My mom wants to start moving her dogs to a 'raw diet'
more meat than dry dog food

Looking for a place locally (well, she lives in hillsboro, but raleigh isnt that far) to get goat or beef trimmings, the leftover parts from processing.. basically cheap meat

anyone know? Thanks..

2/10/2006 7:22:41 PM

try the slimjim place.


oh, wait. they sell the leftovers as slimjims.

2/10/2006 7:46:26 PM

first of all, i don't live in raleigh, so i can't give you any recommendations about where to buy meat. i just wanted to say that if your mom is considering any homemade diet for her dogs, she should definitely discuss it with her veterinarian first if she hasn't already, because her dogs may not get a nutritionally balanced diet strictly from meat if she doesn't supplement/manage it properly. for example, you could easily throw off the calcium:phosphorus ratio or feed too much protein which can cause renal problems (commercial pet foods are strictly regulated by the AAFCO to contain a balance of nutrients). and fyi, dogs are susceptible to pathogens in raw meat (just like people) and are not strict carnivores (they require a 2:1 or 3:1 calorie to protein ratio), unlike cats. just wanted to give you a little more info.

2/10/2006 7:50:00 PM

Maybe the vet could suggest a particular mix of foods for the dogs.

I personally don't see the point of a raw diet if the meat isn't better stuff than what's put in dog food.

2/10/2006 7:53:49 PM

Going to a raw diet is pointless if youa re going to use scrap meat and trimmings and you aren't going to take the time to get a proper diet plan from a veterinary nutritionist. Odds are your dog will be worse off than sticking with a basic dog food. If you want to improve your dogs nutrition with prepared dog food then switch to a premium brand. Even a Eukanuba will work, but Nutro and some of the other super-premiums are definitely quality. Don't just take anything you read on the Internet or from a breeder as gospel.

2/11/2006 12:38:15 AM

dry dog food is the best diet a dog can have, nutritionally.

2/11/2006 3:56:48 AM

raw is a halfway okay idea if you say, killed the deer right in your backyard just before hte dog ate it...

but feeding your dog raw meat that's picked up all sorts of diseases from being handled by multiple humans in a factory somewhere is a bad idea. sure dogs at one point ate nothing but fresh meat they ran down, but your dog wasn't catching animals already infested w/ salmonella and other pathogens.


bad idea

2/11/2006 10:33:25 AM

can someone explain the point of this to me, diseases aside.

2/11/2006 11:02:55 AM

if you're going to give your dog raw meat, make sure that there are no live animals of the same type of meat around...my aunt's dog found some raw chicken meat that her neighbor had thrown out in her backyard and ate it all...the next week he started killing her chickens...she talked to her vet about it and he said that once an animal gets a taste of a certain kind of raw meat, it can go out and try to hunt for that same kind and if there are any of those type of animals around, they could kill them.

2/11/2006 11:14:26 AM

don't feed them after midnight!

2/11/2006 11:39:58 AM

the thing about meat based diets is...most animals in the wild eat the entrails moreso than the muscle, the entrails are the most beneficial because thats where the nutrients are

2/11/2006 11:53:00 AM

i think this is the stupidest idea in the world.

your mom isn't very bright.

2/11/2006 12:16:59 PM

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/iams.htm
most of the popular dog food isnt quite as wholesome as they would have you think.. quite a bit of cheap filler like corn and rice..

and do you think that the manufactuers put /quality/ meat into dogfood? seriously? its the chopped up leftovers of the meat packaging industry that make it into dog food anyways
it wouldnt be cost effective to put prime cuts into dogfood... plus, dogs were never meant to eat cooked grain..

nothin against vets, but quite a few will focus on healing wounds, sickness and not diet

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/
http://www.leerburg.com/diet.htm
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Raw+Diet+for+dogs&btnG=Search

some links if you're interrested

"The philosophy behind using BARF [Biologically Appropriate Raw Food], or the hypothesis on which it is based is that the diet a dog evolved to eat - over many millions of years of evolution - is the best way to feed it. This is the hypothesis accepted by most modern zoos or any zoologist concerned with preserving a species of endangered animal. It is not the theory endorsed by pet food companies or the people they train - and that includes unfortunately - most vets.

