12/19/2005 12:44:03 AM

I wish Arabs didn't hate freedom Jews so much...

12/19/2005 12:46:30 AM

That didn't start until about 70 years ago. ..

(for the degree you're implying)

[Edited on December 19, 2005 at 12:47 AM. Reason : thanks, Britain]

12/19/2005 12:47:19 AM

It started quite a while before the state of Israel came about, if that's what you're implying.

12/19/2005 1:14:38 AM

They were fighting during the time of Jesus. So it started a really really long time ago.

12/19/2005 1:16:39 AM

Quote :

"That didn't start until about 70 years ago. .."

um...

12/19/2005 1:22:55 AM

dude everyone has hated on jews for around 5000 years now

12/19/2005 2:39:09 AM

talk about a lack of knowledge in this thread.

12/19/2005 9:31:28 AM

its not just freedom they hate. they hate a lot of stuff.

they're always drinking that haterade.

12/19/2005 10:15:30 AM

Yea Seriously.

Lets see:

Christian led Genocides of Jews: 1
Arab, and to a larger extent, Muslim, led genocides of jews: 0

12/19/2005 5:08:12 PM

Islam is the newest religion on earth. It is thus much more complex.

12/19/2005 5:09:03 PM

Quote :

"Christian led Genocides of Jews: 1 Muslim led genocides of jews: 0"

If you want to get on a high horse I can think of an entire country full of Armenians who would have some things to say about the matter.

Look, we all know the "Muslims and Jews got along fine until recently" rigamarole. But even before WWII (and thus before Israel and the partition and all that) there was a violent resistance to Jewish immigration in Palestine. It had nothing to do with the state of Israel -- it had to do with a broad-based anti-semitism that led to alliances between several large Arab groups and the Nazis.

Thx to History Channel for a special last night

12/19/2005 5:12:26 PM

Muslims, especially hailing from the Middle East, have that inherent tendency to kill/abolish everythng they don't agree with. It's kinda scary if you're talking to a Muslim about religion and faiths and he immediately starts spewing stuff like non-believers of Allah are idiots.

12/19/2005 5:16:23 PM

No Grumpy, they actually wouldn't seeing as how most Armenians are Christian.

Either you can't interpret what you see or you need to stop getting your information from the History Channel. Arab's vehemently opposed the creation of a seperate Isreal on palestinian land but I wouldn't label them as antisemetic and definitely nowhere near to the level Europe was during the times leading up to the creation of Isreal. If they were, there wouldn't be a single jew living in Jerusalem or Isreal as both territories had been under muslim control for several centuries.

Ultra, the same could be said of every extremist on the planet but you obviously haven't spent enough time in school to understand this.

[Edited on December 19, 2005 at 5:38 PM. Reason : .]

12/19/2005 5:37:20 PM

well the point is that almost every Muslim who swears by the Holy Quran is an extremist. So basically, every hardcore religion fanatic is an extremist. Which also explains the state of middle eastern countries that aren't democratic but follow Islamic law.

12/19/2005 5:38:47 PM

Would you consider every Christian who swears on the Holy Bible an extremist?

No.

So shut the fuck up before you make yourself look even more like a clown.

12/19/2005 5:48:55 PM

I am talking about Muslims.

12/19/2005 5:50:01 PM

Penalty on the play.

Failure to make basic logical connection.

Forfiet of debate from start of argument. Game over.

12/19/2005 5:53:11 PM

whatever d00d.

12/19/2005 5:54:29 PM

Quote :

"No Grumpy, they actually wouldn't seeing as how most Armenians are Christian."

I'm well aware of that, but I didn't figure that genocide only counted if it was against Jews.

Quote :

"Either you can't interpret what you see or you need to stop getting your information from the History Channel."

What, now the History Channel is out? Tell me, people, exactly which sources are acceptable?

Quote :

"Arab's vehemently opposed the creation of a seperate Isreal on palestinian land"

I'm referring to a protracted conflict that occured a decade or so before the creation of the state of Israel and thus several years before said creation appeared to be imminent. They were opposed simply to the immigration of Jews. Of course, "they" were not all Muslims or even a majority, but the same can be said of prewar Europeans.

Quote :

"If they were, there wouldn't be a single jew living in Jerusalem or Isreal as both territories had been under muslim control for several centuries."

Irrelevant since the vast majority of the Jews in those regions didn't return there until after they were under British control.

