A lot of scholarships rely heavily on the PSAT.

Last I heard 6/7 of your education was subsidized.

10/27/2006 8:03:07 PM

Last I heard 6/7 is > 50%

But that's just math

Also, most of the ones I applied for didn't even ask for PSAT scores.

My sister was Saluditorian of our high school and she got no scholarships as well.
__

Does anyone have the figures on how much the government pays for our college education? And is it broken down so that all financial aid isn't lumped in and counted in the per student cost?

Because that wouldn't give me a good estimate of how much the state paid for mine

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 8:10 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2006 8:06:00 PM

Quote :

"Your opinion doesnt matter, nor should you have a say, in anything that goes on at campus anymore"

You would make a terrible alumni affairs representative. Look up how much the alumni giving rate was for 2004 on NCSU's website. Hint: It was more than $100 million.

bg, I'm not saying I disagree with your arguments, nor am I saying I agree, but um, they are somewhat irrelevant. Arguing the existence of a center will lead nowhere, because it's going to happen, one way or another. This apparently has had a lot of thought and effort put into it by a decently-sized committee ... if you really want to make a difference, I would recommend lending suggestions their direction, not here. Going after the funding source for the center is welcome, so long as you can provide specific, realistic, and fast (less than 5 years) alternatives for funding other than student fees. Note: Saying "private funding" by itself doesn't cut it, sorry.

10/27/2006 8:10:23 PM

I see what you're saying, but I don't see why it would be up to me and those that oppose the wasteful spending to come up with ways to fund the center. I do see your point that if I want something done about it, TWW isn't the best place to argue my point.

Quote :

"This apparently has had a lot of thought and effort put into it by a decently-sized committee"

Lots of stupid stuff comes from large committees, lol

I think what's more important to me is that people don't treat opposing ideas as bigots simply because they don't agree. Some people are bigots and shouldn't be tolerated, but others just want funding to be spent responsibly and don't think this counts. It isn't fair to have several of these people cut off arguments like mine with the "you're homophobic" card. That card is unfair and is irresponsibly played far too often. I would think that homosexuals wouldn't want that being thrown indiscriminately at people who happen to argue against one aspect or another of a funding bill or social piece of legislation.

I really just continue to argue to try to show people that you can oppose the funding of this center without being intolerant or hateful. I bet a know a few Log Cabin Republicans that would oppose this, even though they are the citizens this is supposed to help. I finally thought I made my point clear until the n00b showed up and wasted her first post on a tirade that showed she absolutely didn't comprehend my arguments at all.

10/27/2006 8:16:42 PM

bgmims i have a question:

would you say that most of the people opposed to this center are opposed because of the reasons you have mentioned, or because of some irrational ignorant bullshit?

because perusing through the facebook group opposed to this center i sure do see a lot of confederate flags

10/27/2006 8:23:13 PM

i fucking LOVE the word perusing

10/27/2006 8:29:02 PM

Guth, I can't be sure. I suspect (I think I said this several posts ago) that it may be the case that the larger portion oppose it because they are ignorant assholes.

Doesn't mean we should fund it because of that though. IMO, they end up at the correct point of view but only vicariously through their idiocy. I'd rather they simply shut up--or truthfully I'd rather they didn't exist--but I think opposing it is the right answer, but for the wrong reasons as far as they are concerned.

10/27/2006 8:41:15 PM

I think thats exactly what makes the group worth funding

10/27/2006 8:42:52 PM

Worth funding privately, absolutely!
Worth funding with public funds, I disagree.

I can empathize with your position but still oppose it for the following two reasons.

1) I think it is wrong to use funds to seperate us by sexual orientation. (I know, I've said it ad naseum, but it is relevant here.)
2) I don't think this center will even begin to scratch the surface of removing animosity towards gay people. The people that attend events held by this center will be those that self-selectively attend them. They won't be the people who dislike homosexuals. The only real way to lose intolerance of any kind is to interact with them in a non-forced way. Finding out one of your buddies/relatives is gay is the only way to solve it. I would guess that this center MIGHT indirectly do that by convincing a couple of students to come out of the closet, but I don't think it will be enough to warrant the spending, whether public or private.

