whenever that White Walker shows up in an episode, it's an all-time ep

5/22/2016 11:12:23 PM

That death rivals any on the show.

How deep it was, seeing past and present in the same moment.

Unreal. So good.

5/22/2016 11:18:58 PM

omg

5/22/2016 11:40:34 PM

so the little people created the Walkers as a weapon...now its out of control and fucking with everybody.

5/23/2016 12:13:57 AM

damn that was good. Honestly, even though we're beyond the books, that was the first episode that really surprised me this season.

5/23/2016 12:25:29 AM

I got the feeling that if Ser Friendzone ever makes it back with the cure, he may not be Ser Friendzone much longer.

But, since it's GoT, he probably dies horribly in the next few episodes.

5/23/2016 12:29:31 AM

Fuck man, that was right in the feels.

5/23/2016 1:04:27 AM

woke up this morning hearing Hold The Door in my head

5/23/2016 8:33:05 AM

Is Bran's Mark still there?

Will it be the device that brings down the wall allowing the others to get past it?

Did Bran actually warg into past Hodor to control future Hodor? Accidentally or did he know what he was doing? Did past Hodor experience his future death? Was Hodor so scared because he knew how he died?

5/23/2016 9:14:39 AM

only two direwolves left if you believe Shaggydog is dead

I wonder how Bran will change now that both of his warg/spirit animals are dead. Something has to intervene because I'm not sure how Meera can drag him away from the walker horde by herself. I'm pretty convinced that Bran will be able to walk again at some point as well. Maybe Coldhands will save the day and we'll learn more about who he is.

Can't wait to see shit go down with the Sparrows, although I don't think it's going to be as easy as marching a bunch of Tyrells up and slaughtering everyone. Even if that's the case, it would probably cause a popular uprising.

5/23/2016 9:17:30 AM

Maybe Bran will still be able to warg into white Hodor and dragon glass the white walkers in the back.

5/23/2016 9:25:09 AM

^^We pretty much already know who he is, he's Ned's brother.

5/23/2016 10:11:10 AM

^ Martin specifically said he wasn't Brendan in notes during the writing process.

In case anyone missed it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Jsj9V_Aqg

5/23/2016 10:34:37 AM

I got a final season of Lost vibe that I didn't really like. Convoluted cause/effect time travel is not really what I was hoping for in Game of Thrones.

I do think Benjen will be Coldhands in the show, and he will show up to save Bran/Meera.

5/23/2016 12:11:05 PM

Really wish the direwolf could have made it out of the tree. Hate seeing those guys die.

5/23/2016 12:42:02 PM

Ya if by Coldhands you mean the nights king, wasn't he made hundreds of years ago? How could that be Ned's brother?

Wait or is Coldhands some spoiler thing from the books in which case I don't want to know

[Edited on May 23, 2016 at 12:47 PM. Reason : A]

Also I might be the only one who didn't love last nights show. The children just look super lame, as do the fast zombies. For some reason they become comical when they run/crawl and in the tunnel, like Evil Dead style cackles. To me they are more menacing as a lumbering army.

[Edited on May 23, 2016 at 12:49 PM. Reason : Aaaaaaaaaaaa]

5/23/2016 12:46:08 PM

Coldhands is a different character that does not appear in the show

5/23/2016 12:50:14 PM

^^I dunno man, maybe it was just the tunnel venue, because I though they were pretty damn menacing during the battle at Hardhome last season.

5/23/2016 1:12:34 PM

The Bran/Wyllis situation confuses me the more I think about it.

1. Bran visions to Winterfell and is watching Brandon say goodbye to Ned
2. Bran in real life is being dragged out by Meera
3. Meera shouts to Bran to control Hodor (who is scared in the corner)
4. Bran sees Wyllis in his vision while warging into Hodor in the present
5. Meera shouts at Hodor to hold the door and Bran tells Wyllis in the vision

So did Bran tell warg into Wyllis by accident or on purpose when trying to control Hodor? Did Bran actually say anything or was it Meera's voice that Wyllis heard? Was Hodor his own person when he died or still being controlled?

None of this probably matters but Im trying to wrap my head around what the situation tells about warging, Bran's ability to affect the past, and whether Hodor knew this would happen from childhood.

