Quote :

"suggestions for a 9 mm personal defense round? "

Speer Gold Dot +P
Speer Gold Dot standard P
Winchester Ranger T/Ranger Bonded
Federal HST

All in 124-127gr. My preference is the 124gr GDHP +P and beyond that it doesn't really matter much to me. They're all good bullets.

I dont like Speer short barrel ammo. They load them to be lower flash and lower recoil while still expanding as much as the regular and +P loads. That equates to lower penetration...and enough penetration is a lot more important than any expansion.
Besides, unless you're shooting a 2" barreled 9mm the other loads still produce great velocity. The +P GDHP clocks in at around 1200fps in a Glock 26. That's as much as the standard pressure GDHP in a full sized gun and expansion is as good.

So yeah...I save the short barreled ammo for those who have reallly short barrels and are recoil sensitive. My 38 spl carry load is Double Tap's 125gr GDHP +P which produces more power than Speer's GDHPSB 357 load.

Quote :

"i found some PMC 9 mm FMJ for $11.50/50 rds. good price?"

It's not a bad price but Walmart has Federal Champion 115gr 9mm for $10/box. IDK about Raleigh, but it's somewhat easy to find it in stock here in Rocky Mount.

[Edited on April 6, 2010 at 10:53 AM. Reason : ]

4/6/2010 10:42:56 AM

Quote :

"i found some PMC 9 mm FMJ for $11.50/50 rds. good price?"

yes. PMC is fairly clean ammo too.



and for personal defense 9mm i'm carrying Hornady Critical Defense 9mm.

4/6/2010 10:46:34 AM

thanks for all the help guys

[Edited on April 6, 2010 at 10:55 AM. Reason : doesn't walmart have a limit though? this guy will let me buy all i want.]

[Edited on April 6, 2010 at 10:56 AM. Reason : it's worth the extra money to only have to make one trip to me ]

4/6/2010 10:55:02 AM

Walmart has a 6 box limit.
If it's more convenient then get it.
It's not a bad price.

Except for personal defense ammo, I only buy Win and Fed/Blazer Brass because that's what I have the most of. It keeps things simple for me when I reload.

[Edited on April 6, 2010 at 11:03 AM. Reason : ]

4/6/2010 11:02:43 AM

Quote :

"It's not a bad price but Walmart has Federal Champion 115gr 9mm for $10/box. IDK about Raleigh, but it's somewhat easy to find it in stock here in Rocky Mount."

Haven't seen any of that recently -- just orange boxes of the swiss (?) stuff for ~$17/box.

4/6/2010 7:34:14 PM

9mm vs .40

S&W is having a $50 rebate on their baseline gun the SW9VE and the SW40VE. both guns are the same price ($299-$379 online/instore).. ammo for the .40 is maybe $1 more per box (from a quick look around the gun store)...

I already have a .45 1911 springfield.

i want another gun for more affordable target shooting. not that I cant afford the .45, but the dang ammo is a lot harder to find IMO (from searching walmarts), plus the 9 $ 40 is a good $5-7 cheaper per box.

the two SW are identical from what i was told at the store, but they only had the 40 in stock. I held it and it felt nice.

its obvious the 40 is probably a better buy, but why not the 9? for the same price there's gotta be a reason. the man at the store said the 9s sell like hot cakes. at first i thought it was ammo price and availability.. but it was about even at the store and at the walmarts ive checked.

4/6/2010 7:42:43 PM

I don't have a 9 nor have I looked at ammo prices lately, but I thought 9 was still much cheaper than .40 (like ~$5/box).

4/6/2010 8:18:18 PM

9mm is $3 a box or so cheaper at walmart IIRC.

4/7/2010 12:04:31 AM

yeah even at the gun show last month the best price on .40 was about $17 for 50 non reloads. 9 is still cheaper.

4/7/2010 12:32:09 AM

walmart is $15/50 for .40.

4/7/2010 10:14:57 AM

what's y'alls favorite shotgun home defense round? I am about to buy the mossberg lock box so I'd like to keep it loaded up as an option in case my other guns for some reason are in my safe or not available

http://www.mossberg.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=95092&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.exe%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates\MossPdgNav\SearchResult.html%26category%3DSECU




I live in a town home so whatever ammo I get, I don't want it flying through walls. I also want lead, and probably only 2.5 (I have 3" steel high velocity loads, and those about blow my shoulder off when shooting- I'd hate to see what would happen if the gf tried to shoot it).