__
At this point I'd like to thank you for being one of the only people in the thread to beliefe that I'm not anti-gay.

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 8:52 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2006 8:50:43 PM

Quote :

"Does anyone have the figures on how much the government pays for our college education? And is it broken down so that all financial aid isn't lumped in and counted in the per student cost?"

Here's the deal:

Both my parents grew up poor. My mother grew up in Eastern Tennessee with seven brothers and sisters. Her father had a two-year degree and worked a good job in engineering; her mother did not finish high school. My father grew up in Western North Carolina with one sister. His father finished high school and worked as a truck driver, served in the Navy, and got a good job at AT&T; his mother did not finish high school and worked in a school cafeteria. In both their familes, education was stressed over everything else.

Both my parents attended college on loans, aid, and scholarships. My mother was in the second class of women accepted at UNC-CH as freshmen. My father went to State. My father went on to get his Masters; my mother got two Masters and a PhD.

Now they make a ton of money and pay taxes on that ton of money they make.

And that's why you should never bitch about subsidizing higher education.

10/27/2006 8:55:26 PM

I wasn't bitching about it...though

My background:
Grandfather on my mother's side was a Navy man for WWII and Korea. Then he taught shop at a high school and buiding contracted on the side. His wife stayed at home and raised their 9 kids (yes she was Catholic. He was Lutheran, but he was very understanding of her beliefs). Neither of them went to college. My father's father grew up on a farm with his g-parents. His father was electrocuted on accident while working on power lines while he was an infant. He drove trucks and was a traveling paint salesman for his working career. His wife went to college and was a math teacher. My dad went to University of South Carolina and got a degree in business. He's worked in several different textile companies and is now a manager and does pretty well for himself monetarily, although he is on call 24/7 and never works less than 55 or 60 hours a week. My mother went to College of Charleston and got a BS in Mathematics. Then she got a masters in math education when I was an infant. She also makes good money, but only because she has a masters and +20 years of experience and works two or three nights a week at a community college.

Education was a must in our family. I think it is a worthy cause for the government to help pay.

__
And they pay an assload (%-wise anyhow) of taxes

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 9:03 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2006 9:02:43 PM

Quote :

"Worth funding with public funds, I disagree."

it has more worth than your stupid investing club

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 9:19 PM. Reason : and this group isnt seperating people you god damn retard, gah!]

10/27/2006 9:18:03 PM

i dont know where you get the term PUBLIC FUNDS, if by that you mean student fees then that is not a tax, you are not forced to pay it, so it is not public funds, it belongs to the students and guess what : oftentimes gay people and students are synonomous so the STUDENT FUNDS are going to benefit STUDENTS. end of story. just because some people don't agree with the lifestyle gives you no right to keep the campus from growing. good thing ignorant people like you have already been overuled

10/27/2006 9:41:21 PM

Quote :

"And they pay an assload (%-wise anyhow) of taxes"

Your parents don't sound like they make near as much money as you like to say they do. Upper middle-class? I call bullshit.

I'm actually being serious here.

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 10:19 PM. Reason : Serious.]

10/27/2006 10:18:55 PM

Quote :

"student fees ...[are]...not a tax, you are not forced to pay it"

AWWWWWWW SHIT, THEN I WANT A FUCKING REFUND! Unfortunately I doubt your statement is true. It would be better to think of student fees as a tax at the municipal/university level. I've never agreed with most of the things student fees support, and this is no exception.

10/27/2006 10:29:58 PM

still the gayest thread ever



I haven't read a page of it yet

10/27/2006 10:31:25 PM

couldnt our money have been used for better purposes other than catering to the gay people?

10/27/2006 10:48:36 PM

^^^^The only reason why I say that is bgmims strikes me as your standard deluded conservative when it comes to money. There's this whole chunk of America that consists of people who consider themselves wealthy--they have the boat, the house, the beach house, and the fancy car...why shouldn't they feel that way? Well, it's because they aren't. They aren't even close. They're just middle-class Americans. But they cling to this idea that they're hard-working, hypersuccessful individuals who did everything on their own, and rant on and on about, "MY MONEY! I EARNED IT! NO MORE TAXES!" like they're Scrooges with piles of gold in their basements. And so they emulate the rich and vote Republican, like that somehow means they're in the Club, but the joke's on them. Republicans will do like they always do: lower the taxes for the real rich people, cut programs for everybody, and leave the rest of the tax burden on the middle class, the same class of people who believe it's in their best financial interest to vote Republican.

