and our health insurance is anything but catastrophic in nature. if it were, it would be far more affordable for even people who have just lost their job.

Quote :

"17K won't pay for a day in the hospital."

then why did you quote it yourself? why was that listed in your article as the average healthcare bill that bankrupts people?

[Edited on January 20, 2010 at 11:24 PM. Reason : ]

1/20/2010 11:23:42 PM

Quote :

""Also, you shouldn't compare a car purchase to a medical expense. A car is a liquid asset - it can be exchanged for money." irrelevant. The point that was posited was that people can't afford a 17k dollar debt. clearly they can. They do it with cars. "

Lumex is right.

It's dumb to say "well, people can afford cars, so they can afford health insurance" for various reasons, and I don't get why many people on the right like to frame things this way. If you put every issue together than the right likes to argue about, you'll end up damning the majority of Americans to a life of 3rd-world-like misery, while a tiny fraction live like kings (like how things were before the great depression). Our government naturally evolved to a progressive tax system with many anti-poverty programs. It's one of the reasons the US has a high standard of living.

The government now greatly subsidizes education, food, transportation, energy, healthcare and has to run the legal system, which means having a patent system too. Without these things, the people on this very skewed graph would be struggling badly, like poor people do in other nations:

That's not what our country is about. The ideologies that got us where we are are clearly very sound, otherwise the British would have taken over hundreds of years ago, or Russia or China would have wiped us out decades ago.

1/20/2010 11:23:46 PM

Quote :

"It's dumb to say "well, people can afford cars, so they can afford health insurance" for various reasons"

too bad that's not what any one said. nice strawman, dude. go back and read what was said.

Quote :

"Our government naturally evolved to a progressive tax system with many anti-poverty programs. It's one of the reasons the US has a high standard of living."

bullshit. and you know it.

Quote :

"The government now greatly subsidizes education, food, transportation, energy, healthcare "

and our education system is in shambles, our transportation networks are falling apart, our energy grid is horribly outdated, and our healthcare is massively expensive. are you really touting that as something good?

1/20/2010 11:27:16 PM

Quote :

"too bad that's not what any one said. nice strawman, dude. go back and read what was said. "

lol, that's exactly what you said.

That are a myriad of unexpected health ailments where you'd be lucky if $17k was the cost. There's no way to plan for these. And the idea to just have catastrophic coverage doesn't cover that scenario. It's also why most people have HMO-based coverage too.

And if you encourage people to just have catastrophic coverage, that's going to cause a reversion in the generally increasing health of Americans, and make us look REALLY bad compared to Europe. That anyone would seriously consider this a viable position is truly mind boggling.

Quote :

" "Our government naturally evolved to a progressive tax system with many anti-poverty programs. It's one of the reasons the US has a high standard of living." bullshit. and you know it. "

haha, are you kidding? this is such an indisputable fact, that you have to be a full retard to deny it.

Quote :

"and our education system is in shambles, our transportation networks are falling apart, our energy grid is horribly outdated, and our healthcare is massively expensive. are you really touting that as something good? "

Spoken like someone who has never been outside America. Why do you hate America, aarronburro?

We have things GREAT here compared to the vast majority of the rest of the world. If you want to live in a country with a small central government, then go to Haiti.

[Edited on January 20, 2010 at 11:29 PM. Reason : ]

1/20/2010 11:28:49 PM

Quote :

"lol, that's exactly what you said."

bullshit. NOWHERE did anyone suggest that health insurance cost 17k dollars and was bankrupting people. go back and read it, dude. you'll see where the car analogy came up. Allow me to quote the original statement again, to finish the pwning of your strawman:

Quote :

"http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/06/health-care-bankruptcy-on-rise-medical-debt-medical-bills-how-to-avoid-bankruptcy.html Quote : " American Journal of Medicine. The researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to nearly two thirds, or 62 percent, of all bankruptcies in 2007—before the major impact of the housing collapse and current economic downturn. That’s a 50 percent increase over a similar survey in 2001 by the same researchers. As in this case, unaffordable bills directly contributed to 92 percent of medical bankruptcies, and loss of income due to illness caused 40 percent. Many people lose their heath insurance after suffering an illness or injury. A quarter of businesses that offer health insurance cancel coverage immediately when an employee suffers a disabling illness, and 25 percent more cancel coverage within a year, according to the study. Just over three-quarters of people who suffered a bankruptcy due to illness were insured at the onset of their health issue. But the total out-of-pocket medical costs for those who had insurance when they became ill was a steep $17,749, on average. For those who didn’t have insurance, the average debt was $26,971."

note that both amounts are comparable to price OF A CAR. and note that neither is talking about the cost of INSURANCE.