4/8/2010 11:15:47 AM

i wouldn't lock up a home defense shotgun

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 11:45 AM. Reason : i just keep 3" 00 buckshot in mine]

4/8/2010 11:44:51 AM

well I lock it when I'm away (38 bucks is alot cheaper than a rifle/shotgun sized safe) and when I'm home it will be unlocked but still hanging on the wall

4/8/2010 12:55:50 PM

good idea... I may look into that lock.

as far as shotgun ammo for HD... I think it really boils down to this:

either definitely stop the attacker and risk penetrating walls - or -
maybe stop the attacker and little risk of penetrating walls

I say it's better to stop the attack and worry less about penetration... and how likely are you to miss that shot anyways? a few yards, little spread... and from what I've seen, most useful HD shots are going to penetrate walls (or else they wouldn't be great HD ammo)

I have 3" 00 buck as well

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 1:07 PM. Reason : .]

4/8/2010 1:05:16 PM

oh, i understand now. i thought that was just some sort of breach lock. didn't realize it locks it to the wall.

4/8/2010 1:26:57 PM

My choice is Remington 2.75" low recoil 00 buck (8 pellets).
There's no sense in going with full recoil for home defense as the low recoil stuff penetrates enough and you can accurately fire off more shots.

If penetration is an issue then I'd pick #4 buck...but good luck finding that.

The lock box is a good idea. Just keep it locked when you're away and unlock it when you get home.
An unsecured gun is a horrible idea. Imagine coming home then realizing a bad guy is inside pointing your own gun at you.

4/8/2010 5:02:35 PM

how many pellets are usually in a 20 ga 00 buck shell? thinking about getting a 20 ga for home defense at the new place since deemarie will be there alone when i'm on night shift. the 835 i've got now really has a longer barrel than i'd like for HD anyway.

4/8/2010 5:33:44 PM

I didn't know this til yesterday when I talked to my friend who has a few 20ga guns. They don't load 20ga in anything as big as 00 buck because each pellet takes up so much room. You'd only have like 4 00 pellets.

You could always check midwayusa to see what kinda ammo is out there
http://www.midwayusa.com

Either step down to smaller buckshot or get low recoil 12ga.
I like low recoil 12ga buck. It shoots as soft as cheap bird shot, sometimes even softer.
You can also take a hack saw to the 835...I did that to my Mossberg 500 and it turned out great.

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 6:39 PM. Reason : or get a 410. Fed makes a 4 pellet 2.5" 000 load. I imagine that'd be fun to shoot in a 410]

4/8/2010 6:37:45 PM

NRR, I say we just get a HD 12 ga. I can handle it fine as long as its short enough for me to throw up to my shoulder and shoot. If I'm having to use it for self-defense, I could care less about the recoil or the bruise as long as it will stop/kill the asshole breaking in.

4/8/2010 6:45:35 PM

well i guess the boss has spoken she's right though, she handled a 12 ga fine when dove hunting, so she should be fine. i just wanna make sure she can get off multiple shots. i think some practice is in order

Quote :

"You can also take a hack saw to the 835...I did that to my Mossberg 500 and it turned out great."

nah, i use it for hunting too. we'll get a synthetic 12 ga 500 with an 18" barrel and extended mag and be done with it. thanks for the heads up on the low recoil shells. i hadn't thought about those.

we could also find some sort of shells for her 20 ga browning micro. then it's point and click. i just don't like long hunting barrels for HD and it'd have a lower mag capacity.

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 6:55 PM. Reason : adfs]

4/8/2010 6:53:19 PM

Does dicks sell these low recoil 12ga shells? If so, any brand recomendations? Sorry to sound like a n00b- I just really don't know much about shotguns (other than how mine feels to shoot)

4/8/2010 6:54:56 PM

Quote :

"nah, i use it for hunting too. we'll get a synthetic 12 ga 500 with an 18" barrel and extended mag and be done with it. thanks for the heads up on the low recoil shells. i hadn't thought about those."

