I still like the guy

more than O'Brien and O'Cain

11/4/2017 8:08:39 PM

Didn't cry in the postgame interview.

+1

11/4/2017 8:13:41 PM

except clemson's not down this year. they might seem down because they aren't above alabama level. they are #4 in the country. thats not down.

We are so good that they look normal against us and our fans lose perspective. DD's progress has been so significant that people forgot what nc state is.

11/4/2017 8:20:11 PM

If you don't think 7-5 is VERY likely, you're delusional. That is not improvement. Not when FSU sucks and UL is down.

11/4/2017 8:26:32 PM

You act like we have 3 games left against top 5 teams. Sure they are tough games, but until we lose, stop acting like losing is likely.

11/4/2017 8:27:46 PM

Still credible. Players were ready to play, game plan was solid, no boneheaded decisions. Tons of bad breaks and still had a chance.

I do wonder if we would have scored there at the end, if we would have gone for two. Screw it, I would have

11/4/2017 8:30:29 PM

credible +1

11/4/2017 8:37:52 PM

bambard would have thrown a jumppass

11/4/2017 8:38:48 PM

Quote :

"do wonder if we would have scored there at the end, if we would have gone for two. Screw it, I would have"

He showed his confidence in the team getting 2 yards

Quote :

"an't trust these assholes to pick up one fucking yard"

That's crazy to me. Most of the game our offense was killing them.

[Edited on November 4, 2017 at 8:40 PM. Reason : Ee]

11/4/2017 8:39:30 PM

Quote :

"Players were ready to play, game plan was solid, no boneheaded decisions. Tons of bad breaks and still had a chance."

This is a good point. All of that and still not good enough to win. This is a high water mark. Buckle up for next year.

11/4/2017 8:42:26 PM

take out the wildcat and we prolly win by 2 scores.

11/4/2017 8:42:30 PM

It is really insane to me how often they take the ball out of Finley's hands

It'd be one thing if this was The Ginger mad that he couldn't play his giraffe-son or we were one of those shitty SEC teams built on a running game that brought in a grad transfer mercenary, but this is a guy that's been in the program and is the OC's fucking guy. Why have we NOT handed him the keys??

11/5/2017 12:04:05 AM

i think its a philosophy of playing tight to limit turnovers. i think thats why we saw such a long interception streak. it ends up limiting our touchdowns. those back to back passes to harmon in coverage or that pass to myers that got overturned or the pass to jaysam that was broken up should have been the plays called on every 2nd and 3rd and goal. we took away all of our opportunities.


Its almost like our coaching staff is so cocky going into these last 2 games that they are saying "as long as we don't turn it over, they can't beat us"

[Edited on November 5, 2017 at 12:12 AM. Reason : you have to seize this kinda game by the throat.]

11/5/2017 12:10:48 AM

^^I mean, I hate the Wildcat too -- but Finley threw 50 passes this game. We weren't exactly neutering him.

11/5/2017 12:13:08 AM

Quote :

"I'll live the rest of my life wondering why he kicked on 4th and goal at the 2. You don't trust your offense to get 2 but you trust them to get 60-80 in under 2 minutes??"

Down 10 you have to take the points. You need 2 scores anyways. Kicking the fg there was the right choice. The onside kick was not.

11/5/2017 7:41:23 AM

^I think it was a poorly executed onside kick, but I don't mind the call at all. You give two opportunities to get the ball back instead of one. IMO -- if we kick it deep and Clemson gets just one first down, they ice the game. Most of us would be wishing we would've tried an onsides kick.

Only thing I would've done differently is gone for it on 4th down from the 50. I think we could've picked it up and kept the momentum. But it certainly wasn't dumb to punt it there either.

11/5/2017 9:55:03 AM

Nope. That's the conservative way to go that ignores logic not to mention the now cliche you play to win the fucking game not to tie. You don't upset top teams by being conservative, you have to take chances. Take Dabo going for it 4th and 5 in our territory. He had confidence in his offense and changed the game.

Being down 3 that last drive completely changes the dynamics. It's much easier to get back into FG position then to get back to the 2 yard line.

Do you think Clemson wanted us to kick the FG or go for the TD there?

[Edited on November 5, 2017 at 10:00 AM. Reason : Not to mention if Bambard had shanked it again.... ]

11/5/2017 9:56:08 AM

And being down 10 and Clemson with the ball ends the game.

You take the points there, it's always the right call.