I mean, seriously, think about it. If they're cutting taxes for the rich, where's the rest of the money going to come from? Poor people? HA!

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 10:50 PM. Reason : sss]

10/27/2006 10:49:19 PM

^^^^
Pyro, I'd ignore posts from that user (amywhatever) ... pretty sure it's an alias trying to troll. Too many dumb things said just when the thread is getting somewhat of a good discussion going.

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 10:50 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2006 10:50:30 PM

Will a bath house be included? I'm just asking.

10/28/2006 12:52:42 AM

Quote :

"Your parents don't sound like they make near as much money as you like to say they do. Upper middle-class? I call bullshit."

Well perhaps we're dealing with differences in definitions.

What income/asset bracket would you consider upper-middle?


___

Quote :

"i dont know where you get the term PUBLIC FUNDS, if by that you mean student fees then that is not a tax, you are not forced to pay it, so it is not public funds, it belongs to the students and guess what : oftentimes gay people and students are synonomous so the STUDENT FUNDS are going to benefit STUDENTS. end of story. just because some people don't agree with the lifestyle gives you no right to keep the campus from growing. good thing ignorant people like you have already been overuled "

Wow, some people not agreeing with their lifestyle has nothing to do with why this is a waste of funds. I guess you didn't major in "getting the fucking point." Ignorant? Me? I see you aren't really even trying to read and understand why I disagree with the funding of this.

And if you don't see student fees as a tax, you must also think income tax is voluntary because you can just quit your job.
____

Guth

Quote :

"it has more worth than your stupid investing club [Edited on October 27, 2006 at 9:19 PM. Reason : and this group isnt seperating people you god damn retard, gah!]"

It probably does have more worth than my club. Then again, it's getting 1000% more funding than did my club as well. Also, worth isn't a proper definition of what fees should be spent on. There are other more worthy things you could do with that money...like build a shelter for the homeless, but it doesn't fit the bill either.

And you say it isn't seperating people? I agree that they'd let me come to their events, but the very people you're trying to reach (ignorant rednecks) aren't going to come to a screening of the Mathew Shephard (sp?) Story. This won't help in the intended way. I'm sure there will be some benefit from this type of center. I really am. The question is a)whether it is a proper use of student fees and b) whether the amount of benefit students would get from it would offset its cost, even if it were a proper use of funds

[Edited on October 28, 2006 at 1:06 AM. Reason : please don't call me retarded, use your big boy words :o)]

10/28/2006 12:56:32 AM

The NC State community as a whole could benefit, even if ignorant rednecks didn't show up to events. The presence of the center alone ups the visibility of gays, an "invisible minority". By hosting events the center can foster discussion. Sure, the "ignorant rednecks" won't show up, but people on the fence concerning their view of gays might. And consequently they might not be as tolerant to the bigotry some might exhibit.

This pays off in another ways as well. Gays will be more comfortable at events they might otherwise be harrassed at, like tailgating for a football game. It's not going to be an instant transition. A lot of prejudice will have to be slowly eroded away and it'll never completely disappear, just like racism still persists at this university.

Even if a lot of students are against (which history shows means practically nothing to the administration at this university) in the end it can lead to a more tolerant atmosphere and dispel a lot of myths still floating around. And maybe, just maybe, people can come up with a better insult for UNC than calling them all faggots.

Correct if I'm wrong, but won't this $200,000 be one-time hit on the budget? After that won't it be just basic maintenance of the office space and paying the employees?

10/28/2006 1:50:16 AM

I'm sorry for bringing this up late, but I had to respond:

Quote :

"do people yell "OMG ITS A WHITE MALE" like they might yell at a gay person if they are seen in a certain location? "

Try being a White male and going to an all Black club.

Quote :

"What special needs do white heterosexual males have that need to be filled by counseling? If you don't think gays are still facing issues of equality in this country, you're wrong. Just last year, in Tampa, Fla., where I used to live, they passed an ordinance banning a gay pride display at the public library, citing specifically that it was "inappropriate to have in a place with so many children"."

Yes, and I'm sure that a "White Pride" parade would be totally appropriate anywhere?