Good choice. Get one with a buckstock. If you shoulder it you'd have to be an idiot to miss at home distances. If you get a pistol grip then you'd actually have to practice to hit things.

IDK if Dick's has low recoil stuff.
I bought all mine at Walmart when they used to carry it (stocked up 4-5 yrs ago). Price has gone up a bit; I got my Rem reduced recoil buckshot for $2.50 a box but now they're twice that at different websites.

It really doesn't matter what brand of low recoil stuff you get as long as it fires in your gun...which shouldn't be an issue with any decent gun.
It's not like you're trying to get tight patterns out to 75 yards for hunting or anything.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?tabId=3&categoryId=17566&categoryString=653***9217***9486***&refineSearchKeywordDisplay=recoil&refineSearchKeyword=recoil

4/9/2010 2:55:19 PM

Quote :

"Get one with a buckstock. If you shoulder it you'd have to be an idiot to miss at home distances. If you get a pistol grip then you'd actually have to practice to hit things."

yeah i don't understand pistol grips. if i can hit a dove way the fuck out there with it on my shoulder, i don't see why i would wanna change things up in my house.

4/9/2010 2:58:20 PM

I just had to say it. Too many people think pistol grips make the gun more handy/scary/tacticool/whatever when in reality it makes it difficult to shoot.

4/9/2010 3:14:50 PM

Are there any ranges near crabtree that are worth going to? I've never been to a range before. Not being able to blast shit out my back door is making me feel claustrophobic and this new 9mm is burning a hole in my pocket.

4/9/2010 3:19:16 PM

Quote :

"I've never been to a range before. Not being able to blast shit out my back door is making me feel claustrophobic and this new 9mm is burning a hole in my pocket."

hahaha this is exactly i feel right now with the kahr sitting in there unshot

back home we just go outside and shoot shit

4/9/2010 3:25:26 PM

Yeah, back home I might just fill a couple cans with water and put them 75 yards away and plink at them during commercial breaks with my .22

Goddamn I love the country

4/9/2010 3:27:47 PM

PDHSC is your best option.

4/9/2010 5:30:31 PM

With that Loc Box deal, couldn't you just pry that off the wall in a few seconds with a crowbar or even a big screwdriver? I guess it is better than nothing but it doesn't seem very secure to me.

4/9/2010 5:56:15 PM

With a lag bolt or two into a stud, it won't be coming away easily.

4/9/2010 6:09:31 PM

there's really no way to completely 100% secure a gun in your home. even a safe that's bolted down through the floor joists can be toted off if the thieves have enough time. there's always gonna be a "well can a thief can still get if if they..." type thing.

i've heard of folks having closets built with steel plate and vault doors or even pouring concrete and steel walls similar to bank vaults for their firearms.

4/9/2010 8:05:44 PM

+1 about the pistol grips for shotguns; First door breach I ever did, lined the muzzle up, looked away to protect my eyeballs, and blasted a hatton round right into the frame about 5 inches above the lock. They are worthless.

4/10/2010 12:25:08 AM

I'm still undecided on the pistol grip for shotguns. It's a compromise but fixes the main drawback of a home defense shotgun.

The biggest problem I see with a home defense shotgun is the overall length in what could be tight quarters. I've come to the conclusion that I prefer a handgun for home defense for someone that is comfortable and familiar with using one.

I've been tossing around the idea of trying a pistol grip to see how it shoots. I may try it and decide I hate the way it shoots.

...my $.02

4/10/2010 11:44:24 PM

a shotgun with an 18" barrel and a regular stock is not too long for me indoors. i'm not gonna be sneaking around corners anyway. i'm gonna stay put and shoot if he comes to me.

4/11/2010 8:48:54 AM

isn't too long for me:

4/11/2010 8:58:39 AM

Mine's not too long for me either.

Take that 18" full stock shotgun, hold it waist level in front of you and try to walk through a door.... it doesn't fit. Same problem turning around in a hallway etc.
Not to say you'd be holding it like that all the time, if you have it you'd probably be holding it pointed up a little or at your shoulder, it works well like that. Just not a problem with a handgun.

