how many of you have seen bullet wounds for real, and know how blood reacts/splatters?

Having seen a couple, and having taken bullet shrapnel myself, blood doesn't react like the movies.

A GSW from close range doesn't have to have splatter. Zimmerman could have made a close range shot to Martins chest and not gotten blood on himself. Now, it isn't likely IMO, but it is possible.

5/17/2012 11:26:14 PM

link to PDF of info: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf

5/18/2012 12:31:44 AM

Anyone seen pictures of Zimmerman after the shooting, or the clothes he was wearing? I hope the picture isn't from the same security camera everyone was using to show that Zimmerman didn't have a bruise on him...

5/18/2012 12:32:58 AM

Quote :

"The THC is important because the media kept showing the 14 year old TM and this shows he wasn't the innocent he was made out to be."

your hated "media" showed pictures of a teenage kid

you know how many teenage kids, regardless of race, have pictures taken of them while they have THC in their system?

a whole fuck of a lot of them

5/18/2012 1:16:37 AM

Quote :

"your hated "media" showed pictures of a teenage kid"

Come on, not at all what he meant.

It was referring to the most used picture of Trayvon, which is several years outdated. Contrasting that with the fact the he was actually an older teenager that smoked pot, not the image of the angelic, innocent 13-14 year old.

5/18/2012 1:23:09 AM

you aren't getting it

what the fuck does marijuana have to do with anything?

5/18/2012 1:52:08 AM

There doesn't seem to be anything groundbreaking in this latest information. It does confirm a point-blank shot, and a possibly broken nose on Zimmerman.

Some other interesting things:
-It says the Arizona Sweet Tea was located and collected with Trayvon, and was in his pocket when he was shot.

- The police recognized Zimmerman has the head of the neighborhood watch

- Martin's cell-phone was near his dead body

- A keychain and flashlight were found in the grass near the "T" between the houses, which is a good bit away from where Martin was killed. It looks like any confrontation started closer to where Zimmerman would have been parked, then drifted farther from where Zimmerman might have been parked.



- They potentially could get Martin's phone unlocked

- They had trainees securing the scene, who didn't know what to do on their own

- an anonymous caller on Feb 28th, 2 days after the shooting, says Zimmerman is racist and aggressive

- one witness said she saw a "chase" heading towards the direction of the "T" but couldn't tell who was chasing who (she wasn't wearing her contact lens)

- the witness accounts have a fair bit of variance in what happened. One witness says Martin was on the ground groaning for help while zimmerman was talking to a neighbor telling her to call 911, then Zimmerman shot martin about 1 minute later.

- they did yell at each other, a few witnesses seem to say they heard yelling, then silence, then more yelling, then the fight and a gun shot.

- the witnesses don't agree on who was yelling help

- all of the official documents describe the situation as Zimmerman confronting Martin, a fight ensuing, then Martin getting shot.

5/18/2012 2:08:00 AM

There have been a lot of anonymous reports of Zimmerman being a huge, blatant racist that hates black people.

I always wonder though as the sources seem obscure. Sure any of that will come up in court and whether the source is valid.

5/18/2012 4:35:43 AM

Previously, had Zimmerman said that Martin went for the gun, or grabbed the gun?

5/18/2012 7:31:37 AM

Quote :

"- The police recognized Zimmerman has the head of the neighborhood watch"

severed?

That changes everything...

5/18/2012 7:46:14 AM

What the hell is that picture. I haven't followed this story at all since its inception

also I've never been in a neighborhood watch sign, that was anywhere near a place of low income lol. I thought neighborhood watch was just a thing to allow people to be nosy and deter people from thinking they could rob people.

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

5/18/2012 7:47:02 AM

Not sure what's going on in that picture, I think the following picture will show the detail a lot better.



Also, I'm pretty sure I left an orange comb in your car. On Christmas eve we went to see a movie right? Well, Christmas day when I went to put Naruto in my DS there was no game in there, so I was wondering if you could give your car a good scouring for my Pokemon Pearl as well. It literally has four years worth of data on it and at least 10 battle-ready six-pokemon squads. If I don't find it, I probably won't be spending any time on pokemon in the future, so just let me know, ok? Thanx man.

