If Roy didn't know, then it was willful ignorance or very, very strong suspicions and falls under the "should have known" category, which is just as punishable an offense.

11/3/2014 12:27:10 PM

Like it has been said before, they will burn Roy to save Dean's legacy.

Also anyone who thinks Roy could have not known about this the entire time has to be joking. At best he was intentionally separated and then you have this which screams Roy had his hand in this cookie jar too:

Quote :

"Wayne Walden, who came to North Carolina from Kansas when Williams was hired in 2003, was named as a counselor who "steered players into these paper classes" and called Deborah Crowder, the principle figure in the scheme, to arrange classes for players. Walden was the associate director of the Academic Support Program for Student Athletes (APSPA) and handled several sports, including men's basketball."

11/3/2014 1:35:12 PM

just give them a warning they wont do it again

11/3/2014 1:36:56 PM

Bradley Bethel
?@BethelLearning
Nothing starts my day off worse than a DTH cover story lauding Mary Willingham. What is admirable about violating basic research ethics?

11/3/2014 1:53:04 PM

^ can the background be explained to me? I know who Willingham is but what straws is this guy trying to grasp into?

11/3/2014 2:23:18 PM

Is there a new development on Willingham? Are they going after her again?

She was almost as good as them hiring Wainstein (both reports paid for by UNC).


UNC: Willingham, we want you to do an internal investigation on how bad our athletes actually are.

Willingham: Finished my report, you have college players reading at a 3rd grade level. This report is now a publicly released document.

UNC: Oh fuck, we are that bad? Wait, didn't say that, that would be admitting we did something. Instead, you are a crazy bitch and we are going to spend a lot of money discrediting everything you do, but we can't fire you, damn it.

Willingham: I'm going on HBO and writing a book because of how bad this is and I feel everyone needs to know just what is going on in College Sports.

UNC: We are now hiring PIs to find anything in your background to hurt you, but you are still a UNC employee.

Willingham: Alright, I have been harassed enough, I quit. BTW, enjoy my time on HBO you dumb fucks.

UNC: Ok, to show there is no way Willingham was accurate we are going to hire this guy named Wainstein.




[Edited on November 3, 2014 at 2:37 PM. Reason : _]

11/3/2014 2:36:13 PM

Essentially she did her research, applied for review / accrediation or whatever, then when she released her findings, the university pulled the review saying she was applying it to a topic that it was not approved for or originally gathered for, thus taking shots at both her research and credibility. It was basically a way for the university to be like "yea we approve your research, but oh snap you just used it in a way we didnt want you to so we pulled some red tape bullshit to shut you up / try to invalidate your findings".

11/3/2014 2:38:36 PM

UNC does not believe in the Scientific Method

11/3/2014 2:53:53 PM

Can yall imagine what would happen to State if we did this exact same thing in all fashions of how it was done?

I bet we wouldn't even be in the ACC anymore after it was said and done.

11/3/2014 2:56:55 PM

the UNCAA

11/3/2014 3:07:37 PM

I think what Bethel is referring to is that he called Willingham out for plagiarism in some of her research. She claims it was accidental.

Either way, it doesn't take away from the research she did of outing what's being going on at UNC.

11/3/2014 3:25:54 PM

Regrettable and the relevant material if plagiarized could be removed from her report. There's nothing preventing him from standing up in the Faculty Meeting and telling his peers his point of view on this matter and why Willingham should not receive an apology either.

That said, does he think the same of the plagiarism of student papers in this scandal?

[Edited on November 3, 2014 at 3:37 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2014 3:36:57 PM

Technically, they didn't plagiarize anything, given that that didn't actually do jack shit in those fake classes

11/3/2014 3:46:14 PM

Right...it's pretty stupid. Obviously plagiarism is a very serious academic issue and I don't mean to brush it off. But I don't think anything Willingham did negates her research or renders it irrelevant.

Here's Bethel's blogspot post on it:

http://coachingthemind.blogspot.com/2014/08/mary-willingham-appears-to-have.html

You can read it for yourself. But even if Willingham knowingly and blatantly plagiarized, I'm of the opinion that she may be lazy and stupid for doing so, but her research was not completely fabricated. Her findings are still relevant.

This is Bethel's attempt at calling into question Willingham's credibility as a way to distract from her actual work.

11/3/2014 4:09:04 PM

Sorry for the Bethel hate post. The whole Bethel blog posts are a needless distraction. Just love watching that bitch whine/eat crow.

11/3/2014 4:26:44 PM

I haven't kept up with him since the Wainstein report came out. After he vehemently denied any kind of scheme to keep players eligible like Willingham reported, has Bethel at least acknowledged that Wainstein report proves Willingham has some clue about what was going on? He went out of his way to entirely discredit all the work she did. And it turns out a good bit of what she said was damn true.