I'm just saying for $20 I might try a pistol grip and see how it feels.

For now I'm comfortable with my nice synthetic full stock.

4/14/2010 10:25:14 PM

wtf...you don't go walking around with a long gun like a dog trying to carry a long stick through a gate.
You shoulder it pointed down.
You don't want your muzzle going around a corner first acting like a warning flag either.

I'm not saying a pistol grip won't work for anyone. By all means give it a try. I'm just saying if you can't handle a short barreled shotgun in a house then you're doing it wrong.

4/14/2010 10:44:23 PM

1 person room clearance relies on violence of action. If a dude is in your house, by the time he sees the muzzle of your weapon you should already be around the corner. Speed is your security. The doctrine of close quarters battle has shifted from the old 'slice-the-pie' method to fluid motion into a room, even more necessary if you are alone, as you have no one to cover your blind spots. If you have a good practice range, practice engaging from the isosceles with the weapon at low ready-presentation-and engage.

However, in my opinion trying to clear your own house is not necessary. If I have an intruder, I will lock myself in the bedroom and call the police. He is welcome to take whatever possessions, I have insurance, and the cops will show up eventually. I know there's no duty to retreat in your own home but it's not worth risking my life to go Rambo around the house. Just my thoughts.

4/14/2010 11:23:04 PM

Quote :

"However, in my opinion trying to clear your own house is not necessary. If I have an intruder, I will lock myself in the bedroom and call the police. He is welcome to take whatever possessions, I have insurance, and the cops will show up eventually. I know there's no duty to retreat in your own home but it's not worth risking my life to go Rambo around the house. Just my thoughts."

I'm 100% with you. If you hear your door being kicked in, crashing around the kitchen, etc. the threat is entirely unknown. It may be a lone, drunk bad guy who isn't even aware this isn't his house. And it may be 4 thugs with AK's ready to kill anyone who gets in their way.

The only reason I would ever go looking for the intruder(s) is well after I think they're gone, OR if my kids are in another area of the house. But, if possible, building a defensible position and hoping to avoid an encounter is best. Our plan is to get everyone in one room (or down one hallway), barricade it, and defend it. I plan to yell to the intruder(s) "Take anything you want and I won't stop you, but touch this door and you die" or some variation of that. We also keep our dressers next to the door in every room, so they can easily be tipped over in front of the door.

4/15/2010 9:10:14 AM

Just picked up my concealed carry license in Durham. 94 days, and $110 more than I planned (due to previously mentioned medical records release bills), but it's in-hand.

I called on day 89 to ask if it was ready, and they refused to answer, and said I had to check on day 90. I did. It wasn't there, and of course they blame it on somebody else (in this case, they said "the SBI still has it.") I'm willing to bet it was ready a long time ago and they just didn't want to give it out.

I thought they were nasty to me before. They were not happy about giving it to me today.

"Can I help you?"

"Hi, I'm here to pick up my concealed carry license"

*She rolls her eyes and muffles something under her breath*

She hands me the paper license. "Sign here." I do, and then stand there waiting for her to take it back, but she just goes back to other work.

After an awkward few seconds, she asks "Why are you still here?"

Me: "Doesn't this need to be laminated?"

Her, gruffly: "You have your permit. If you want it laminated, go to Kinko's."

I stood there in disbelief for a few seconds, and then just left when it was clear that any further questions or comments from me would make for a confrontation. There were two deputies in there not-so-subtly looking at me.

Good gracious. I'm glad this is over. I know it's not just me - I thought the Kinko's down the road would look at me funny when I gave it to them. The guy said he's done a dozen CCW licenses. It was only $1.25, but that's nice icing on the Durham gun-nazi cake.

[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 12:05 PM. Reason : a]

4/15/2010 12:01:03 PM

You have a lot of patience. Fuck 'em.

4/15/2010 12:51:06 PM

damn, my story is like the complete opposite

i didn't know that they laminated it for you, so i just took the paper and got the fuck out of there. i was across the street and headed to my truck when i heard someone holler "Mr. MyLastName! Would you like that laminated?!" I'm like "uh, yeah, that'd be cool". they were pretty nice.