Quote :

"There's no way to plan for these."

and I'm willing to be that most of these have inflated costs due to the fucked up insurance system, too.

Quote :

"And if you encourage people to just have catastrophic coverage, that's going to cause a reversion in the generally increasing health of Americans"

how do you figure? if all of the other costs are inflated due to a horrible insurance system, wouldn't fixing that system and bringing down the inflated costs of routine things, wouldn't that lessen the need for insurance to pay for such things? It absolutely would. What you aren't seeing is that having insurance pay for a doctors visit necessarily drives up the sticker price of that visit.

Quote :

"haha, are you kidding? this is such an indisputable fact, that you have to be a full retard to deny it."

absolutely not. Our socialist policies are NOT the reasons that we do well here. In fact, we are doing well despite them. It is hardly an indisputable fact, especially when you consider just how much it is discussed. Typical liberal elitist ploy, though. Claim something as undeniable and undebatable.

Quote :

"Spoken like someone who has never been outside America. Why do you hate America, aarronburro? We have things GREAT here compared to the vast majority of the rest of the world."

That's why our education system ranks near the bottom compared to just about everything, right?
so. you don't think our transportation is decaying? didn't a bridge collapse in Minnesota last year? you don't think our education system is fucked up? you don't think our healthcare system is fucked up? Really? Besides, that Haiti is crap doesn't mean that our gov't programs are fantastic and the solution to everything. It just means that Haiti is crap.

1/20/2010 11:36:50 PM

Our transportation is great. Our schools could be better, but countries with better education generally have as much or more government involvement. Our healthcare could easily be worse.

Quote :

"Besides, that Haiti is crap doesn't mean that our gov't programs are fantastic and the solution to everything."

But it's also obvious that we can't do away with gov. in the way the right likes to pretend (but they never follow through on when they're in power). You've bought into their bullshit, and have succumbed to the anger they want you to feel.

Quote :

" It is hardly an indisputable fact, especially when you consider just how much it is discussed. Typical liberal elitist ploy, though. Claim something as undeniable and undebatable."

Actually, no one disputes the past really. It's indisputable that the US dominated the 20th century. And we were MORE "socialist" during that time than we are now (when many would argue we're waning).

Quote :

"absolutely not. Our socialist policies are NOT the reasons that we do well here. In fact, we are doing well despite them. "

haha, tell that to the 20th century. You are being pretty delusional here.

1/20/2010 11:53:09 PM

Its a bad comparison because, as I said, cars are LIQUID ASSETS. They can be exchanged for goods and service. Houses also fall into this category. If you're in debt for 17k because of a car or house, then there's an easy fix - sell the car or the house. This is the type of debt that most American's have - debt from non-essential purchases that can be immediately paid off, if necessary.

Health-care debt is not like that. You don't end up with some asset that can be repossessed if worse comes to worse. So, taking on 17k in car debt is not like taking on 17k in health-care debt.

[Edited on January 21, 2010 at 12:05 AM. Reason : In any case, that's beside the point I was making.]

1/20/2010 11:57:36 PM

well for one thing, they can use their new healthy condition to go out and make some money

1/21/2010 12:08:41 AM

Quote :

"If you're in debt for 17k because of a car or house, then there's an easy fix - sell the car or the house."

doesn't change the fact that it is a 17k dollar debt. it's the same debt. same. dollar. amount. people don't go into a car purchase thinking "i can sell this off if shit hits the fan." the go into it thinking "i can afford the payment."

Quote :

"Our transportation is great."

right. that's why we have the best trains. that's why our bridges never collapse. That's why it takes ten years to build two miles of road.

Quote :

"Our healthcare could easily be worse."

yep. We could have the Soviet version. Or the NK version.

Quote :

"But it's also obvious that we can't do away with gov. in the way the right likes to pretend "

I've never suggested that we do so. Nice strawman, though.

Quote :

"It's indisputable that the US dominated the 20th century."

True. But socialist programs are not why. Rather, it's that we let the major powers bomb each other to smitherenes and then WE cam in and let them pay us to rebuild. That's a recipe for success no matter how you slice it.

Quote :

"And we were MORE "socialist" during that time than we are now"

and look at the results of that socialism. It deepened a depression, no matter how much your revisionist history wants to suggest otherwise. And it also gave us the fantastic spectre of SS, which is bankrupting the nation. Are you really going to try and argue that that period was a fantastic success?

Quote :

"haha, tell that to the 20th century. You are being pretty delusional here."