If you want to feed your dog BARF, it means not feeding your dog cooked and or processed food. That is, not feeding your dog a diet based on cooked grains, no matter how persuasive the advertising. Artificial grain based dog foods cause innumerable health problems. They are not what your dog was programmed to eat during its long process of evolution."

shame, 11 replies and not one answering the original question
thanks though

2/11/2006 2:56:21 PM

^haha i'm suprised you didnt reference a geocities site with that "information" you are trying to feed us.

2/11/2006 2:59:37 PM

i've fed my 7 month old pitbull mix cooked turkies and chicken, and raw eggs (minus the shells) on occasion, and she loved eating it all. no health problems as of yet though, but i still give her a regular diet of purina one.

2/11/2006 3:34:42 PM

Hope you aren't too attached to the dog, too bad it'll have to suffer for your stupidity

2/11/2006 3:41:50 PM

are you talking to me? the cooked turkies and chicken weren't spiced or anything and they were just the large bones with some meat still on them. so, you can shut the fuck up.

2/11/2006 3:50:18 PM

No, i was talking to windhound. But you probably shouldn't give you dog chicken bones. so, you can shut the fuck up.

2/11/2006 3:57:06 PM

you'd be correct if it were small, cooked chicken bones. raw chicken bones bend and break. large ones are unlikely to choke the dog even if they are cooked (as are the smaller ones). so, you can shut the fuck up again.

2/11/2006 4:43:52 PM

oh, is this the part where you backtrack? didn't know we were there already? so, you can shut the fuck up again.

2/11/2006 4:55:16 PM

where am i backtracking? i stated that the bones were cooked (in my original statement) and large (in the second post). so, for the third time, shut the fuck up.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 4:58 PM. Reason : ]

2/11/2006 4:57:30 PM

ANYWAY, theoretically it is possible to feed a balanced homemade diet to your dog if you choose, but it is very work-intensive. physiologically, domestic dogs are different than "wild dogs" and besides, wild dogs live much shorter natural lives than domestic dogs, so i'm not sure how much that fact supports feeding a "wild" type diet. btw all the facts in my previous post came from the 4 ed. of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition by Hand, Thatcher, Remillard, and Roudebush (just so you don't think i made it up). i personally wouldn't feed my dogs a diet strictly of raw meat, whether or not i was concerned about preservatives/meat products used in commercial dog foods.

2/11/2006 6:08:09 PM

oh man i love stupid people, endless entertainment

2/11/2006 6:18:56 PM

Our family friend runs the Charlotte Great Dane Rescue. She feeds all her danes big, raw, chicken legs


I have also heard to feed dogs chicken and rice (on doctors orders)

2/11/2006 6:22:46 PM

its a good thing everything on the internet is fact. oh wait

2/11/2006 6:40:21 PM

*shrug*
the only places I can find that say bad things about the raw diet are thoes sponsored by pet food companies, who obviously dont like it.

I dont think there has been enough research done on it myself, I was asked to see if somone would know where to get meat scraps, I thought I'd ask here, apparently noone does

That said,
dogs' systems are much stronger than ours, they eat raw meat. I dont really see anything wrong with it.
with dry bag food they're getting processed meat + corn / rice + misc. chemicals
with the 'raw diet' they get pieces of meat + misc other

my mom's field is chemical research, she's had dogs all of her life, I trust her judgement

2/11/2006 7:16:43 PM

Dogs are not wolves, they have evolved to eat a more omnivirous mix of food. dogfood is okay. If your dog was a wolf, he would have the jaws capable of taking down a deer or ripping one apart after a kill.

2/11/2006 7:20:39 PM

I've heard a lot of propaganda about how dogs are susceptable to stomach cancer if you switch up their diet too much.