4/15/2010 1:03:24 PM

I just got through ordering some basic reloading gear, but I need to find powder and small pistol primers locally. What sort of powder is good for a newbie loading 9mm? Ideally, I'd want something high volume to reduce the odds of double charging and something with a good spread between min and max load. Anyone know of a good place around Raleigh where I could buy this sort of stuff? I just got 100 JHPs to start, so if someone wants to part with a 100 pack of primers and maybe even some powder, let me know.

4/15/2010 3:44:48 PM

^Do yourself a HUGE favor and get a book with suggested loads/powders/primers.

You want to be really careful that you dont use a bad combination of bullet/powder/primer.

4/15/2010 5:16:25 PM

^I know nothing about that but I think I would eventually like to get into it (especially if I ever get around to picking up a 40 or 45)


And ^^^^ that sounds awful... Sucks that you had to go through with it, but at least your're done with it. Hopefully your renewal process won't be as bad

4/15/2010 7:40:54 PM

Thanks. And my renewal process won't be as bad. I'm voting with my feet in the next year.

It really sucks to have a beef with a law enforcement agency. I'm too scared to call them on their crap while it's actually going on, because I didn't want my permit denied or to invite them to make my life miserable. And just by being LEO, they have the means to do it. That's a sorry state for a citizen to be in. I felt more like a groveling dog than anything else.

I have written a couple newspapers and filed a complaint with the department. They broke the law. Plain and simple. The permit is to be issued (that means physically present to be picked up) or denied with documented cause within 90 days. They broke the law. And they can't blame it on anybody else.

Add to this the fact that my permit says the renewal date is 4/4/2015, and it means it was printed around day 84. So that pretty clearly shows somebody lied to me. And even if they didn't, and it was SBI, it is still the Durham Sheriff's legal obligation to give me a permit at day 90 if they can't find a legal cause to deny it. Worth Hill would have owed me a handwritten, signed permission slip on plain white paper saying I can carry. That would have been at least following the law.

It will be hard, though, to find any agency or newspaper that thinks the Sheriff breaking the law like this is a big deal.

It sucks that they have total deniability. All they have to say is "We told him it was ready on day 90, and it was, but he didn't pick it up until day 94. Not our fault." And there is NOTHING I could do to show they're lying, unless I had recorded the conversations.

[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 7:58 PM. Reason : s]

4/15/2010 7:52:17 PM

well if enough people complain, then someone will have to start listening

you should also write this all up and send it to your local representatives

and maybe to the local chapter of the NRA

[Edited on April 16, 2010 at 7:52 AM. Reason : they will probably want to hear about it and have some ideas]

4/16/2010 7:52:06 AM

Quote :

"I just got through ordering some basic reloading gear, but I need to find powder and small pistol primers locally. What sort of powder is good for a newbie loading 9mm? Ideally, I'd want something high volume to reduce the odds of double charging and something with a good spread between min and max load. Anyone know of a good place around Raleigh where I could buy this sort of stuff? I just got 100 JHPs to start, so if someone wants to part with a 100 pack of primers and maybe even some powder, let me know."

Unfortunately, you're not really going to find that stuff locally at any reasonable price. Gun show is the best bet, but it's still a little pricey. Mail order is the best way to do components once you get a load down and can buy in bulk.

There's lots of different things you can do with 9mm - it is a particularly versatile round as far as powder/projectile combos go. I use Accurate #5 in all my 9mm loads because it's clean, easy to meter, and very consistent.

If you want something to tide you over until the gun show, PM me and I will hook you up with some primers, powders, and load data to get started with.

4/16/2010 12:12:14 PM

^^ yeah, don't let them get away with that shit. make them pay for jerking you around, do your part to make sure that behavior isn't repeated, and I'd personally take that woman who gave you a bitchy attitude to task.

4/16/2010 12:37:59 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36635695/ns/politics-washington_post#storyContinued

Open-carry rally hinges on rights
Groups of self-proclaimed patriots will demonstrate in national park

Daniel Almond, a three-tour veteran of Iraq, is ready to "muster outside D.C." on Monday with several dozen other self-proclaimed patriots, all of them armed. They intend to make history as the first people to take their guns to a demonstration in a national park, and the Virginia rally is deliberately being held just a few miles from the Capitol and the White House.

