Brutal. Is confidence that lacking in GM?

11/21/2005 2:23:33 PM

if they'd make something besides the corvette that isn't a piece of shit, then maybe it'd all be different

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 2:25 PM. Reason : *]

11/21/2005 2:25:49 PM

I could have sworn that I saw on the news this morning that their stock went up.

However, yahoo os showing me that it was up, but is back down.

11/21/2005 2:32:41 PM

ALSO:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10003987.shtml

Quote :

"GM parts supplier Delphi plans to axe 24,000 jobs: reduce hourly wage from $27 to $9; pay managers bonuses worth $90m"

11/21/2005 2:33:55 PM

This isn't a sign of financial strength at all.

I'd sell, too.

11/21/2005 2:36:53 PM

They are trying to bust up the unions

11/21/2005 2:48:50 PM

why they quit making a great pony car like the camaro and a great sport truck like the s10is just plain stupid. gm is full of bad desicions

11/21/2005 2:50:55 PM

hourly wages from 27-9.....well quality is going to go sky high

11/21/2005 2:52:27 PM

jesus christ

a 66% pay CUT?!?! but the managers still get 90 mil

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 2:58 PM. Reason : *]

11/21/2005 2:58:34 PM

Quote :

"if they'd make something besides the corvette that isn't a piece of shit, then maybe it'd all be different"

11/21/2005 3:01:49 PM

pay managers bonuses worth $90m

Disgusting

And yeah... this is what they get for making such awful products. Too bad the workers have to suffer for their bosses' failures.



[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 4:57 PM. Reason : .]

11/21/2005 4:56:38 PM

$27 for an hourly person! I'd make everyone management if that was the case. They don't need the people any more robots... GM is far from dead so don't worry, AVON says they have some very interesting stuff on the drawing boards, if they can get it to work. They'll be back.

11/21/2005 5:17:59 PM

Quote :

"AVON says they have some very interesting stuff on the drawing boards"

bigger SUVs?

more colors?

because I can't imagine them coming out with anything actually innovative.

11/21/2005 5:23:21 PM

Quote :

"why they quit making a great pony car like the camaro and a great sport truck like the s10is just plain stupid. gm is full of bad desicions"

yeah man why the hell did they ax cars that don't sell gm is a bunch of fucking morons

11/21/2005 5:36:08 PM

Quote :

"a 66% pay CUT?!?! but the managers still get 90 mil"

what are you a commie?

11/21/2005 6:25:52 PM

It costs a lot of money to get someone to stand in front of an oncoming train

11/21/2005 6:47:53 PM

Quote :

"because I can't imagine them coming out with anything actually innovative. "

The new Vette is pretty innovative. So is a lot of the tech in new Caddies nowadays. They need to focus on reliability and streamlining their product line.

11/21/2005 7:48:41 PM

Am I right in assuming the new Vette still has pushrods?

11/21/2005 8:15:08 PM

^Yes

11/21/2005 8:37:10 PM

What do you have against pushrods? Overhead cams on an engine with that much displacement just won't fit in a Vette chassis.

You're gonna find it hard to knock the Vette from a performance standpoint.

11/21/2005 8:44:26 PM

Here comes the hating cause the pushrod is "old tech."

11/21/2005 8:46:36 PM

Are they innovative?

11/21/2005 8:47:49 PM

Why change something that works damn well? Like I said, its really tough to argue with the performance of the LS7. Its powerful, efficient and reliable, which are the standards by which you measure an engine.

11/21/2005 8:56:01 PM

Quote :

"why they quit making... a great sport truck like the s10is just plain stupid."

sport truck? what the hell is that?

11/21/2005 8:58:20 PM

Unions are ruining GM

11/21/2005 8:58:25 PM

a fantastic motor in a car that will out run and out handle anything in its price range (or double) is pretty damn innovative.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 8:59 PM. Reason : asdf]

11/21/2005 8:59:23 PM

So, somebody tell me why the Jap automakers get away with paying their workers so much less here in the US than the american companies. Is it because their labor force isn't unionized? Can we blame this all on UAW?