I always thought it was bullshit though, to try to build brand loyalty.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 7:23 PM. Reason : 1]

2/11/2006 7:21:54 PM

I haven't heard stomach cancer, but it's just unhealthy unless you gradually adjust them to the new diet. They'll have an upset stomach, diahrrea. My 11 yr old dog used to live outside back where I grew up, and we'd always give them leftovers. Since bringing her up here to Raleigh, and being a little stricter with her diet, with a lot fewer leftovers, she now gets an upset stomach and pukes all over the place if given something other than dogfood, except for a particular type of treat, cooked eggs, and tuna.

You'd have to talk to an animal scientist to really get an idea of what kind of raw diet is okay. Kitty B is in animal science, maybe you could PM her about it. Otherwise I'd suggest asking a professor or other scientist in that field. You could also talk to a zoologist who might know about the evolution of the domestic animal.

It's not like dogfood is bad for dogs. I don't see how feeding a dog a raw diet will give it a healthier lifestyle than a dog eating a decent brand of dogfood, as long as it gets regular exercise and attention.

2/11/2006 11:47:35 PM

all I have to say is people have kept dogs for thousands of years before commerical dog food was ever invented. I had somebody tell me once that table scraps were bad for dogs, but I don't know what they thought dogs ate until relatively recently. As a veterinarian told me- you wouldn't want to eat dry cereal all the time, would you?

2/12/2006 12:30:00 AM

Quote :

"Our family friend runs the Charlotte Great Dane Rescue. She feeds all her danes big, raw, chicken legs"

No offense but breeders and people who run rescue groups think they know so much about animals but really have very little science backing up anything. My sister runs a Greyhound rescue group so I see and hear it first hand (and my fiance finishes vet school this year).

Quote :

"most of the popular dog food isnt quite as wholesome as they would have you think.. quite a bit of cheap filler like corn and rice.. and do you think that the manufactuers put /quality/ meat into dogfood? seriously? its the chopped up leftovers of the meat packaging industry that make it into dog food anyways it wouldnt be cost effective to put prime cuts into dogfood... plus, dogs were never meant to eat cooked grain.."

Most of what goes into dry dog food are leftover organs and meat and that is exactly what the animals need. You do not want to feed a dog a steady diet of lean chicken breast or whatever you think constitutes premium cuts. The nutrition is in what most of us think of as leftovers.

Quote :

"The philosophy behind using BARF [Biologically Appropriate Raw Food]"

Whats funny is that BARF originally stood for Bones and Raw Food but they had to take the "bones" part out because countless medical information proved that it was not healthy but actually dangerous to feed bones.

Quote :

"nothin against vets, but quite a few will focus on healing wounds, sickness and not diet"

Which is why you should consult a veterinary nutritionist and not random_geocities_site832 or http://www.ImABreederAndKnowSoMuchMoreShitThanEveryoneElse.com

Quote :

"the only places I can find that say bad things about the raw diet are thoes sponsored by pet food companies, who obviously dont like it."

Ever talked to an educated and trained veterinary nutritionist? Didn't think so. Its not that raw meat itself is bad just that people generally do not provide the animal with the essential vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc. that are formulated into a regulated prepared food. I've helped prepare food for an animal with extreme food allergies (pet-sitting for two vets). It was cooked barley, boiled cod fish meat, and like 500 different pills ground up and mixed in. If you feed a dog thighs and breast meat it is simply not going to get everything it needs.

Quote :

"dogs' systems are much stronger than ours, they eat raw meat. I dont really see anything wrong with it. with dry bag food they're getting processed meat + corn / rice + misc. chemicals with the 'raw diet' they get pieces of meat + misc other my mom's field is chemical research, she's had dogs all of her life, I trust her judgement"

Dogs in the wild don't eat simply raw meat. They actually eat a lot of fruits, berries, veggies, and such that fall to the ground... they are scroungers. Plus, as mentioned earlier, they eat the "guts" of the animal first, not the stuff we like to throw on the grill. This is where most of the nutrition is. Prepared pet food is subject to more stringent FDA regulations than human food, believe it or not. There are set guidelines the food has to follow, certain minimum amounts of specific proteins and such. There aren't random chemicals thrown in there for the hell of it or anything else like you are trying to pass off. Corn is in some of the generic foods but that is not an issue unless your dog has an allergy. Your mom's field of chemical research and the fact that she has owned a lot of dogs means jack shit when it comes to understanding animal nutrition. My fiance is finishing up her 4th year of vet school this semester. She was an animal nutrition major for undergrad. That is 8 years of studying animal anatomy, physiology, and nutrition... I'll trust her judgement (as well as that of pretty much every professional in veterinary science) over that of your mom's any day.