11/5/2017 10:49:50 AM

If you can't get 2 yards the game is over anyway

We had to go for 4th and 10 twice next drive


Im curious what you would have said if we had scored the td and Doeren went for 2

[Edited on November 5, 2017 at 11:13 AM. Reason : E]

11/5/2017 11:09:25 AM

Quote :

"It's much easier to get back into FG position then to get back to the 2 yard line. "

Good thing you can score TDs from more than 2 yards out

11/5/2017 11:24:47 AM

the problem is that we didnt play like we needed to score until we were down 10. the pace and sense of urgency of that drive is what we need for an entire game.

we completed long passed on a prevent defense yet refuse to call diverse route lengths on single coverage for most drives. when we do, we score

11/5/2017 11:34:55 AM

Quote :

"Good thing you can score TDs from more than 2 yards out"

You have to get to the 2 yard line to score a TD. Catching a ball in the end zone counts as getting closer than the 2 yard line, obviously.

If we get the ball at opposite 20 needing 7, we have to go 80 yards. If we need 3, we have to go 50-80 depending on how confident Doeren was in his kickers that day. And if you aren't at all confident, you still have the option to go for the full 80. But if you have no confidence in the kicker that justs adds to not kicking from the right hash

11/5/2017 11:49:29 AM

Quote :

"You have to get to the 2 yard line to score a TD."

The ball has to travel past the 2 yard line during a made field goal attempt, too!

11/5/2017 11:59:41 AM

Ok next time we kick a 30 yard fg let's add 30 yards to our offensive total since we moved the ball 30 yards and it's all the same under your dumb logic

11/5/2017 12:10:01 PM

You need a TD and a FG no matter which one you get first. It's not that difficult. Criticize the clock management all you want, not the decision to go for the 3 before the 7.

If we go for the TD and get stopped, he's an idiot for not taking the 3 points

[Edited on November 5, 2017 at 12:15 PM. Reason : .]

11/5/2017 12:13:42 PM

The decision doesn't exist in a vacuum.

4th and goal from the 20, 4th and maybe 5 or more from farther out fine, take the FG. 4th and goal from the 2 you'll have to get the td, even more so as the underdog

11/5/2017 12:16:59 PM

4th and goal from the 2, against arguably the best defensive line in the country

11/5/2017 12:23:38 PM

what if we got the td first... setting up a potential 39yd fg to tie
?

11/5/2017 12:30:53 PM

^^you're joking right? We had 450 yards of offense at that point and still needed at least another 30.

11/5/2017 1:17:05 PM

Quote :

""I'll live the rest of my life wondering why he kicked on 4th and goal at the 2. You don't trust your offense to get 2 but you trust them to get 60-80 in under 2 minutes??""

Quote :

"Down 10 you have to take the points. You need 2 scores anyways. Kicking the fg there was the right choice. The onside kick was not."

There's valid logic to both sides:

Conventional wisdom says you take the FG to extend the game. You go for the TD and fail, game's over. However, you are now demanding that your offense travel more total yards to convert a TD that you still must score. If, however, you go for the TD and convert, you could potentially be trying to convert from a closer position than you'll get on your next opportunity and will be able to kick a field goal to tie from 4th and 15 from the 30 instead of trying to convert a 1st down from 4th and 15 from the 30 (while still needing a TD afterward).


The one thing that bother's me about Doeren is his inconsistency at playing the odds. He'll go for it on 4th down sometimes, and other times he'll punt like he did on 4th and 2 on the 50 (while running the play prior). Either go into third down's knowing that you're in 4 down territory or don't. He claims he punted because he thought it was important to flip the field position (which is a valid reason, imo, because Clemson was pinning us deep the few drives prior). But he then undermines that logic by not opting to go for the TD on 4th and short in the redzone. He'll also get cute with the onside kick-off at odd times. The last on-side kick would have been fine if he had just lined up in onside formation and kicked a jump ball. Give your team the best chance at recovering instead of expecting your kicker to recover his own kick. Instead you run a low conversion onside play and force your offense to march down the field from much further out (again undermining the previous field position argument) when you can't recover the onside kick.

So what is it? Is he the mad-genius river boat gambler who plays on momentum, or the cautious conservative coach who always plays the odds? Pick one.

11/5/2017 1:32:33 PM

Quote :

"If you can't get 2 yards the game is over anyway"

The game is definitely over if you go for it and fail (which is likely given our terrible red zone playcalling) or you make the game a one possession game.

There was a lot of shitty coaching (that damn naked bootleg that ran damn near a minute off the clock), but kicking was 100% the correct call.