[Edited on May 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM. Reason : a]

5/23/2016 1:26:58 PM

^It seemed more like they mentally and physically died in unison. Bran was warged through Willis to warg Hodor, so he was both of them at the "once".

So while Hodor was physically dying in the present, I believe Willis was mentally dying in the past. I think he felt the pain Hodor felt as he was dying and heard the screaming to hold the door. Once Bran was done warging, he was basically just a shell of himself. Almost like Willis had a lobotomy and was just a shell of himself and only could say "Hodor" because of residuals from the mental trauma. It's probably the same reason he shutdown anytime there was violence or danger, probably just residual effects of remembering being torn apart.

Bran clearly can cause things to happen in the past, just seems like he can only cause things to happen that have already happened. Which opens up a ton of possibilities if he continues to warg back in time. Basically making Bran a lesser version of The Doctor.

[Edited on May 23, 2016 at 2:21 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2016 2:19:14 PM

Quote :

"For some reason they become comical when they run/crawl and in the tunnel, like Evil Dead style cackles. To me they are more menacing as a lumbering army. "

I agree. I think it's stupid to have them crawling on the walls/ceiling as that's obviously going to be a slower way to move than just staying on the ground.

I also thought that the direwolves were, in general, smarter than that. Any reasonable creature isn't going to attack a foe numbering 10+. Animals aren't suicidal like that. Pretty frustrating for the wolf to have "been there" the whole time but when we actually see him do something he dies immediately. I mean, come on...

5/23/2016 2:22:21 PM

Yeah Coldhands was this guy that rode a big elk and saved Sam/Gilly and then later helped Bran and company get to the tree. He was basically like a good zombie if that makes sense and was strongly implied he was a former brother of the watch. GRRM said, and his edited manuscripts show it is not Benjen Stark.

I don't see how else Bran and Meera get helped out there unless it is Coldhands, real Benjen, or the Children of the Forest.

And I agree with the comment about the last season of Lost - time conundrums are a slippery slope. Could explain why GRRM is having so much trouble finishing the book.

5/23/2016 2:29:32 PM

when fictional material not initially involving time travel introduces time travel elements, it's an obvious indicator that the creators are out of ideas.

5/23/2016 2:33:08 PM

Quote :

"I also thought that the direwolves were, in general, smarter than that. Any reasonable creature isn't going to attack a foe numbering 10+. Animals aren't suicidal like that. "

The direwolves are loyal to their Stark owners...to the death obviously. Summer was protecting/sacrificing Bran. Not far-fetched at all. Sucks that he/she died...but it bought Bran more time to escape.

Quote :

" I think it's stupid to have them crawling on the walls/ceiling as that's obviously going to be a slower way to move than just staying on the ground."

I see it as they're all trying to get to Bran as fast a possible. Instead of waiting behind other zombies, they're going around/above/beside/whatever. They're not exactly a trained army...they're blood-thirsty frozen zombies. To you it might seem slower, but to them, it's faster than waiting behind the other zombies.

5/23/2016 2:40:16 PM

I don't see how the time travel thing is a conundrum or a bad thing. If anything HBO is just showing us events that happened in the prequels to inform the current story line. Something GRRM does in the books as well, of course without someone jumping back in time to view them.

Also the raven has already said the ink is dry and no one can change the past. Bran isn't changing anything he is just reliving them for some grand purpose yet to be revealed I believe.

5/23/2016 2:41:42 PM

Quote :

"So while Hodor was physically dying in the present, I believe Willis was mentally dying in the past. I think he felt the pain Hodor felt as he was dying and heard the screaming to hold the door. Once Bran was done warging, he was basically just a shell of himself. Almost like Willis had a lobotomy and was just a shell of himself and only could say "Hodor" because of residuals from the mental trauma. It's probably the same reason he shutdown anytime there was violence or danger, probably just residual effects of remembering being torn apart."

This makes sense. Thanks.

5/23/2016 2:51:10 PM

^ Isn't the simpler explanation just a time travel causality loop/paradox? Hodor became "Hodor" because Bran was trying to instill in him to "hold the door" from an early age, and this was just the completion of the loop.