[Edited on November 3, 2014 at 4:31 PM. Reason : c]

11/3/2014 4:29:49 PM

The closest thing he has come to an admission is this:

Bradley Bethel ?@BethelLearning Oct 27
@yibyabby @heel901 Some otherwise committed educators crossed the line, to help athletes remain eligible as well progress to graduation.

He still maintains MW is a fraud, & those emails were to help athletes graduate, not to make them stay eligible loller.


[Edited on November 3, 2014 at 4:34 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2014 4:32:14 PM

Serious question...which is worse. A scheme to keep athletes eligible to play or a scheme to keep athletes on track to graduate, inflating graduation rates and keeping a team's APR above the NCAA mandated level? I'm not sure one is worse or better than the other. It's just odd how UNC maintains that this was all about graduation, not keeping them eligible. I guess you could argue giving players free grades to graduate is at least done with good intentions in my mind.

Also, good to see Bethel is sticking with the same denial that UNC has gone with from the beginning. Just a few rogue individuals on the football team screwed up. And then it was just a few rogue individuals on the football staff that screwed up. And then it was just a rogue AFAM professor and a rogue tutor. And now it's multiple rogue educators within the rogue AFAM department.

That's a hell of a lot of rogue individuals.

[Edited on November 3, 2014 at 4:41 PM. Reason : d]

[Edited on November 3, 2014 at 4:41 PM. Reason : a]

11/3/2014 4:39:28 PM

Quote :

"It's just odd how UNC maintains that this was all about graduation"

Then they go on to say how proud they are of their graduation rates

11/3/2014 5:18:04 PM

^Exactly. They're throwing their academic reputation under the bus to save their athletic reputation.

11/3/2014 5:37:19 PM

yeah... i'm honestly surprised by how willing they seem to do that.

11/3/2014 5:58:25 PM

I just can't wait to see the new college ranking in terms of academics and how far they fall because of this.

11/3/2014 6:12:05 PM

they probably won't drop much. And at some point they're gonna realize they just need to cut bait and fire anyone who might be the slightest bit guilty, take the slap on the wrist they get from the NCAA, and then they'll be out on good behavior in a few years

11/3/2014 6:27:03 PM

I still remember Gov Martin announcing that "it was not an athletic scandal, but an academic one, which is worse" to then see the BOT members breathe a sigh of relief and crack their jokes as Martin detailed all those fake classes and forgeries...

[Edited on November 3, 2014 at 9:14 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2014 9:14:20 PM

James Moeser - Former Chancellor at UNC

Auburn had a similar Independent Studies controversy back in 2006. That didn't blow up like UNC I guess.

[Edited on November 4, 2014 at 9:54 AM. Reason : ]

11/4/2014 9:53:46 AM

well from the way it's been discussed on talk radio, Auburn didn't take it to the heights UNC did, or they just handled it better (i.e. didn't let as much shit get out). can't remember who said it on the radio, but they said Auburn was a close comp for the NCAA, but UNC's transgressions were on such a whole other level unto themselves, there still was no good precedent to follow

11/4/2014 11:07:39 AM

Dick Baddour's email address bothers me for some reason.

11/4/2014 11:41:26 AM

lrhodes:

Lord Reputation Holder of Dean E Smith

11/4/2014 11:57:03 AM

I hope they release the punishment on December 24

11/4/2014 1:31:02 PM

^
That's actually a bad thing i.e. Announce something unpopular(UNC skates?) on a Friday/before a Holiday.

11/4/2014 2:40:17 PM

you think a major punishment against UNC will be missed by the media? no way, it will be an awesome Christmas present.

11/4/2014 2:50:50 PM

Quote :

"Dick Baddour's email address bothers me for some reason"

I'm just assuming that was his secretary, because he was too dumb to use email.

11/4/2014 3:34:57 PM

UNC gave Willingham permission to research. She did. She released that UNC revenue athletes (i.e. football and basketball) have pathetic grammar school literacy rates to the tune of about 40% even claiming one of Roy's Boys was functionally illiterate.

No one high up at UNC knew this little learning specialist was using literacy rates as the purpose of her research and they of course flipped out, attacking every morsel and technicality they could. It was pathetic. Regardless of all that, the Wainstein report is in line with her research so that's why UNC has been silent on her. They pay some low level chump who is living in his parent's basement (Bethel) to attack her on Twitter. He and the PR firm UNC hired found some citations on her master's thesis over a decade ago had some issues. He and the PR firm then correlate this to first degree murder in the world of academia when in fact it is more equivalent to a speeding ticket.