Almond plans to have his pistol loaded and openly carried, his rifle unloaded and slung to the rear, a bandoleer of magazines containing ammunition draped over his polo-shirted shoulder. The Atlanta area real estate agent organized the rally because he is upset about health-care reform, climate control, bank bailouts, drug laws and what he sees as President Obama's insistence on and the Democratic Congress's capitulation to a "totalitarian socialism" that tramples individual rights.

A member of several heretofore little-known groups, including Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership and Oath Keepers -- former and active military and law enforcement officials who have vowed to resist laws they deem unconstitutional -- Almond, 31, considers packing heat on the doorstep of the federal government within the mainstream of political speech.

Others consider it an alarming escalation of paranoia and anger in the age of Obama.

"What I think is important to note is that many of the speakers have really threatened violence, and it's a real threat to the rule of law," Josh Horwitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said of the program for the armed rally. "They are calling health care and taxes that have been duly enacted by a democratically elected Congress tyrannical, and they feel they have a right to confront that individually."

On the lineup are several heroes of the militia movement, including Mike Vanderboegh, who advocated throwing bricks through the windows of Democrats who voted for the health-care bill; Tom Fernandez, who has established a nationwide call tree to mobilize an armed resistance to any government order to seize firearms; and former Arizona sheriff Richard Mack, who refused to enforce the Brady law and then won a Supreme Court verdict that weakened its background-check provisions.

Those coming to the "Restore the Constitution" rally give Obama no quarter for signing the law that permits them to bring their guns to Fort Hunt, run by the National Park Service, and to Gravelly Point on the banks of the Potomac River. Nor are they comforted by a broad expansion of gun rights in several states since his election.

The brandishing of weapons is "not just an impotent symbol" but "a reminder of who we are," said Almond. "The founders knew that it is the tendency of government to expand itself and embrace its own power, and they knew the citizenry had to be reminded of that."

Countered Horwitz: "Our founders thought they got rid of political violence with the Constitution. That was its point. The basic idea of America is one person, one vote, equality."

Vanderboegh and Horwitz both said: "We have a fundamental difference in worldview."

April 19 is the anniversary of the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995 and the government's final confrontation in 1993 with the Branch Davidian cult members in Waco, Tex. But Almond said he chose the date to honor the anniversary of the 1775 battles at Lexington and Concord that began the Revolutionary War, "and that is the only reason."

So-called open-carry rallies have been sprouting across the country. Hundreds gathered in Michigan, New Mexico and Ohio last week, and rallies also are taking place Monday in Arizona.

Vanderboegh and Horwitz both said: "We have a fundamental difference in worldview."

April 19 is the anniversary of the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995 and the government's final confrontation in 1993 with the Branch Davidian cult members in Waco, Tex. But Almond said he chose the date to honor the anniversary of the 1775 battles at Lexington and Concord that began the Revolutionary War, "and that is the only reason."

So-called open-carry rallies have been sprouting across the country. Hundreds gathered in Michigan, New Mexico and Ohio last week, and rallies also are taking place Monday in Arizona.

Vanderboegh and Horwitz both said: "We have a fundamental difference in worldview."

April 19 is the anniversary of the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995 and the government's final confrontation in 1993 with the Branch Davidian cult members in Waco, Tex. But Almond said he chose the date to honor the anniversary of the 1775 battles at Lexington and Concord that began the Revolutionary War, "and that is the only reason."

So-called open-carry rallies have been sprouting across the country. Hundreds gathered in Michigan, New Mexico and Ohio last week, and rallies also are taking place Monday in Arizona.

Vanderboegh and Horwitz both said: "We have a fundamental difference in worldview."

April 19 is the anniversary of the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995 and the government's final confrontation in 1993 with the Branch Davidian cult members in Waco, Tex. But Almond said he chose the date to honor the anniversary of the 1775 battles at Lexington and Concord that began the Revolutionary War, "and that is the only reason."

So-called open-carry rallies have been sprouting across the country. Hundreds gathered in Michigan, New Mexico and Ohio last week, and rallies also are taking place Monday in Arizona.

(...continues to next page)

[Edited on April 19, 2010 at 2:09 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2010 2:08:13 AM