12/19/2005 5:56:17 PM

\

Quote :

"I'm well aware of that, but I didn't figure that genocide only counted if it was against Jews."

I wasn't akeeping a tally of all muslim genocides and ethnic cleansing. I'm only making the point that Christians seem to have had hated jews far more strongly then Muslims.

Quote :

"What, now the History Channel is out? Tell me, people, exactly which sources are acceptable?"

The massive library on campus for starters, researched publications are also nice. Oh lets get crazy and include all primary sources.

Quote :

"there was a violent resistance to Jewish immigration in Palestine. It had nothing to do with the state of Israel -- it had to do with a broad-based anti-semitism that led to alliances between several large Arab groups and the Nazis."

Quote :

"They were opposed simply to the immigration of Jews. "

Backpedal much?

Quote :

"Irrelevant since the vast majority of the Jews in those regions didn't return there until after they were under British control."

Let me broaden my original statement with this:

"During the Middle Ages, Jews in Islamic lands generally had more rights than under Christian rule, with a Golden Age of coexistence in Islamic Spain from about 900 to 1200, when Spain became the center of the richest, most populous, and most influential Jewish community of the time. The rise of more radical Muslim regimes, such as that of the Almohades ended this period by the thirteenth century, and Jews were soon expelled from Spain. Many of these Jews found refuge in the Ottoman Empire, which remained tolerant of its Jewish population for much of its history."

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Zionism_and_immigration

12/19/2005 6:09:17 PM

Get ready. Grump's going to have a field day with using Wikipedia (historical validity of the content presented be damned).

12/19/2005 6:12:29 PM

I only used wikipedia for his benefit. The guy DID try and drag History Channel information into this argument. It matters little to me if he doesn't have enough brainpower to comprehend what I'm saying as he'd only make a fool of himself on this topic more often in the future.

12/19/2005 6:14:17 PM

i think Iran put it best.

"if Germany and Austria feel so bad for what happened to the Jews during WWII why don't they give up some of their land for the state of Israel"

12/19/2005 6:42:05 PM

Iran also did the best by creating a world war situation.

12/19/2005 6:43:15 PM

World War situation? interesting

12/19/2005 6:45:55 PM

Quote :

"The massive library on campus for starters, researched publications are also nice. Oh lets get crazy and include all primary sources."

I think you have unrealistic expectations for debate in a little college forum -- expectations that you yourself certainly don't adhere to. If I'm writing an essay for a class, I'll do those things. But when I'm here, you need to have a specific reason for discouting the History Channel or Wikipedia or whatever other source you think is worthless. That is, don't just say, "ahahaha, its the HC, u cant use that retard," but rather present some evidence to the contrary of what I have said.

Quote :

"Backpedal much?"

What's the difference between being anti-semitic and being against Jews coming to your area? I don't understand how I'm "backpedaling."

Quote :

"During the Middle Ages, Jews in Islamic lands generally had more rights than under Christian rule"

Yes, yes, I know, like I've said, I'm aware of all of this. It's just that I don't put much stock into the relevance of how things were in the Dark Ages, since basically every part of the world has changed completely on even the most fundamental levels since that time.

Yeah, we all know that when Europe was in the Dark Ages, comprised of petty illiterate monarchs slugging it out with each other while peasants starved and nobody knew anything, the Muslim world was metropolitan, tolerant, and the bearer of all classical wisdom.

Without putting too fine a point on things, I'd say the two worlds have pretty much switched places entirely. The Western World is full of countries racing each other to be the most tolerant (whether or not that's prudent), our education facilities are generally the most respected in the world, and our culture is omnipresent, while the Muslim world is comprised to no small extent of nations full of petty illiterate monarchs (just now we call them "warlords) slugging it out with each other while culture languishes in many places where other cultures are outright prohibited and Jews are pretty much uniformly disliked.

Sorry, man, but history is only useful to an extent. Muslims and Jews got along for a long, long time. But in the past seventy years they haven't. The most recent seventy years are way more important for figuring out how to deal with this situation than the last seven hundred.

I fully expect a deluge of misunderstanding at this juncture but to fully explain all the exceptions and intricacies articulately would be time-consuming.