Cats would make more sense for a raw diet but people still don't do it properly and probably end up causing more harm than good. Your dog is better off with something like Eukanuba or Nutro if you want a quality diet. Right now our dog gets Eukanuba Fish and Potato.

Quote :

"all I have to say is people have kept dogs for thousands of years before commerical dog food was ever invented. I had somebody tell me once that table scraps were bad for dogs, but I don't know what they thought dogs ate until relatively recently. As a veterinarian told me- you wouldn't want to eat dry cereal all the time, would you?"

Humans got by for thousands of years on what amounted to table scraps too... of course their life expectancy was about 40 years lower than ours is today. Same goes for dogs. Dry dog food is not the equivalent of dry cereal, not even close. And to be honest, if you were to eat a nutritious cereal with balance protein, fiber, vitamins, minerals, etc. then you would be better off than what most of us eat 3 times a day for meals.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 12:38 AM. Reason : .]

2/12/2006 12:33:45 AM

ever tried bil-jac?

Quote :

"Bil-Jac is unique. Your dog is a carnivore - a meat eating animal. That's why Bil-Jac provides the MOST Fresh Meat protein in his diet. We start by using the highest quality and quantity of fresh chicken meat, which we source fresh from nearby chicken processors that make the fresh chicken for your dinner table. From there, we protect the meat's nutrients by using the industry's only slow-cook, low temperature vacuum process. This means the heat sensitive Amino Acids are protected from heat damage that occurs in most "expanded" dog foods. And we add just the right amount of vitamins and minerals after processing, protecting the vitamins from heat damage. Because of our unique processing, no fat is added to Bil-Jac. Fat occurs naturally with the use of fresh meat ingredients. Most other foods list fat as an added ingredient. At the rendering plant (where our competitors purchase most of their protein sources in powdered meat form-not fresh) the fat is separated from the meal in a high temperature/high pressure process. Not only are the Amino Acids subjected to high heat and pressure, but our competitors also have to spray fat on the food at the very end of their process. The quality of Bil-Jac's fat is superior because of its absolute freshness, because it has not been repeatedly subjected to high heat and pressure, and because it was never separated from the meat in processing. As in your diet at home, freshness of ingredients and careful preparation lead to a diet that is both superior in nutrition and delicious to eat."

like previously mentioned, the reason dogs are living better and longer than they used to is because of the dog food we feed them. dogs have been domesticated for thousands and thousands of years. domesticated...meaning reliant on humans for a very long time. dogs' diets have improved beyond what they could provide for themselves because of humans, and again that has caused them to have longer life expectancies. domestication =/= tame.

yes, if there was "people chow", just a crunchy food with the exact mix of nutrients humans need, most would be better off.

"chemical research" and animal nutrition are light years away from each other. your mom knows no more about animal nutrition from what she learned in her field than does a nuclear physicist.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 7:50 AM. Reason : ]

2/12/2006 7:40:22 AM

chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!chemicals!

2/12/2006 9:00:10 AM

I'm sorry I can't tell you where you can get food, check out some hunting clubs, maybe, but in response to

Quote :

""nothin against vets, but quite a few will focus on healing wounds, sickness and not diet""

Mayfair Animal Hospital has Veterinary Nutritional Advocate on staff, and we are very focused on getting dogs on the right diet for their particular needs and lifestyle. We recommend Science Diet, though, but I don't know if any of the doctors have any experience or teachings in raw diets.