You are the delusional one to think that being the only superpower who didn't bomb itself to the stone age is somehow indicative of a gov't success. If we had been within the reach of Hitler or Tojo's armies, we would have been just as devastated.

Quote :

"Health-care debt is not like that. You don't end up with some asset that can be repossessed if worse comes to worse."

So people don't normally have other assets they can sell off? really? If I can sell off a car to pay off a car debt (which I can't, but that is beside the point), then I can certainly sell off the very same car to pay off a healthcare debt.

1/21/2010 12:19:56 AM

Quote :

"and look at the results of that socialism. It deepened a depression, no matter how much your revisionist history wants to suggest otherwise. And it also gave us the fantastic spectre of SS, which is bankrupting the nation. Are you really going to try and argue that that period was a fantastic success? "

Except we instituted what you would deem to be MORE socialist programs as we exited, and thrived, after the great depression.

1/21/2010 12:23:31 AM

^ blithely ignoring the looming bankruptcy which is a direct result of all those commitments.

It's like someone runs on a credit card shopping spree and uses all their new toys to prove what a good strategy it is to swipe their card constantly... I mean, after all, look at all the cool stuff they've got! (nevermind the 60k credit card debt with 29% interest)

1/21/2010 12:26:10 AM

^ wrong

the debt didn't really start to ramp up until the rise of modern republicans constantly whining about social programs and taxes that started after the end of the 60s (hmm... what did THAT correspond with?)


THis graph needs to be viewed in the context of this one: http://www.sharkforum.org/taxthresh3.png

It's almost as if debt is inversely proportional to top marginal tax rate.

1/21/2010 12:29:59 AM

Almost as if it's directly proportional to the size of the population owed government benefits

1/21/2010 12:56:20 AM

Quote :

"So people don't normally have other assets they can sell off? really? If I can sell off a car to pay off a car debt (which I can't, but that is beside the point), then I can certainly sell off the very same car to pay off a healthcare debt. "

Genius. Now you're debt free right? Oh wait, now you're debt for the car, and you have no car.

The reason people can afford to buy cars and houses - the reason the bank is willing to lend you money - is the fact that such items can be repossessed. The slate can be wiped clean and everyone is back to square one with little loss. If not for that, the only people who could buy cars are the ones who can pay cash, in full, at the time of purchase. No bank is going to give you money for surgery unless you fully own 17k in liquid assets; most Americans do not have this.

1/21/2010 11:23:01 AM

http://www.carecredit.com/

Most hospitals will gladly work a reduced plan and payments.


My whole point about the line that medical is the MAIN reason for bankruptcy is that its the straw that breaks the camels back, not the reason. Its usually the gust of wind that knocks people off the financial tight rope they have been walking for years. Because, in all realities, 17k isnt that much money.

And someone mentioned if you got sick and couldnt work. Well, gasp, there is insurance you can buy for that too. Now if you choose to not get that insurance either, and take that risk, then face the consequences should something happen. Just the same with health insurance. People LOVE not having to pay monthly, saving that money, pissing it away on other things....then get sick and expect someone else to pay for it.

However, in no way should an insurance company be able to just drop you if you are paying your bill.

1/21/2010 11:50:20 AM

Quote :

"Except we instituted what you would deem to be MORE socialist programs as we exited, and thrived, after the great depression."

Again, we thrived not due to those programs. We thrived because EVERYONE ELSE WAS FUCKED UP BY THE WAR.

Quote :

"Genius. Now you're debt free right? Oh wait, now you're debt for the car, and you have no car. "

Ahh, so then you are saying they were already overextended then... Which, coincidentally, is what others have already said. That the health care bills were just the straw that broke the camel's back. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Quote :

"The reason people can afford to buy cars and houses - the reason the bank is willing to lend you money - is the fact that such items can be repossessed."

So then why is the hospital willing to "lend" the money for treatment? In essence, that is what they are doing, you know...

1/21/2010 8:07:29 PM

Quote :

"Ahh, so then you are saying they were already overextended then... Which, coincidentally, is what others have already said. That the health care bills were just the straw that broke the camel's back. Thank you for agreeing with me."

I'm not agreeing with you. You were arguing the opposite just earlier.

Quote :

"So then why is the hospital willing to "lend" the money for treatment? In essence, that is what they are doing, you know..."

Because they can't refuse to treat someone. Also, bailouts.