Quote :

"The big question is, what need would be filled by making a center for white heterosexual males, a group that for all intents and purposes, doesnt face the social consequences that females and homosexuals could possibly face. If a woman is raped or sexually abused, she can go to the women's center. if a homosexual is threatened, he/she can go to this center. what issues might the heterosexual white male face that is so prevalent in today's society that can be helped by counselors trained to handle "hetero white male issues"?"

Where would a male go if he is raped? Is there a crisis center for them? Nope, I guess they just get to deal with it. Fair, huh?

10/28/2006 3:00:50 AM

Quote :

"Try being a White male and going to an all Black club."

ive done that, no one cared.

Quote :

"Where would a male go if he is raped? Is there a crisis center for them? Nope, I guess they just get to deal with it. Fair, huh? "

males arent sexually assaulted at nearly the same degree women are, but if it happens they can go to student health and talk to a counselor. counseling women after rape isnt the only thing that a women's center does (and im just assuming they even do that because someone mentioned it)

10/28/2006 9:24:48 AM

Quote :

"they can go to student health and talk to a counselor."

As an aside, I'm pretty sure that student health has several counselors who are dedicated to LGBT.

10/28/2006 9:34:04 AM

as an aside,

Quote :

"counseling women after rape isnt the only thing that a women's center does (and im just assuming they even do that because someone mentioned it) "

10/28/2006 9:34:54 AM

I'm just throwing that out there as an example of an LGBT resource that is currently available on campus. And I'm pretty that they are exclusively dedicated to the LGBT.

10/28/2006 9:43:06 AM

and those counselors will be able to help a few students, but will not be able to do anything about the problems they face on campus

10/28/2006 9:49:05 AM

Not good enough, huh?

10/28/2006 9:50:59 AM

i have no idea what that means, can counselors solve the problems in some way i am not aware of?

10/28/2006 9:54:47 AM

Your previous post made counselors seem pretty impotent.

Largely, however, I just do not see the problems that are being described in this thread. I regularly see people on campus with LGBT T-shirts (the rainbow logo, 'Everyone welcome here', etc), I see cars with rainbow stickers, and I know of at least one gay owned business on Hillsborough. I don't see these people being beat up, laughed at, pointed at. I don't see the cars vandalized. The business seems to be doing pretty well. I haven't heard of people disrupting LGBT club meetings. This indicates to me that people are not uncomfortable with being identified as or associated with LGBT, and it would also indicate that most people are tolerant, whatever their private views. I am not gay and I realize that because of that I may not be sensitive to various slights and what-have-you. This is why I asked earlier, "What makes a place LGBT friendly?" to which no one has given a serious response.

My biggest beef with this whole thing is how anyone who does not unquestioningly support giving the LGBT center everything is being labeled as an intolerant, homophobic, redneck. Despite BridgetSPK and amyisawesome's claims to the contrary, $200,000 is a lot of money and those who pay the money have every right to be concerned with how it's spent.

10/28/2006 10:36:29 AM

Try holding hands with a male on campus, see how close the car swerves while they are yelling faggot.

10/28/2006 10:43:10 AM

Quote :

"The NC State community as a whole could benefit, even if ignorant rednecks didn't show up to events. The presence of the center alone ups the visibility of gays, an "invisible minority". By hosting events the center can foster discussion. Sure, the "ignorant rednecks" won't show up, but people on the fence concerning their view of gays might. And consequently they might not be as tolerant to the bigotry some might exhibit. This pays off in another ways as well. Gays will be more comfortable at events they might otherwise be harrassed at, like tailgating for a football game. It's not going to be an instant transition. A lot of prejudice will have to be slowly eroded away and it'll never completely disappear, just like racism still persists at this university. Even if a lot of students are against (which history shows means practically nothing to the administration at this university) in the end it can lead to a more tolerant atmosphere and dispel a lot of myths still floating around. And maybe, just maybe, people can come up with a better insult for UNC than calling them all faggots. Correct if I'm wrong, but won't this $200,000 be one-time hit on the budget? After that won't it be just basic maintenance of the office space and paying the employees?"