^^^^ according to Reddit, GRRM wrote that part

[Edited on May 23, 2016 at 3:09 PM. Reason : ]

5/23/2016 3:08:58 PM

Regarding the ink already being dry idea

Hodor can only say "Hodor" because Bran was in his mind from the future. Thus, Bran has changed the past

5/23/2016 3:27:29 PM

Quote :

"Isn't the simpler explanation just a time travel causality loop/paradox? Hodor became "Hodor" because Bran was trying to instill in him to "hold the door" from an early age, and this was just the completion of the loop."

Wait, so you're saying that he didn't warg to Hodor in the present, but in fact warged into Willis while in the flashback and just nuked his brain intentionally? I guess I preferred to see it as an unintentional consequence of warging to present Hodor through Willis, almost like a conduit.

If it was an intentional re-programming of Willis by Bran...then that's cold blooded.

5/23/2016 3:38:37 PM

Quote :

"when fictional material not initially involving time travel introduces time travel elements, it's an obvious indicator that the creators are out of ideas."

They aren't just introducing it now though! Hodor has named Hodor since the first season (and book). They knew (or at least GRRM knew) that it was his destiny to hold the door and that this scene would be happening at some point in the future.

Also, sidenote, but does Bran need to be touching the roots of that weirwood tree to be able to go back in time?

5/23/2016 3:55:30 PM

Well he was still back in time a they ran away. But maybe he needs a tree to initiate.

5/23/2016 4:04:42 PM

So how many of the bad-ass White Walkers are there?? Jon has killed one and now Meera killed one.

Three left?

5/23/2016 4:09:10 PM

Quote :

"Wait, so you're saying that he didn't warg to Hodor in the present, but in fact warged into Willis while in the flashback and just nuked his brain intentionally? I guess I preferred to see it as an unintentional consequence of warging to present Hodor through Willis, almost like a conduit. If it was an intentional re-programming of Willis by Bran...then that's cold blooded."

I think it was unintentional as you described it. He was in the past and tried to warg into present-day Hodor, which had unintentional consequences on Hodor/Wyllis.

[Edited on May 23, 2016 at 4:24 PM. Reason : quote]

5/23/2016 4:23:43 PM

Quote :

" Regarding the ink already being dry idea Hodor can only say "Hodor" because Bran was in his mind from the future. Thus, Bran has changed the past "

But that event had already occured, he didn't change the past. He was part of it. He can't change his present because everything he will do in the past has already occurred

5/23/2016 4:24:14 PM

The only way that argument makes sense is if the ink of both the past AND the future has dried, meaning everything in the past and present already reflects everything that's going to happen in the future. So does anyone actually have a choice in their actions? Was there ever a possibility Bran WASN'T going to warg into Hodor to hold the door?

5/23/2016 4:34:17 PM

I think there is a decent chance they escape because the Night's King wants to let them escape. Remember they were able to break the seal into the where they were hiding because of Bran being marked, perhaps this will also help break the magic that is keeping them from taking the wall down. If they let him escape they know he will flee to the wall, then they can break through.

5/23/2016 4:49:42 PM

Quote :

"I think it was unintentional as you described it. He was in the past and tried to warg into present-day Hodor, which had unintentional consequences on Hodor/Wyllis."

That's how I interpreted it as well, that Bran was doing two things at once. He was in the past-vision thing AND he warged into Hodor. That created a "bridge" of sorts between the two realities and that is what inflicted the trauma on Wyllis.

It was pretty clear to me that this was unintentional by Bran. He was heartbroken as he watched watched Wyllis have the "seizure" and I assume he felt guilt now that he understands that the resultant Hodor is all his fault.

[Edited on May 23, 2016 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2016 4:54:12 PM

Quote :

"The only way that argument makes sense is if the ink of both the past AND the future has dried, meaning everything in the past and present already reflects everything that's going to happen in the future. So does anyone actually have a choice in their actions? Was there ever a possibility Bran WASN'T going to warg into Hodor to hold the door?"