5/18/2012 7:51:24 AM

That's just a random picture from the Internet.

5/18/2012 9:33:20 AM

News articles seem to now be highlighting a newly released police report that says "if Zimmerman had stayed in his car and awaited the arrival of police, this death could have been avoided..."



I mean, HOLY DERP! WHAT A SHOCKING REVELATION!


It's my personal opinion that it's too much to expect protection under the law when your incorrect assumptions cause you to inject yourself into a conflict, possibly violating someone else's rights, and then the situation goes awry.

5/18/2012 9:56:32 AM

Quote :

"also I've never been in a neighborhood watch sign, that was anywhere near a place of low income lol. I thought neighborhood watch was just a thing to allow people to be nosy and deter people from thinking they could rob people."

there's a neighborhood watch sign on the corner nearest my parent's home in downtown Annapolis, where the average value of a house on their block is somewhere between $1.5 and $2.5M

5/18/2012 10:05:40 AM

Quote :

"It's my personal opinion that it's too much to expect protection under the law when your incorrect assumptions cause you to inject yourself into a conflict, possibly violating someone else's rights, and then the situation goes awry."

I agree to an extent but that can be a dangerous assertion. You could also say that if Trayvon hadn't attacked Zimmerman, this never would have happened. You can't punish Zimmerman for murder when he was (if Trayvon attacked him) within his rights. You can argue all day long that we only have Zimmerman's testimony to go on but we can't start sending people to prison for murder because they acted legally (albeit stupidly) just because we don't like the outcome if there's no evidence to counter their argument.

5/18/2012 12:58:07 PM

getting your ass beat isn't a life threatening situation that justifies deadly force.

Millions of people get their ass beat every day and live to tell about it.

That said, it's a grey area, and in the heat of the situation, it's difficult to think logically. Fight or flight takes over, and having a gun, it's nearly instinctual to grab it and use it.

With that in mind, second degree murder might be a tough conviction. Manslaughter is probably more appropriate here.

5/18/2012 1:04:04 PM

Quote :

"getting your ass beat isn't a life threatening situation that justifies deadly force. "

The fuck is this shit? People have been beaten to death. No one is going to be able to make an objective calculation like, "Hey, I'm going to be alright after this" when they're getting pounded on.

[Edited on May 18, 2012 at 1:13 PM. Reason : ]

5/18/2012 1:12:27 PM

Quote :

"getting your ass beat isn't a life threatening situation that justifies deadly force. "

Yeh, you should wait until your dead, deaf, blind, or retarded before you use deadly force.

5/18/2012 1:14:13 PM

So what are your current feelings on the case wdprice3? All charges should be dropped?

5/18/2012 1:18:34 PM

it's pretty asanine to cry self defense after he followed and initiated the conflict

5/18/2012 1:21:21 PM

To be honest, I really haven't kept up with it for a while now.

From what I've glanced at on here, I'm not sure how he could be charged/found guilty. I still think it comes down to how things got started (was TM chased or followed, and depending on that, who started the confrontation). Do we have any new information on that?

5/18/2012 1:22:30 PM

^^^^^^^ I said violated someone's rights.... Which doesn't happen in this situation until Trayvon get's grabbed, put under the assumption he's under attack*, or otherwise unlawfully detained. If his rights are violated in this manner, he would have been able to defend himself, IMO.


*re: self defense laws

[Edited on May 18, 2012 at 1:24 PM. Reason : CARROT]

5/18/2012 1:22:58 PM

Quote :

"it's pretty asanine to cry self defense after he followed and initiated the conflict"

Is there new evidence that shows Zimmerman initiated the conflict or is this another "he shouldn't have followed him" spiel?

Quote :

" I said violated someone's rights.... Which doesn't happen in this situation until Trayvon get's grabbed, put under the assumption he's under attack*, or otherwise unlawfully detained. If his rights are violated in this manner, he would have been able to defend himself, IMO."