2/12/2006 9:40:38 AM

cooked bones splinter, so please please don't feed them to your dogs. msb2ncsu that was a wonderful post! I have been racking my brain lately over dog food and this subject came up right in time. I have been trained medically so i have always fed Eukanuba or Science Diet, but with all of the rescue stuff i do it seems like more people are trying the holistic all natural foods. i have never wanted to do a raw diet, just for the facts that 1- my dog is a domesticated dog not a wolf (therefore is not "made" to handle a raw diet it would shorten her life expectancy. 2- i don't have the time to prepare a perfectally balanced nutritional diet for her. That takes a lot of work and it isn't just cutting a filet mignon and giving it to your dog.

2/12/2006 10:41:05 AM

my dog loves it when i eat a T-bone because his dinner is the bone!!!1


IT'S NATURAL FOR HIM TO EAT BONES!!!2

2/12/2006 1:11:44 PM

but not cooked ones

2/12/2006 2:06:03 PM

Quote :

"the only places I can find that say bad things about the raw diet are thoes sponsored by pet food companies, who obviously dont like it. "

so i guess everyone in this thread works for the per food companies then?

Quote :

"all I have to say is people have kept dogs for thousands of years before commerical dog food was ever invented. "

yes, and humans have been eating food for thousands of years before modern cooking was around. Our lifespans have increased over the years as has that of domesticated dogs.

and i would trust the fierce majority of veterinarians who support manufactured dog food over all the conspiracy theory filled wacko web pages out there. how many years did you mother attend school learning about animal nutrition?

2/12/2006 4:23:49 PM

Tell your mom not to bother unless she wants her dog's dental bills to sky rocket. If she really wants a healthy dog food, use Nutro.

I'd like to add that at least you're researching this and trying to do the best for your dog. The morons out there who feed their dogs raw meat because they think they like it, etc need to be fed raw meat and see how much they like it themselves. Dogs are as far from wolves and eating raw meat as we are. They are no longer capable of processing a totally raw diet, they have evolved away from that. Anywho, good luck with this...

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 6:01 PM. Reason : meh]

2/12/2006 5:57:52 PM

eh. yeah.
my mom has talked to a vet, family friend

/her/ facts are not based off your so called geocity sites, nor random speculation.

as I said, I dont think there has been enough research done to properly denounce it yet.
hell, I havnt really done any research on it. I attempted to look up some stuff to figgure out what it is, mostly to attempt to defend myself on here = P
I personally dont have a dog anymore, she died from a weak heart halfway through my freshman year of college, she was five.

my mom's dogs are greyhounds and dobermans. large breeds bred to hunt prey and defend (respectivly). They have 2.4 fenced, mostly wooded acres in which to run..
they are not lapdogs, though sometimes they like to think they are

if you tried feeding chiwawas or pomeranians a 'raw diet' they may not take to it as well, yeah

nuclear physics has nothin to do with chemicals, which I guess was the point, kinda random.. though, I never said which branch of chemical research

domesticated for thousands of years, yeah. what do you think they ate before bagged dogfood? bagged dogfood was created for convience, as its easier to scoop out a cup and add a bit of wet dogfood..
according to: http://www.petfoodinstitute.org/what_is_history.cfm bagged dogfood became mainstream in the 1950's - 1960's so that's only been about 50 years
yeah, they're not ripping apart rabbits and deer anymore but their diets are still primarily meat based and have only been based on mass produced kibble form for the past 50 years

dental bills? dogs dont get clean teeth from kibble. The dogs are given large bones to gnaw on, this helps their teeth and on occasion their teeth will be cleaned with a dental scraper. trips to the vet to have teeth done is kinda wasteful when you can do it yourself

yes. dogs will get ill if their food is changed immediatly. that's why if you're changing brands you mix them together for a little while before completly using the new brand.

yes. dog food companies dont throw random chemicals in their food. I understand that, because it also wouldnt be cost effective for the companies to waste money on whats not needed. But there are chemicals in it, preservatives and such so the food doesnt have to be kept cold and will last a little bit on store shelves. Like twinkies, though I would hope not to that extent.