Yep, that's pretty much how it works. Bran can't see the future that we know of, so anything he does he may perceive as trying to shape the future. But it's already decided, he just doesn't know how it goes

5/23/2016 5:19:41 PM

didn't he have dreams of the tree? that was in his future. Jojen definitely could see the future and Bran is supposed to be the most powerful warg/greenseer ever

5/23/2016 5:39:30 PM

That just cements that the future is also written, Jojen couldn't change his death

5/23/2016 6:07:55 PM

Quote :

"so the little people created the Walkers as a weapon...now its out of control and fucking with everybody. "

alt shift x has a great video on how they came to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih_ZAGCfMY0

5/23/2016 7:12:12 PM

Quote :

", because I though they were pretty damn menacing during the battle at Hardhome last season"

yea i agree, that was great, but even then a couple bits had the same effect for me. Maybe its the more run down skeletons, its hard to make a skeleton run w/out it looking funny.

like when the children come at the that female wildling chief, the skeleton child looks creepy when they first show them standing, but then as soon as it moves it loses some.

I know i'm in the extreme minority of this opinion.

Also the children just look like elves and its hard to make elves look...not lame

5/23/2016 10:10:06 PM

also, children of the forest seem lame to me. I know their power has faded over time and their numbers have shrunk blah blah blah, but you can create beings capable of manipulating cold, transforming babies into others, raise and control the dead, but all you've got now is throwing pine cone bombs now?

5/23/2016 11:01:50 PM

All visions of the future are not visions of the future. They were visions given to jojen by the 3 eyed raven. He was directing them where to go because he had to train bran

5/24/2016 7:35:17 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9ywoXdFphE

Watched it again last night.

Definitely looks like Bran was told to warg into Hodor while in the vision/past. While in the vision Bran somehow figured out how to warg into Hodor/Wylis (Which Bran did without any evidence of trying, just like he willed it to happen with no effort). Hodor gets up and starts getting Bran out of there. No affect on past hodor/wylis. But when they get to the door the warg white eyes flash in past hodor/wylis with no change to present hodor. Why does past Hodor/Wylis collapse? Bran was already warging present Hodor through the past. Nothing changed. Present hodor isnt dying, hes just struggling to hold the door. He gets scratched but hes HUGE. He isnt close to death at all.

Why does past hodor collapse, he was doing fine. The assumption is his mind cant take the warging temporal loop going on, but did it take time for past hodor to feel it?

Maybe its just a matter of how they chose to film it. And the 'correct' way to show it would be that past hodor collapses as soon as Bran takes over. But that wouldn't be as dramatic to have him on the ground for so long.

[Edited on May 24, 2016 at 10:36 AM. Reason : fsd]

5/24/2016 10:33:53 AM

I think you are overthinking it

5/24/2016 10:44:16 AM

Quote :

"bran can affect people in the the past - and thereby change the future....? /endgame for yhe walkers?"

Quote :

"But he's not really changing the past. Those events occured the same way they always did. It's a closed loop, as the 3 eyed Raven said, "the ink is dry""

After a few days to think about this - I dont think the Raven told him the whole truth. Not saying that 'the ink is dry' is wrong, but that may not apply to people like Bran. Why else would he have said of himself and the children in the tree when Bran asked him what they've been doing all these years: "we've been waiting here for you" ?

I think that Bran has the rare gift of seeing/being in the past - just like the 3 eyed raven. But he's the first of their kind to ALSO be a warg - which means he can not only go back into the past, but can also assert his self onto others in those prior times. Therefore, he can affect the future somehow - regardless of the saying about dry ink for normal past seers like the 3eyed raven.

The fact that he brainwarped poor hodor for his entire life leading up to the 'hold the door' scene is proof of this imho. Causality requires this - unless GRRM has abandoned it entirely. Hodor's last moment of life somehow defined his entire past up to the point where Bran warged him in the courtyard.

5/24/2016 10:24:50 PM

Here's what I think is maybe the most important takeaway regarding what we've seen about the time travel change.

Whether or not Bran can or cannot change the past is irrelevant. By virtue of us only ever seeing Willis say "Hodor", that means that everything we currently know about the GOT world is the way it is due to any and all of Bran's possible actions. In other words, Bran can't go back in time and save Ned from being beheaded, because if he could than we would never have seen him get beheaded, just like we've never gotten to see Willis say anything other than "Hodor" as an adult. If anything in the world we know changes due to Bran's action, than they will have broken that rule.

[Edited on May 25, 2016 at 10:52 AM. Reason : asdf]

5/25/2016 10:25:53 AM

Including Bran the Builder making the wall...

5/25/2016 10:34:45 AM

Perhaps he travels randomly throughout the past until he gains some kind of control?

5/25/2016 11:48:38 AM