." that describes my car to a t. "

Thats why I like the Vettes. Sorta lookin for an 02-04 Z06

3/27/2006 10:27:47 PM

Quote :

"screw that, 03/04 cobra."

mmmmm i would love to have one of those

but out of the three in this thread i would go for the camaro as long as it was a ls1

gotta love that engine....especially for what you can get those cars for now

3/27/2006 10:35:03 PM

Yea I kinda wish I'd gone for the LS1 now myself. My LT1 hasn't had that fucking Opti-Spark crap shit the bed yet, but I have had little problems with it here and there. Its a damn strong engine though.

I really wanna wait for somebody to figure out the LT1/LS1 to LS7 swap and then drop that in my car. But until that time I'm sloggin' it out in the LT1.

3/27/2006 10:51:39 PM

yeah the problem is with what the ls7 costs you could beef up a ls1 that would be a lot faster for a lot cheaper

i would still love to have a ls7 though dont get me wrong

3/27/2006 11:57:09 PM

what about rollin' out with a cc306 in that LT1...that'd be enough for most bolt on LS1's wouldn't it?

oh and my vote is for 03-04 cobra, simply for the IRS...i'm more of a drag/solid axle guy myself

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 12:09 AM. Reason : yeah]

3/28/2006 12:08:06 AM

if he wants to autox/hpde, and isn't full of shit like half the people in teh garage and their "track car" projects, it's kind of hard to choose a solid rear axled car.

3/28/2006 6:23:28 AM

You can't auto-X with my neighbors ride. I should take a picture of his poser ride. He has a fucking '01 V-6 Mustang with like 20's on it and a huge decal on the back of the car that says Auto-X. I'd like to see that little shit go out to and autocross event and get owned and tear up those fucking rims.

3/28/2006 6:51:31 AM

maybe he'll chime in here.

he might also be looking at 240sx, 944s, and who knows what else. ideas are probably welcome.

he's coming from a VW R32 which he autoxes a lot so i'm sure he'd truly use this car.

he's looking at '99 cobras i think due to its IRS, but i also heard its not the hottest IRS around anyway so its almost moot. solid axles are goofy to me, but who knows. it can be made to work i hear. i really don't know too much about american cars besides my old intrepid that broke down every weekend and our Acclaim rallyx car that isnt so reliable either.

personally, id trade big horse power for some balance and feel, but who knows. any of the american cars above would be faster than my M3, but at our skill level i'm sure i could get the m3 around the track faster/safer

3/28/2006 10:04:01 AM

Eh, stock vs. stock the M3 shouldn't be much slower, if any than most of the cars mentioned on track. From my experience, a nice 328 should be near bulletproof for stock work.

PS: Solid axle works fine on track, def. better than it does on the street, and plenty of people don't mind a solid axle on the street...
Ahmet

3/28/2006 11:47:00 AM

edit: "nice 328 should be near bulletproof for stock work" should read "for track work"...

If he wants reliability in the same sense that his R32 was, he should pass on the 240, the 944 and anything else that's more than 10 years old... I could have other suggestions if he's willing to give up a bit of speed for lower running costs (doesn't apply if he won't be doing a significant number of track events), such a miata or an e30. Ofcourse he could step up, and get an m3

Speaking of, maybe I'll sell mine, I need a dedicated track car, it's getting old to track a stock car...
Ahmet

3/28/2006 12:05:26 PM

Quote :

" isn't full of shit like half the people in teh garage and their "track car" projects"

haha, pot meet kettle.

3/28/2006 12:37:02 PM

I never had a "track car" project. I wanted it purely for street/strip. When I saw how expensive real track events were, I gave that idea up. Maybe if I get this new job, I'll finish it, but I'll probably just feel better about letting someone buy for a lot less than its worth.

3/28/2006 1:53:01 PM

^^^yeh i meant straightline/bigger hp type speed. the M3 is clearly a better track machine

3/28/2006 2:37:07 PM

I would go with the mustang, but only if its a cobra for these reasons:

1. BMWs are overrated, especially up here
2. F-bodies, while very fast, dont have that great of handling.
3. The cobras can keep up with an F-body and out handle it.

3/28/2006 4:05:15 PM

umm, i dont think a 03-04 cobra is in his price range. if so there are better options out there.

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 4:13 PM. Reason : plus it weighs as much as a truck.]

3/28/2006 4:12:19 PM

'chime'
yeah basically from what I've read, the cobra IRS was designed to use all the same mounting points as the solid axle, so it is quite compromised. I read in one magazine that they actually liked the way the bullitt handled better than the cobra(the bullitt has tokio shocks and springs). Granted the car I get will probly be in the 80k miles range so it will need suspension anyway. The solid axle is quite archaic but from what I hear it works. The thing that bugs me about the mustang is the steering, its super loose and I dont know how much it can be helped. I drove an LT1 SS the other day, the steering was great, motor was great and it actually gets good MPG on the highway( cruises at like 1k). The interior isnt too impressive..it looks the same as my moms lumina so the mustang wins there. I haven't driven the 328 yet or dan's m3(cause i cant see over the steering wheel). But if I get a 328 I'm loosing about 70hp from what I have now. With a mustang GT i'll be at about the same(slower on the track tho). A NA cobra would be nice but at my price range it'd probly have 100K miles on it. Basically I need something that i can drive daily for 3-4 years that will be fun at autocross. After that it would be the track monster with rollcage etc.