11/5/2017 1:42:09 PM

Kicking on 4th and goal down 10: Right call

Taking 5 minutes to drive down the field with 6:30 left down 10: Wrong call

Onside kick after taking 5 minutes down 10: Ok call

Running the surprise onside kick kicker squib when the opponent has their entire team ready: Wrong call

Going for 2 if we had scored: Probably the right call

11/5/2017 1:48:10 PM

Quote :

"Kicking on 4th and goal down 10: Right call"

Quote :

"Going for 2 if we had scored: Probably the right call"

Those 2 are identical logic. One chance to get 2 yards. If you go, you're trying for the win. If you miss, game over. If you kick its the conservative, conventional wisdom and, I guess, most people are fine with it.

Quote :

"which is likely given our terrible red zone playcalling"

3/4 redzone tds to that point. The 4th was the blatant no call DPI (at least in stadium, maybe that was a better call on tv)

[Edited on November 5, 2017 at 2:24 PM. Reason : A]

11/5/2017 2:20:34 PM

I'm referring to the entire season.

11/5/2017 2:33:05 PM

I would hope our coaches would make adjustments in season

Did you consider our redzone success yesterday against "arguably the best dline in the country" (not your words I know) a result of possible adjustments or pure luck?

But again if we can't score in the redzone, wouldn't you want to try from as close as possible? We would still most likely have to score in the redzone next drive right?


I haven't even mentioned did anyone actually have confidence in Bambard even from that close? In the stadium I assumed it was wise and I still had little confidence...

[Edited on November 5, 2017 at 3:42 PM. Reason : . ]

11/5/2017 3:40:50 PM

11/5/2017 3:58:49 PM

Lol that might have hit harder coming from someone that wasn't arguing with me

11/5/2017 4:00:18 PM

I'm happy to criticize Doeren for things that deserve criticism, I don't think this is one of them. Agree to disagree.

11/5/2017 4:06:36 PM

Quote :

"Those 2 are identical logic. One chance to get 2 yards. If you go, you're trying for the win. If you miss, game over. If you kick its the conservative, conventional wisdom and, I guess, most people are fine with it."

2 point is win vs lose, with the calculation that we're likely to lose in OT

going for it when youre down 10 is dumb. it only entered the realm of possible moves because our kicker sucks and we took forever on the drive

11/5/2017 4:28:06 PM

You can't just say "it's dumb" and act like you when the argument. I posted reasoning. With that much time going on 4th and goal at the 2 carries an identical decision chart to going for 2 after a final TD.

I feel like I'm trying to give reasoned arguments for my thinking and people that disagree say "no that's wrong bc I say so."

Wait that's what Earl always claims am I the new Earl?

11/5/2017 4:41:25 PM

It's dumb because you should take the points and delay the risky play until you have to. Same reason why if you're down 15 points, you wait until the 2nd TD to go for 2.

11/5/2017 4:50:16 PM

But that can also the wrong play if you think about it beyond conventional wisdom.

Say you score with 8 left now you're down by 9 so you kick to be down by 8, you kick it's away and the other teams takes 5 off the clock, so you go down and score with 20 second left and miss the 2 pt conversion. Game over.

Conversely you go for 2 early and miss, now you know you need 2 scores and can manage the rest of the game, whether that means immediately onside kicking or being more aware of the clock when you get the ball back.

11/5/2017 4:56:36 PM

a lotta cred points on the line for DD in the next 3 games. refocus the team and we can still have a historic (by State standards) season. let the Clemson and ND losses carryover and we can stumble to a 5-3 or 4-4 finish (although i don't see us losing to UNC). let's take care of business against lesser opponents and finish strong.

11/6/2017 10:51:29 AM

Doeren didnt miss the tackles on the punt return. Doeren didnt overthrow our receiver.

Doeren did call the punt on 4th and 1 from inside the 50 in the 4th qtr.

11/6/2017 10:56:27 AM

Our best win to date is Syracuse or Louisville. Take your pick, their both at the bottom of our division. So that's not really saying much at all. The only team we've lost to that is actually better than us is Notre Dame.

Going forward, if we can win out it'll be a good season. Is a good season the best we can achieve when we're stacked with senior starters?

11/6/2017 11:54:37 AM

Yes

11/6/2017 12:00:52 PM

7-1 in the acc is a goddamn great season

11/6/2017 12:21:13 PM

Yep and who knows maybe FSU decides this is their super bowl now and helps us out

11/6/2017 12:29:14 PM

Minus credibility bc we're gonna have too here about the fucking laptop for the next 10 years

11/6/2017 12:43:15 PM

set em up

11/7/2017 12:36:49 PM