Do any other departments besides the Physics department allow this? It’s kind of weird being a senior and being taught by another senior in an astronomy lab. I had to spend an extra hour out the cold 2 weeks ago because of being repetitively given broken telescopes to use. I can’t wait until that class is over. The teacher is nice, but like every lab I’ve had at state its taught by students and the lab materials are broken or in disarray, the lab manuals have incorrect information & instructions, and it meets at inconvenient times. Meeting outside for hours at a time from around 7 to 10 in the winter is new to me for labs.

But I digress… now that my rant about how poorly labs in general are set up at ncsu is over, my main question is do other departments allow undergrad teachers? Or is the astronomy department just getting around it by listing a TA on the schedule who is a grad student but has no actual affiliation with the class.

2/4/2006 5:00:47 PM

CSC does

2/4/2006 5:18:27 PM

Yes, I actually have a friend who is a junior by hours but this is only her second year at State and she teaches pretty high level ZO labs like ZO 250L

[Edited on February 4, 2006 at 5:20 PM. Reason : ...]

2/4/2006 5:19:28 PM

its been my experience that students, while they sometimes know the material of the lab manual, aren't very adept at answer questions, and are quick to anger... like they have to be mean to get respect. when a class has met twice and you've already heard about 5 times that if you are 5 mins late thats an absence at you get a 0, and that the student hates having to repeat themselves... it just seems very unfriendly. Which sets up a bad environment when you inevitably end up with broken equipment or a lab manual with incorrect information and you have a student teacher who doesn't want to/know how to deal with it.

my chemistry lab was a joke.. it was come and stay for the several hours at night, the student teacher didn't read the answers and just gave you like a B or so if you answered all the questions. i think thats a nonsensical grading policy... but not much can be done about it. i can't wait to graduate from state just to be away from the science labs.

2/4/2006 5:32:30 PM

I'm a senior and I teach a chem lab.

2/4/2006 10:56:30 PM

Quote :

"in an astronomy lab"

Quote :

"Meeting outside for hours at a time from around 7 to 10 in the winter is new to me for labs"

When else would expect to look at the stars? 1-4pm? 8-12?

2/4/2006 11:16:11 PM

the only thing I find really weird is that I'm taking classes with former TAs. I'm a junior by credit hours.

2/4/2006 11:25:39 PM

Most labs everywhere are taught by some level of graduate students...and there are instances where undergrads are actually the best available. In general, I've found that the more upper level undergrad classes (ie, a junior/senior majors lab) are taught by faculty or very advanced grad students, major classes taught by TAs, and classes for general ed-type requirements taught by younger grad students and older undergrads - and this is true both at NC State and the graduate schools I'm interviewing at. Though some places just use grad students as a convenient way to get the classes TA'ed, realize that's the first place your professors started to garner experience. If you wanted to have your non-major science labs taught by PhD holding faculty, a liberal arts college may have been a better ticket for you.

In general, the lab equipment is messed up because undergrads who were late for class and didn't care to listen to a TA they thought they knew more than mistreated it. The micro dept has some nightmare microscopes that you learn quickly to stay away from.

I think it boils down to newer TAs are more likely to repeat department policies because they don't want to mess up or have things not go well on their watch. Don't blame the TAs for poorly written lab materials - they didn't develop it, and likely, even if you had a grad student they may not be able to reconsile outdated information. Departments put more effort into updating and revising lab materials for majors courses.

Physics also uses undergrad TAs, as does botany.

2/5/2006 12:18:13 AM

heh, i'm in a grad math class with the TA from my last semester's ECE-421 class. that's funny.

2/5/2006 12:42:46 AM

The TA in charge of my astronomy lab doesn't (seem to) know what she's doing and seems a little hostile. Some people had a problem with the way she graded our first lab assignment. Before this semester I had only seen TAs doing what you might expect, assisting the professor. I had no idea that they could be assigned to teach entire classes. The worst part is, I didn't even need to take this lab. Had I known the situation I definitely would have signed up for something else.

2/5/2006 1:06:44 AM

I am currently teaching my third semester of fortran lab and I have never had any complaints on the evaluations. It sounds to me that you just have either a disgruntled TA that wants to go on a power trip to establish his/her "dominance"

2/5/2006 12:55:31 PM

my friends a freshman teaching chem 202

2/5/2006 1:18:13 PM

Quote :

"If you wanted to have your non-major science labs taught by PhD holding faculty, a liberal arts college may have been a better ticket for you."

I never asked for a PhD, a nice bit of hyperbole there, but a degree higher than a highschool diploma for teaching college level classes would be nice.

Quote :

"Don't blame the TAs for poorly written lab materials"

I know the lab manuals are screwed up by one person, the broken/lack of equipment is someone else fault, and the poor teaching has yet another person to blame.

But when it comes down to it I hold the professor for a class ultimately responsible for the quality of the class they teach rather than the everyone’s to blame so no ones to blame route, especially since the professor for the class is the representative for the university for that class.

It also seems disingenuous to list a grad student as the TA for the class, and them have them not be involved with the class at all, and instead have someone teaching it who is an undergrad.

I'm not complaining about just one instance of a bad lab, this is more of a composite of labs that I and others have had similar bad experiences with.

I believe asking for someone with a more advanced degree in their field(above a highschool diploma) than I have to be teaching me in college level classes, and asking for honesty on the syllabus/registration site about who is teaching the class isn’t out of line.

2/5/2006 1:29:32 PM

Does the fault for this particular course belong to the professor or the department? Find that out first and get back to us. CSC intro course labs are almost nothing but undergraduates. Its definitely a funding issue with that. This particular course may be the professor's CHOICE to have an undergraduate teach it.

If the TA is doing a poor job, somebody needs to know about it so corrective action can be taken. That goes for any person in any position.

[Edited on February 5, 2006 at 6:12 PM. Reason : .]

2/5/2006 6:09:38 PM

i had a sophomore ch 202 lab ta this summer. it was pretty annoying because she had just taken the class herself and could never answer any questions and even though you would think she would know how to do the experiments, she had no idea.

2/5/2006 6:47:15 PM

^^I'll second the suggestion to let the person in charge of the lab program know of your concerns.

There are excellent TA's out there. I know of a few that give great pre-labs and stay after lab to answer homework questions associated with the lecture.

On the other hand, I know of TA's with poor people skills who choose not to answer student questions and don't want to be there.

If it's an undergraduate, the lab director can give them a poor review and recommend that they not be hired again. If it's a graduate student, that's a little more tricky. Graduate students seem to be considered "free labor" with an inexhaustible amount of time to devote to research and teaching. It's difficult to replace free labor with paid labor.

However, at least the lab director can talk to the TA, whether they are a graduate student or undergraduate, and start investigating ways to maintain the equipment between lab sections.

At least some of the TA's in my department are provided with detailed descriptions of the labs and the typical data students should obtain. If the TA takes the trouble to look it up, a lot of information is available to help students find the right answer themselves. A good TA will guide a student's thinking toward the right answer, but let the student make the connection themselves. Information sticks a lot better when you make the connection yourself instead of being given the answer.

That said, I really felt I got a lot out of the labs at my small college, probably because the Ph.D. professor was in the room during lab, the TA's were assistants, and if something was broke the prof was working on it right away. I just don't see that as economically viable at NCSU, until one gets to the upper-level labs.

2/5/2006 9:09:52 PM

This is my third time as a TA for BO 200.

2/5/2006 10:24:48 PM