3/28/2006 4:49:19 PM

I can tell ya that the Mustang does not handle better than the Camaro. I'm at a bodyshop with several Mustang owners (5.0's, Bullitt, etc.) and one other guy with a Z28 and his outhandles the shit outta both of them, and his is a stock ass 95. I haven't raced mine against them to see, but he has taken them out multiple times in his M6 Z28 and not just wiped them up on the line, but also taken care of business in the twisties.

In fact Edmunds did a road course test with the Z28, Mustang Bullitt GT, and several sport coupes, like Celica, Prelude, Eclipse, etc. at Willow Springs raceway in 2002. The Z28 outdid all of those cars on the road course, and put down times .4 of a second faster lap times than the Bullitt. And that wasn't even an SS, just the plain ol' Z28. They still said the interior of the 'Stang was better (no shit) and it road better (again, no shit) but the Z28 was the fastest, straight line and in the road course. BTW, no BMW's were in the test, so I can't compare it to the 328 or M3. Sorry.

3/28/2006 7:51:07 PM

Quote :

"1. BMWs are overrated, especially up here"

Care to elaborate?

3/28/2006 8:22:22 PM

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=43891

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=47901/pageId=5979

basically the camaro is better on paper, but most like the mustang better!?

3/28/2006 8:33:39 PM

what's your budget? that will help alot.

3/28/2006 9:47:23 PM

Quote :

"1. BMWs are overrated, especially up here"

Quote :

"Care to elaborate?"

like half of the shit up here is people talking about BMWs especially M3s or M5s. Ive never owned a BMW, but I had a spoiled Ex one time who did, and I just didnt find it that great.

3/28/2006 9:52:17 PM

10K is my limit

3/28/2006 10:06:59 PM

you can get a ls1 trans am or ls1 z28 for that pretty easily

of course i may be a little biased but that is what i would go for if i was you


[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 10:17 PM. Reason : .]

3/28/2006 10:14:14 PM

^^^

well, just for the sake of argument:
car and driver found the 3-series to be one of the top 10 cars of the year, every year, for the past 15 years straight.

maybe there's some substance behind all of the conversation you hear?

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 10:57 PM. Reason : .]

3/28/2006 10:57:23 PM

"Ive never owned a BMW, but I had a spoiled Ex one time who did, and I just didnt find it that great."
Not that this sounds like the most informed opinion, but I will offer you this;
BMWs (M3s/M5s) don't have all the numbers that you may want (power), but they offer a great compromise between performance and practicality/comfort as well as durability. They're also quite a bit of fun to drive, again more than the numbers would have you believe. Ofcourse they don't appeal to everyone... Put it this way, if you replaced enough bushings and stiffened enough suspension components to make a mustang/camaro feel as tight and intimate as an M3, it will ride and feel quite a bit worse in every day driving (they already don't ride as well out of the box).

PS: Car/driver found the e36 m3 to be the best handling car at any price sold in the U.S.
Ahmet

3/29/2006 12:38:22 AM

side note.... A bullitt mustang only has 5 more HP than the 99-04 GT. The N/A cobra has roughly 40 more horses than a 99-04 GT.

3/29/2006 8:05:51 AM

im willing to bet the bullitt was a bit underrated, albeit not much. The 03-04 cobras are def. underrated, Ive seen close to 390 at the wheels stock, and flywheel hp is supposedly 390 stock, yea right, closer to 425-430ish.

3/29/2006 5:18:41 PM

The Bullitt even Edmunds in that review above said was a better driving car than the Cobra.

3/29/2006 6:46:34 PM

both are horrible, mustangs are much worse as far as major problems though, from say mid 80's to late 90's

3/29/2006 10:29:46 PM

The v-6 mustangs are known to have major problems, yes, such as blowing head gaskets and the like, but I have never heard of any major problems with v-8 mustangs from this time period. Hell, I own one, ive never had any major problems.

3/30/2006 6:07:37 AM

you already lost your credibility

3/30/2006 11:19:59 AM

how is that? Because I dont shit talk mustangs? or because I think BMW's are overrated?

[Edited on March 30, 2006 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

3/30/2006 12:59:18 PM

^well you see garage credibility is largely based upon hanging from the nuts of euro cars so...think what you will

i think you have a point with the v6/v8 debate...seems like a car that america might take more pride in, i.e. v8 pony cars, corvettes, etc are less problematic than their less appealing, more run of the mill models such as the v6 variants of those

3/30/2006 1:08:16 PM

your right about the euro cars nuts thing. from looking at his photo gallery I apparently lost my credibility because he drives a bmw.

3/30/2006 2:45:05 PM

because you made a pretty bold statement about bmw's
but your only experience with one is driving in your girlfriends

from your passenger seat experience you were able to figure out that the consensus of most of the automotive press is wrong

3/30/2006 2:48:16 PM

no, I drove it.

3/30/2006 5:24:03 PM

oh well that changes everything

wait

3/30/2006 5:37:32 PM

BRING THIS SHIT BACK TO THE TOP

4/7/2006 12:40:21 AM

sure I like german cars as much as the next guy. but muscle cars can handle well with some work... and there's no $$shift or rear subframe tears


on a side note, i just drove a supercharged miata sick

4/7/2006 10:09:04 PM

yeah you can make them handle, but you the ride sucks after. i wouldnt want that for my dd

4/7/2006 10:28:56 PM