Right but that's an assumption. You're ASSUMING that Trayvon's rights were violated but there's no proof of that. If Zimmerman pulled his gun and tried to hold Trayvon then it's not self defense. All we know right now is that Zimmerman was there, got his ass beat, & Trayvon died. You can assume shit all day long but you can't throw someone in jail for murder on an assumption and that's all you have.

5/18/2012 1:32:11 PM

Quote :

"was TM chased or followed, and depending on that, who started the confrontation"

Quote :

"A Sanford police officer wrote in his report that he believed that the fatal Feb. 26 encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon was "ultimately avoidable" if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle and waited for police to respond to his 911 report of a suspicious person in the gated community of Retreat at Twin Lakes."

Interesting..I'm sure it's been covered but I didn't know this:

Quote :

" A Sanford police investigative report said that Trayvon Martin "was in fact generally running in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood," USA TODAY's William M. Welch writes. The same report said that Zimmerman had reported "suspicious persons, all young black males" to police previously on August 3, 2011; August 4, 2011; and Oct. 6, 2011. "According to record checks, all of Zimmerman's suspicious person calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified Black males as the subjects,'' the report said. The report includes e-mails between Zimmerman and a Sanford Police Department Neighborhood Watch Program Coordinator, reports USA TODAY's Yamiche Alcindor. In the e-mails from October 2011, Zimmerman inquires about home invasions in his neighborhood and the possible arrest of a suspect. The two also discuss setting up neighborhood watch meetings."

5/18/2012 1:40:22 PM

5/18/2012 1:40:42 PM

Yes.....


I think it's pretty clear from my use of "in my personal opinion" as well as "possibly", that my sentence was written operating under an assumption.

5/18/2012 1:42:55 PM

Quote :

"- the witnesses don't agree on who was yelling help"

This is pretty much the end of the case right here.

Unless the prosecution can find more evidence to shine light on which way this confrontation went, there's no way the court should be able to lock Zimmerman up. It's unlikely it can be resolved beyond a doubt (which should be the requirement), and in the assumption that Martin was beating Zimmerman up then Zimmerman should be free to go.

I agree it would be outrageous for Zimmerman to get away with a blatant hate crime murder. That could be exactly what happened. Problem is that we don't know for sure... so unless something changes about the case he should be let go.

5/18/2012 1:43:28 PM

Quote :

""A Sanford police officer wrote in his report that he believed that the fatal Feb. 26 encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon was "ultimately avoidable" if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle and waited for police to respond to his 911 report of a suspicious person in the gated community of Retreat at Twin Lakes.""

This really doesn't say much. A lot of things are avoidable if xyz happens; however, as far as we know, Zimmerman didn't break any laws by following TM. If GZ chased TM, then it's a different story.

I mean heck, I've "followed" someone who was driving erratically in order to give police a plate #, location, and direction of travel. If we had been stopped at a light/sign and this person then gets out and violently confronts me, did I do anything wrong by following? Can I use deadly force if needed?

Following != chasing

5/18/2012 2:06:15 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/05/trayvon-martin-case-does-zimmermans-self-defense-claim-depend-on-who-started-the-fight/


Nothing new or revealing in this article, but I think it does toss around (probably a bit more succinctly) the same arguments that have been visited...and revisited in this thread. Bias leaning towards TM, obviously.

Namely:
-What enables someone to invoke a claim of self defense?
-Does it matter who the aggressor is?
-How provocation plays into the self defense argument, i.e., you can initiate a conflict without physically touching someone else


What I thought was most interesting was the SYG law's sponsor saying they didn't really consider all (and in my opinion) aspects of this legislation.



[Edited on May 18, 2012 at 5:52 PM. Reason : f]

5/18/2012 5:50:59 PM

Let's continue to ignore that Zimmerman was likely hopped up on (albeit legal) amphetamines.

5/18/2012 7:32:50 PM

^

5/18/2012 9:13:59 PM

You're right, it's much more important to focus on martin smoking a joint a few days earlier than the shooter being under the influence of a psychoactive stimulant. My bust.