[Edited on December 19, 2005 at 7:14 PM. Reason : ]

12/19/2005 7:11:43 PM

Quote :

"Christian led Genocides of Jews: 1"

you must be talking about the Spanish Inquisition

b/c Nazism was not "Christian Led"

12/19/2005 7:16:24 PM

Nazi's were Christian fanatics

12/19/2005 7:20:03 PM

wow

12/19/2005 7:20:34 PM

yes, shocking isn't it? even christians have fanatics

Army of God for starters

12/19/2005 7:21:22 PM

the Nazis only religion was that of blood

if you can't understand that, i don't know what to tell you

12/19/2005 7:24:43 PM

No, it isn't shocking that there are Christian fanatics, it's shocking that you're stupid enough to think that the Nazis were among them.

12/19/2005 7:24:53 PM

does it hurt?

12/19/2005 7:25:57 PM

it hurts to know people that went to my alma matter think at this level

12/19/2005 7:27:45 PM

i went where again?

and i was wondering if it hurts having your head so far up your ass, as in your case

12/19/2005 7:29:41 PM

Everything the Nazis did they did because of two things, race and nationalism.

When Hitler pandered to religion (which was not often), he did so because the general population -- rather than the Nazi party -- was Christian.

12/19/2005 7:33:16 PM

obviously this has touched a nerve. i'll just say this.

religious fanatics, more specifically those who invoke violence in the name of religion, deserve all the wrath of the civilised world, and then some.

i have relatives that hold office with the BJP in India. they are moderate, but other party members are far right Hindu fanatics (yes, such a thing does sadly exist). those bastards deserve the worst too. i won't call out any other religious fanatics in this thread, just the ones in my own religious group.

12/19/2005 7:41:56 PM

and they followed him...so that makes them fanatics in my books....normally it wouldn't but for the sake of argument here in this discussion, it does.

i don't know why people keep using that
"touched a nerve here" cause its TWW and second its a online forum...if anyones nerves are touched then that is just pathetic.

[Edited on December 19, 2005 at 7:43 PM. Reason : fda]

12/19/2005 7:42:31 PM

Quote :

"and they followed him...so that makes them fanatics in my books....normally it wouldn't but for the sake of argument here in this discussion, it does. "

What the fuck does this mean? Explain yourself.

12/19/2005 8:02:33 PM

i just can't take TWW threads seriously...its just not possible.

12/19/2005 8:06:40 PM

Quote :

"What, now the History Channel is out? Tell me, people, exactly which sources are acceptable?"

Hate to say it, but I'd probably rank the History Channel well below wiki when it comes to quality of historical information.

I mean, they claimed pollaxes weighed fifteen pounds... you might as well look in the Player's Handbook...

[Edited on December 20, 2005 at 12:48 AM. Reason : /]

12/20/2005 12:48:14 AM

???

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. I'm not much for discounting a source just because of what it is, even though I do it from time to time out of laziness. If you want to argue with the sources presented, then offer your own stuff and make a case for why it is better.

12/20/2005 2:23:38 AM

Quote :

"Islam is the newest religion on earth. It is thus much more complex."

NEGATIVE, you have underestimated the BA'HAI

12/20/2005 2:31:02 AM

The History Channel's shows are meant to be entertaining, and because of that they'll omit or bias a lot of information. If you watch it on something you know nothing about, you won't notice it, but when you watch a show about something you know about, you will see it very clearly.

12/20/2005 2:32:58 AM

This is admittedly true, but I usually know something about whatever they were talking about...as was the case last night.

It also isn't as though they completely fabricate information. That is, I don't think they were lying about a Palestinian Arab insurgency directed primarily against Jewish immigrants prior to WWII, I don't think they were lying about the fact that the leader of that very insurgency attempted to drive the British out of Iraq and sought Nazi help for that cause, and I don't think they were lying when they said that the leader of that rebellion later went on to command his own fairly large unit within the SS.

It is also fairly well known that the Ba'ath party had its roots in naziism.

[Edited on December 20, 2005 at 2:37 AM. Reason : ]

12/20/2005 2:36:44 AM

errbbody hatin on the jews since god made them his chosen pple

12/20/2005 2:58:06 AM

wars have been breaking out since the dawn of man.

the real shit between Muslims and Christians began around the beginning of the state of Isreal.

I know this is brash and short, but I'm just way too tired and apathetic to get into it. Just go take a few classes that have anything to do with it.

12/20/2005 3:20:05 AM

crusades?

12/20/2005 3:25:26 AM

No I think he meant the real shit between Muslims and Jews.

Muslims have been killing christians for centuries.

12/20/2005 12:03:44 PM