You make some good points here and I can't say I disagree that the center can be helpful. I just think it would be better to ask for private donations (hell, use the diversity allotment for the whole thing and I'll shut up). I do think the benefits you're espousing might be overly optimistic. I mean, have they done some research into other centers and found that they reduced bigotry over the next years/decade? Even still, I'd rather they didn't use student fees, because IMO, its an improper use, but I'd at least want to know we did some research. My guess is that we are reacting to the "least friendly to LGBT" tag we got and not really reacting to a specific problem in the LGBT community at NC State.

Also, on your "basic maintenance of the office space and paying the employees"

Quote :

"Director $50,000 Assistant $25,000 Grad-Student $10,000 Furnishings $15,000 (carpet, furniture, computers, etc.) ($100,000 cumulative) Initial Marketing $50,000 (pamplets, literature, maybe a conference, etc.) Misc. Program Costs $50,000 ($200,000 cumulative)"

I'm not sure about Misc. Program costs, and whether we'd fund them each year, but even still its an $85,000 a year "office in Talley."
______

Quote :

"Try holding hands with a male on campus, see how close the car swerves while they are yelling faggot. "

Is that experience first hand, word of mouth, hypothetical? I'd like to know, because I've never witnessed that type of behavior at NC State <~~The car swerving, not the man-hands

It seems like we would read more incidents like that in the Technician.

Also, do you really think a center being present is going to solve that? I mean, someone intolerant enough to threaten lives (or pretend to) is obviously not going to be swayed in 4 years by the presence of a center. Or is the benefit supposed to be that the couple would have somewhere to go and talk about it?



[Edited on October 28, 2006 at 11:00 AM. Reason : ?]

10/28/2006 10:57:50 AM

Quote :

" I'm not sure about Misc. Program costs, and whether we'd fund them each year, but even still its an $85,000 a year "office in Talley.""

are you seriously that ignorant and fucking stupid? Staffing an office isn't cheap. No matter what office it is, you are looking at normally over 100,000 a year in compensation. And there are more serious things you should be concerned about fee wise than this. Just look at the STudent Government budget.

10/28/2006 11:40:13 AM

Quote :

"Where would a male go if he is raped? Is there a crisis center for them? Nope, I guess they just get to deal with it. Fair, huh?"

You make it sound like people explicitly decided to exclude males from rape counseling. Ironically, a counselor at NC State held group counseling for men who have been raped.

Quote :

"My guess is that we are reacting to the "least friendly to LGBT" tag we got and not really reacting to a specific problem in the LGBT community at NC State."

From what I hear they've been askng for an LGBT center for awhile. IMO the only thing the Princeton Review did was shine a spotlight on the exceedingly obvious. Even some of the faculty members are homophobic (or whatever you want to call it). I believe it's in the students' best interest that the university attempts to foster a more tolerant and inclusive community. Should student fees pay for that? I don't see why not.

And that's my contribution.

10/28/2006 11:49:03 AM

^
Those estimates are incorrect ... guesses on my parts. The correct numbers are listed on page 6.

Quote :

"I see what you're saying, but I don't see why it would be up to me and those that oppose the wasteful spending to come up with ways to fund the center"

If you (and others ... mostly those in Student Senate) don't, nobody else will, and things will move forward as if this multi-page thread discussion never happened.

Also, wanted to ask, can somebody find a definition/clarify what is "diversity allotment" that is supposed to help paying for part of this? [Looked and found this ... but didn't spot anything on first glance about diversity allotment. Helpful to have an intro course to accounting to understand:
http://www.fis.ncsu.edu/controller/financial_reports/2005_financial_report.pdf]

10/28/2006 11:53:30 AM

The titles of today's articles in campus forum in the technician are

Providing to one diversity group only alienates others

and

Stop bashing Christians

And I these articles just lead me to question, will North Carolina ever stop focusing on being pro-gay, and finally give the Christians a chance practice openly?

10/28/2006 11:56:46 AM

Quote :

"are you seriously that ignorant and fucking stupid? Staffing an office isn't cheap. No matter what office it is, you are looking at normally over 100,000 a year in compensation. And there are more serious things you should be concerned about fee wise than this. Just look at the STudent Government budget. "

I didn't say staffing an office is cheap you fucking moron. If you read what I was responding to, he asked in the 200K was a one-time only or yearly expense and I responded to it. But you probably didn't read that, you just thought you'd spotted a point and wanted to jump on it like Oprah on an ice-cream cake. And of course there are more serious things I am concerned with fee wise, but this thread wasn't about those other wasteful expenditures. It is about THIS wasteful expenditure. As usual, when faced with decent opposition, morons like you say "Well why should we worry about waste #4000 when there's other waste to tackle too." Then when I say: "Okay, lets look at #3999", you say "Why should we worry about #3999 when there's other waste to tackle too."