11/21/2005 9:00:59 PM

no, you can blame it on the fact that americans don't make a fundamentally good product. unions, exchange rate, "unfair" trade -- everything else is wrong except the cars.

11/21/2005 9:12:36 PM

Quote :

"Unions are ruining GM"

yeah, it's the unions

11/21/2005 9:18:16 PM

Paying someone $25-30 an hour with full benefits and pretty much guaranteed job security for what essentially amounts to unskilled labor is not the fault of the cars. GM is a healthcare provider with a hobby of making cars.

What is wrong with GM cars?

11/21/2005 9:18:56 PM

GM makes some good cars, and some shitty cars. It is pretty silly of them to try to go for the "value" market when they pay more in labor costs than any other automaker in the world.

To an extent, they are also suffering from image problems based on reliability issues in older cars. Right now new American cars are more reliable than European cars, which is something that many people don't realize. But to restore confidence, they need to approach the standards set by the japs.

as I stated earlier:

Quote :

"They need to focus on reliability and streamlining their product line."

which means even more cutbacks as they focus on what makes them money and eliminate product lines that don't.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 9:22 PM. Reason : 1]

11/21/2005 9:20:00 PM

Unions keep wages artificially high, and I will be glad to see them busted up.

Where I work a painter (unionized, HS Diploma) makes $26/hr while an Engineering Technician (non-unionized, Bachelor's degree) makes $18/hr.

11/21/2005 9:21:21 PM

Look, stop trying to point the finger at any one thing. There is a reason the company is in huge trouble, its because all aspects are needing a severe rework from the compensation and benefits, to the cars...everything.

11/21/2005 9:23:00 PM

Quote :

"What is wrong with GM cars?"

Besides the fact that they're all bland as hell (vette excepted), they have the crappy build quality and reliability.

I can't think of anything right with them.

11/21/2005 9:25:29 PM

Have you seen their new products?

11/21/2005 9:28:33 PM

have you read anything on this?

they just cant keep up this capacity while producing all of these massive cars w/ high production costs.

people need a good wage more than you need another suburban.

11/21/2005 9:31:35 PM

Are you referring to the new Pontiacs and Caddies? They're alright, relative to their predecessors.

Not relative to anything made my the Japanese manufacturers, or even Ford or Chrysler.

Chevy, Buick, and Saab are all producing total crap.

11/21/2005 9:33:02 PM

^eh, Buick makes some of the most reliable cars on the road nowadays. Just because its not marketed for you doesn't mean its crap.

11/21/2005 9:35:25 PM

But do Buicks hold a candle to a Lexus IS300? A Toyota Avalon? Acura RL? Chrysler 300? Ford Five Hundred? Lincoln Zephyr, Mercury Milan?

This is just off the top of my head.

Some GM products aren't awful. But I can't think of a single one that excels in its area (except the vette)

11/21/2005 9:41:34 PM

dont you watch Cramer
GM will get you into the house of pain

11/21/2005 9:42:44 PM

Thats partially because GM seems to always go for the value sell. Their cars are lower-priced than comparable products, which obviously affects quality. Its what happens when you let the bean-counters run the company instead of engineers and/or people who understand the value of brand-name.



[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 9:48 PM. Reason : 2]

11/21/2005 9:47:22 PM

Quote :

"GM announces job cuts and the stock still falls?"

I can see that. Cut that many jobs and make families lose their means of support all while the suits get their millions in bonuses. People might not want to buy GM irreguardless of how good or how bad their products are after that kind of a move.

Quote :

" a fantastic motor in a car that will out run and out handle anything in its price range (or double) is pretty damn innovative."

Huh, and I thought that most people drove cars so they could get from point A to point B. I, along with most people that are on the road, am to busy driving to work to worry about out running and out handling anything on the road in my price range. In fact I'm looking for a vehicle with the lowest price range and highest gas mileage, even at the expense of power. Try that market out. I guess the out run, out perform market is always out there though. Too bad they have things like stoplights, speed limits, and laws agains racing, otherwise those things might have been useful.