5/18/2012 11:50:49 PM

Itt we learn some smart ass phd holder doesn't know the meaning of the word "likely".

It means "greater than 50% probability".

5/19/2012 12:09:17 AM

Quote :

"I'm surprised the black-looking white President hasn't commented further on the white-looking Hispanic's actions against the black-looking black kid. [shrug]"

5/19/2012 12:12:46 AM

Zimmerman was on prescription medications. I always wondered the side effects of taking prescription meds in the first place on his judgement. Paranoia?

Anyway, wasn't the gated community mixed? Or was it all white? I am noticing the thread title itself is a bit race war mongering.

5/19/2012 12:13:05 AM

Quote :

"I always wondered the side effects of taking prescription meds in the first place on his judgement. Paranoia?"

Depending on the drugs, yep.

I can attest. I was on vicodin and flexeril for two months after back surgery and I was pretty paranoid.

But I'm a white-looking white guy, so maybe the drugs affected me differently.

5/19/2012 12:20:01 AM

The whole premise of a gated community is to keep black people from walking around inside.

5/19/2012 12:25:33 AM

^ from the initial media reports though, the community was mixed. not sure if you are trying to make a joke or what... they might not want rift raft coming through... you pay the montly or whatever the fees are, you live there.

5/19/2012 12:27:00 AM

^^ that's not the case in fl. These are middle class town homes, there are a few minorities in there. One of the witnesses needed her roommate to translate.

5/19/2012 1:57:28 AM

WTF is rift raft?

5/19/2012 2:05:55 AM

5/19/2012 2:10:50 AM

I'm not debating the right and wrong of it, but the use the half hispanic/half white or other multiracial descriptives when discussing Zimmerman. I don't remember reporters using that when discussing Slash, Bob Marley, Jason Lee, Obama, Derek Jeter, or any of the other countless folks out there products of mixed families. It's just odd to me and seems wrong.

[/2cents]

5/20/2012 11:30:56 PM

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-22/news/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent

Apparently some witnesses are changing their accounts of what happened:
-Witness who said she saw two people running is now saying that she just saw one person running

-Witness who said they say two men wrestling on the ground but didn't know who was on top is now saying she saw Zimmerman on top

-Witness who said they saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman throwing MMA style punches is now saying they're not sure if any punched were thrown. Trayvon might have just been holding Zimmerman down. However, Trayvon was on top.

-Witness who talked to Zimmerman is now recalling him saying he shot someone like it was no big deal.

5/23/2012 7:39:33 PM

Wonder how much money it takes for someone to change their story.

5/23/2012 8:20:33 PM

Good question...
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/17/2803897/george-zimmerman-fund-raises-1000.html

apparently, Zimmerman's fundraising gets him about $1000/day. plenty to cause anyone to change their story, or buy new witnesses

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 8:30 PM. Reason : f]

5/23/2012 8:27:51 PM

Sounds like he's doing a poor job of buying sympathy if they are changing their stories against him.

5/23/2012 8:46:27 PM

More likely they're second guessing themselves in the face of the media pressure.

Doesn't really matter. Their original statements will be admitted as evidence. If they testify that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman had injuries consistent with getting his ass beat the jury will fill in the blanks.

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM. Reason : s]

5/23/2012 8:48:46 PM

Quote :

"Unless the prosecution can find more evidence to shine light on which way this confrontation went, there's no way the court should be able to lock Zimmerman up."

It's not on the prosecution to prove that it wasn't self-defense. It's on the prosecution to prove that Zimmerman killed Martin. Zimmerman admits to killing martin. It's now on the defense to prove self-defense. If witness testimony is conflicting and the jury can't say which side is more likely, then they go with the prosecution, because the prosecution has proven that Zimmerman killed martin (assuming they proved the rest of the stipulations for whatever charge they ultimately seek)

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM. Reason : ]

5/23/2012 9:57:57 PM

Which is a lot considering they're charging him with 2nd degree murder.

5/23/2012 10:07:23 PM