I tell you what, even though I don't think this should be funded with public funds, why don't you find me $100,000 of student fee expenditures we can easily cut this year that don't benefit many students and then at least $85,000 for each subsequent year. Even though I think its still a waste, if we can easily cut it from other programs, I would let it slide. But you have to be seriously off your rocker to think that its a legitimate argument that we shouldn't give a shit about wasting resources because they're wasted elsewhere too. How are we supposed to clean up the waste if you take that attitude to every new expenditure?

10/28/2006 1:44:20 PM

im down with cutting the investing club

10/28/2006 2:01:46 PM

this thread is like a bad accounting class.

10/28/2006 2:28:14 PM

Quote :

"im down with cutting the investing club"

a) You're too late. The new club leadership didn't lobby for additional funds
and
b) That's $200. Even if it did exist and you did cut it, you're only 1/500th of the way there.

10/28/2006 2:33:21 PM

you should probably start lobbying for lower fees and lower spending, because the money will just be spent elsewhere

[Edited on October 28, 2006 at 2:56 PM. Reason : like on stupid investing clubs]

10/28/2006 2:55:43 PM

^ A good point, for sure. Same damn problems I have with Congress right now. Absolutely zero self control. And, I guess it depends on my alternatives of whether or not I'd rather waste the money on this or some other even less-helpful piece of crap. I still can stand against it on principle, right?
___

Cheap shot, but maybe you don't know what the Investing Club did. It was a club devoted to helping educate students about finances so they were capable of making investing decisions when they graduate. I actually think that would have been a tremendous benefit for students if it ever got off the ground. For instance, it ecnourages people not to abuse credit the way they have and helped them figure out how to invest their 401(k) since people frequently get no decent advice from their employers (for legal reasons)


[Edited on October 28, 2006 at 2:59 PM. Reason : .]

10/28/2006 2:58:16 PM

im just pointing out how why using the "i dont like spending on anything" argument doesnt work, this isnt the right forum for that

[Edited on October 28, 2006 at 3:00 PM. Reason : that club sounds stupid]

10/28/2006 3:00:21 PM

Jon, two points:
1) You don't like the club? I thought it was beneficial, but I guess there is room for difference in opinion
and
2) I'm not using simple the "I don't like spending on anything" line. I'm using the a)I don't think this is a proper use of funds by definition and the b)Even if it were, I don't see the benefit outweighing the cost lines

10/28/2006 3:05:39 PM

your investment group is divisive and discriminates against people who cant invest

Quote :

"Even if it were, I don't see the benefit outweighing the cost lines"

and this is why ive just accepted that you are ignorant and stopped even arguing that point

[Edited on October 28, 2006 at 3:09 PM. Reason : .]

10/28/2006 3:08:43 PM

a) Everyone in the country either can invest or will be able to invest in the future. Even a savings account is an investment. Even if they couldn't, an organization dividing by common interest is certainly within the bounds of the University. IMO, you shouldn't be able to divide by race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation. What's so hard for people to get about that. If its illegal to discriminate based on it for a job, I don't see why it should be any different at the University level.

b) You say ignorant, I say a realist.

This is coming from someone who went from being a homophobic anti-gay to a pro-gay marriage, very accepting person by finding out that some of my friends were gay and by meeting other gay people who became my friends. My guess is that this center won't make the community more open to gay people.

10/28/2006 3:17:46 PM

answer me this one question

How does an LGBT Center negatively effect you?

10/28/2006 3:25:01 PM

Not one iota. I think "not harming me" is a poor substitute for "benefitting the overall community based on the amount of money spent" though. And I know you honestly think that this center will do that, and I disagree. I don't think there's any moral high ground in our difference of opinion, so I'd appreciate it if you'd unmount the high horse.

10/28/2006 3:27:05 PM

If it does not negatively effect you one iota, why are you so down on it?

10/28/2006 3:28:04 PM