11/21/2005 9:49:14 PM

Quote :

"Cut that many jobs and make families lose their means of support all while the suits get their millions in bonuses. People might not want to buy GM irreguardless of how good or how bad their products are after that kind of a move. "

Sorry, the stock market doesn't work like this. Nobody gives a shit about the ethics of a particular business, as long as it's moving in the right direction. And cost-cutting is always a step in the right direction.

11/21/2005 9:52:48 PM

^That's all fine and well. If enough people care about the poor ethics of a company it will begin to take a toll on their sales, which is revenue-cutting.

I thought that was one of the reasons Ben & Jerry's did so well. They were always into PR work for the environment. People took notice and their sales increased as a result. Admitidly I don't know how/if it effected their stock (or even if they are public for that matter). You'd think that decisions that could potentially hurt sales would lower stock prices based on lower expected future earnings. Go figure. I'd expect the stock to go down a little while the heat of knee-jerk reaction is high, then go back up as people forget about the news.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 9:59 PM. Reason : -]

11/21/2005 9:58:06 PM

Quote :

"Thats partially because GM seems to always go for the value sell. Their cars are lower-priced than comparable products, which obviously affects quality. Its what happens when you let the bean-counters run the company instead of engineers and/or people who understand the value of brand-name."

Agreed.

The guys from Ward's have been saying this for as long as I've been reading it. It seems like common sense, but whatever.

Also, this is what they get for putting all their eggs into the SUV market.

11/21/2005 10:01:42 PM

^^for every company you name that prospered because of good ethics, I can name 10 that prospered from bad ethics and/or shady deals. You're on the losing side of this argument.

Microsoft comes to mind as an obvious example.

11/21/2005 10:07:02 PM

Quote :

"Huh, and I thought that most people drove cars so they could get from point A to point B. I, along with most people that are on the road, am to busy driving to work to worry about out running and out handling anything on the road in my price range. In fact I'm looking for a vehicle with the lowest price range and highest gas mileage, even at the expense of power. Try that market out. I guess the out run, out perform market is always out there though. Too bad they have things like stoplights, speed limits, and laws agains racing, otherwise those things might have been useful. "

Yessir, right over here we have the Chevy Cavalier, and the Pontiac sunfire.

Both of which suck complete ass compared to a civic or a corrola. But who cares.

BTW, in the corner we have a Corvette that will no doubt drain your wallet but leave you with a smile on your face every time you step in to the garage.

(and yes, there are a ton of people that buy a car because it makes them happy. I'm one of them)

11/21/2005 10:10:06 PM

Quote :

"You're on the losing side of this argument."

So we're arguing? Just saying that this news was like the final nail in the coffin against GM cars for me. I'm sure there are other people out there that think the same way... but it isn't like I/they would have bought GM before the news.

Quote :

"for every company you name that prospered because of good ethics, I can name 10 that prospered from bad ethics and/or shady deals"

I don't doubt that. Still takes a company that can compete. GM may have wanted to invest in a competitive product line first. Maybe the layoffs will free up enough money to do that?

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 10:16 PM. Reason : -]

11/21/2005 10:16:01 PM

Quote :

"I, along with most people that are on the road, am to busy driving to work to worry about out running and out handling anything on the road in my price range. In fact I'm looking for a vehicle with the lowest price range and highest gas mileage, even at the expense of power. Try that market out."

That market buys used cars.

11/21/2005 10:16:25 PM

Quote :

"I can see that. Cut that many jobs and make families lose their means of support all while the suits get their millions in bonuses. People might not want to buy GM irreguardless of how good or how bad their products are after that kind of a move."

Doesn't GM have some of the least paid execs? Cutting a few million from a company that is losing billions is not going to help. Cutting a workforce that does little more than suck the life out of them is a step in the right direction.

Piss and moan all you want to about people losing their jobs. When their unions are a big part of their unemployment, AND they are getting paid while being laid off, I have a hard time finding sympathy for them. How many paycuts are the union reps taking?

11/21/2005 10:16:59 PM