Again, though, the Wainstein report (which leaves Roy out by design) squashes everyone who has been badmouthing her in their administration. Have no idea why Bethel continues to even utter her name. In two years she will be a giant in the realm of academic reform for D1 athletics.

She also would be a crucial asset to the Feds if they come snooping around concerning Pell Grant Issues. As in she can lead them directly to the bodies and the murder weapon. That prong has yet to explode but The U had a time with it back in the early 90s.

[Edited on November 4, 2014 at 3:50 PM. Reason : .]

11/4/2014 3:47:16 PM

I'm all for torching UNC, but from what I heard from more unbiased sources, she did some shady things. What she was told to research and what she actually researched were very much different. I think she also accessed data outside what she was approved, and released data which should have been better obfuscated regarding individual students.

Again, it doesn't discredit the actual data she presented, but she gave plenty of reason to be torched career-wise. I'm going to have to find those sources again. Too much PackPride spin holding her up on a pedestal.

11/4/2014 6:20:56 PM

Who the fuck cares? Can the NCAA just do something already? Christ, this thing has dragged on for years.

11/4/2014 7:49:43 PM

UNC prefers death by a thousand cuts.

11/4/2014 8:38:53 PM

Capn, that is UNC spin. There would be 3rd parties in academia (ie. separate from trivial message board banter) screaming for her head if what you are posting is even remotely true. And surely, UNC would have fired her as that's grounds or termination, which they didn't. Willingham has all the paperwork associated with her research and I haven't seen one third party call her out for research methods. Doesn't mean it isn't going to happen but I have a feeling it already would have. Willingham is also filing suit against UNC. If what you say is true, they would win and probably counter. Don't hold your breath on that though.

^^ NCAA has never, and will never be on a timetable

[Edited on November 5, 2014 at 8:26 AM. Reason : .]

11/5/2014 8:25:28 AM

It's a purely rhetorical question. I'd drag my feet too if I knew one of my biggest cash cows was fucked six ways til Sunday, but the rest of us are waiting for the ban hammer to drop. We've waited nice and patiently for the past several years, so get moving already...

11/5/2014 9:07:16 AM

I thought the NCAA wasn't expected to punish them until they're on investigation wrapped up, expected to be no earlier than June time-frame.

11/5/2014 9:22:49 AM

I guess they want to give them one more basketball season

11/5/2014 9:40:29 AM

And a College World Series...

[Edited on November 5, 2014 at 10:49 AM. Reason : Baseball is neck deep in this shit too. Hobbs 3 As Johnson]

11/5/2014 10:48:41 AM

Give the clicks

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/11/03/cornell-james-madison-face-questions-about-hiring-former-unc-employees

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/03/4290889_unc-faces-more-scrutiny-by-accrediting.html?rh=1

11/5/2014 4:29:17 PM

In other words UNC employees have jumped ship knowing it was going down and now because of that we will see more investigations from other colleges that have hired these ex-UNC employees. Possibly resulting in even more shit coming out down the road and then will the NCAA open another investigation after this one is over? lol

11/5/2014 6:28:28 PM

Quote :

"[Edited on November 5, 2014 at 10:49 AM. Reason : Baseball is neck deep in this shit too. Hobbs 3 As Johnson]"

That shit still irritates me. With the way their ace got overused at the end of that season if they don't have Johnson due to his academic issues there's zero chance they win the '13 ACC Championship or go to the CWS in '13. Dude was in danger of being ineligible, goes into summer school, aces 3 classes and is with the team for the season.

11/5/2014 6:41:26 PM

Dude, Rashad McCants is the smoking gun for a National Championship (2005), he is the one who went on the record about being in paper classes and he played the entire season including in the championship game.


He also said this:

Quote :

"McCants compared UNC to a prison, stating, "You're not allowed to say certain things, but once you get out of jail, you're free. (I'm) in my sentence, and I'm doing my time.""

[Edited on November 5, 2014 at 6:46 PM. Reason : _]

11/5/2014 6:43:44 PM

Guys Guys... You have it wayyyy wrong about Hobbs Johnson. Even UNC wouldn't try to fake 3 A's to keep him eligible...



I mean come on, 'Hobbs' missing a game due to academics (which has not been documented for a UNC starter in Football, Basketball, Womens BBall or baseball at least in the last 30 years prior to the scandal) would drop the UNC baseball team's douche-pipe-tastic name ratio to only 70%. Mike Fox will not abide that shit.

11/5/2014 7:04:27 PM

^ haha

What an 'incredible story'.

11/5/2014 9:02:30 PM

that young man really did a good job dealing with adversity.

11/5/2014 11:18:44 PM

"learned he'd made four A's"

11/6/2014 12:25:29 PM

his first surprise was finding out that he was in 4 classes

11/6/2014 1:27:22 PM