'Think I'm done with this topic, thanks for all the input
oh. and I like dry cereal

2/12/2006 10:40:03 PM

Quote :

"yeah, they're not ripping apart rabbits and deer anymore but their diets are still primarily meat based and have only been based on mass produced kibble form for the past 50 years"

and dogs are MUCH healthier and longer living now compared to 50 years ago.

Quote :

"ental bills? dogs dont get clean teeth from kibble."

haha yes they do. idiot.

2/13/2006 12:31:19 AM

^^you obviously don't know much about dogs

2/13/2006 10:46:44 AM

hillsborough

2/13/2006 10:52:08 AM

we used to feed our pet chihuahua vienna sausages b/c they were cheaper than dog food but then it developed gout

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 10:54 AM. Reason : her name was tiny!]

2/13/2006 10:53:58 AM

Quote :

"dental bills? dogs dont get clean teeth from kibble. The dogs are given large bones to gnaw on, this helps their teeth and on occasion their teeth will be cleaned with a dental scraper. trips to the vet to have teeth done is kinda wasteful when you can do it yourself"

...your dog needs to be taken away right now. If you want your dog to have teeth in its old age, dental care is EXTREMELY important. Big bones don't cut it, and raw hides can easily be choked on. Kibble, as with both dogs and cats, is vital to cleaning their teeth. It breaks up the tartar and crap in a way that bones don't. Speak to any vet and they'll tell you a dog/cat on a kibble diet versus raw or wet has MUCH better teeth. I retrack my previous kudos to you, because obviously you have never consulted with anyone who knows a lick about dog care, anatomy, and nutrition.

And what the hell is a "chiwawa"????

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 10:59 AM. Reason : O_O]

2/13/2006 10:58:12 AM

seems like no one here is going to give you the info you need...best find a phone book and start calling around and asking yourself.

2/13/2006 10:58:31 AM

heh. last post, I promise. I'm tired of this topic, it wont die peacefully.. though, it is kinda interresting that my 4th topic here got 43 posts not counting mine

Chihuahua then. chiwawa is phonetical and I dont [as I'm sure is evident] do spell check on my posts.. google it, its a common misspell
http://www.akc.org/breeds/chihuahua/index.cfm?SEARCH_BUTTON.X=7\&SEARCH_BUTTON.Y=14

as stated, my mom cleans their teeth when it becomes nessicary. we know that dental care is important. my mom has owned more dogs /much/ longer than you have, and all have lived and died with their teeth healthy. none rotted out. You cant tell me that within the past 50 years that kibble has been availible dog's teeth have adapted so that is the only way they can become clean
the whole 'brush twice every week' is a good cover-all statement for thoes who dont feel they are doing enough for their pets. yeah, it probably helps, but is overkill, given you're just scraping the teeth anyways [no toothpaste!].. chewing a bone, while it doesnt cover every last bit of tooth does the same thing, the occasional cleaning to get the parts that didnt get covered naturaly would seem fine.

http://www.akc.org:
tip 43
# Clean Those Teeth
To prevent tooth decay and gum disease, clean your dog's teeth regularly. Most dogs will accept a "toothbrush" if introduced to it slowly and gently. You can also give your dog products such as hard biscuits, rope bones and nylon chews to keep his teeth clean.

^ have been doing that, was hopeful that TWW might provide a better response, as packagers arnt really listed in the phone book.. thoes that need them know where to find them and all that.. ah well. thanks

2/13/2006 11:55:38 AM

your mother is a fucking dolt

2/13/2006 12:08:36 PM

Quote :

"seems like no one here is going to give you the info you need...best find a phone book and start calling around and asking yourself."

more like:

seems like no one here is going to give you the info you need you wanted to hear
there were lots of informed posts

i love it when people ask advice but really they have already made up their mind and are just trying to justify it and will zealously defend their position despite unanimous disagreement

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2006 12:25:32 PM

he didn't ask for advice on going to a raw diet though...he just asked for a location to get cheap meat.

2/13/2006 12:29:07 PM