1/21/2010 11:40:30 PM

Quote :

"Almost as if it's directly proportional to the size of the population owed government benefits "

lol
nice try

population hasn’t been growing that fast: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42205000/gif/_42205846_us_population_bars416.gif

1/22/2010 12:06:47 AM

population != population owed government benefits

Quote :

"the debt didn't really start to ramp up until the rise of modern republicans constantly whining about social programs and taxes that started after the end of the 60s"

Odd, was not 1947 the last Republican congress we had until 1994?

1/22/2010 2:50:42 AM

Quote :

"I'm not agreeing with you. You were arguing the opposite just earlier."

patently false, dude. it's OK to admit you are full of shit.

Quote :

"Because they can't refuse to treat someone. Also, bailouts."

bullshit. All a hospital has to do is make sure someone doesn't die. Then they can ship them out.

1/22/2010 6:50:10 PM

1/22/2010 8:56:19 PM

Free penisword tattoos for all!

Now that's a plan we can all get behind.

1/22/2010 9:03:28 PM

ha its actually semi relevant

brock publicly shitted on canadas healthcare system and said the system we have in america is the best

ha, for the record i have no problem with the way health care is now

[Edited on January 22, 2010 at 9:13 PM. Reason : d]

1/22/2010 9:12:31 PM

Quote :

"our education system is in shambles, our transportation networks are falling apart, our energy grid is horribly outdated, and our healthcare is massively expensive."

Which countries around the world have better systems in place than we do and are less socialist than us?

Quote :

"If I can sell off a car to pay off a car debt... then I can certainly sell off the very same car to pay off a healthcare debt."

As Lumex suggested, if you are still paying off that car loan, then you are left with unpaid auto debt.

[Edited on January 23, 2010 at 4:13 PM. Reason : ]

1/23/2010 4:12:04 PM

^^

Quote :

"I like Brock Lesnar as a fighter. I'm sure someone will tell me why this is wrong."

hooksaw

message_topic.aspx?topic=576598&page=2

1/23/2010 4:23:57 PM

Quote :

"Which countries around the world have better systems in place than we do and are less socialist than us? "

To be fair, there are several countries that are "more socialist" than us by several measures, where things are worse.

Politics, contrary to what the republicans want us to think, isn't broken down into grades of socialism.

1/23/2010 5:49:58 PM

Quote :

"As Lumex suggested, if you are still paying off that car loan, then you are left with unpaid auto debt. "

And as I've already said, if you want to go that way, then you are suggesting that the problem was being over-extended in the first place. In other words, the healthcare wasn't what ultimately bankrupted them. Having too much debt in the first place did. Q.F.T.

Quote :

"Which countries around the world have better systems in place than we do and are less socialist than us?"

nice try. The point is that our systems are in shambles, and they all have massive gov't intrusion.

1/23/2010 6:02:07 PM

^^
I certainly understand that. I was just interested in what countries have systems (education, transportation, energy or health care) we would envy and are operated within governments that are less socialist than ours.

^
My question was legitimate.

As for the car loan scenario, someone who wants to purchase a seventeen thousand dollar vehicle actually needs to be able to afford thirty-four thousand dollars in case of medical emergency in order to remain under-extended?

1/23/2010 6:20:35 PM

Quote :

"As for the car loan scenario, someone who wants to purchase a seventeen thousand dollar vehicle actually needs to be able to afford thirty-four thousand dollars in case of medical emergency in order to remain under-extended?"

Yes actually. That's sort of the point of DTI calculations and credit worthiness ratings to determine whether or not you can afford the debt you're taking on and still afford life's little emergencies.

1/23/2010 6:32:02 PM

I contend that a car and healthcare are two fundamentally different things (see necessity v.s. luxury). And, from what I gather from the Medical Darwinists (tm) is, unexpected illness expenses are your on damn fault, unless you're debt free. Then you've got a right to complain ...

1/23/2010 6:42:09 PM

^^

If that were the case, wouldn't a loan originator need to know an applicant's susceptibility to various illnesses?

[Edited on January 23, 2010 at 6:44 PM. Reason : ^]

1/23/2010 6:43:01 PM

Quote :

"I contend that a car and healthcare are two fundamentally different things (see necessity v.s. luxury). And, from what I gather from the Medical Darwinists (tm) is, unexpected illness expenses are your on damn fault, unless you're debt free. Then you've got a right to complain ..."

17k is about 300 / month over 5-6 years. I would contend that most people who fall in the middle class and above income brackets should be able to easily come up with $300 / month in discretionary spending should the need arise. This may mean settling for a civic instead of a BMW and going with standard cable instead of HD digital cable with HBO and on Demand. It may also mean surrendering that iPhone plan with unlimited texting and possibly even dropping from highspeed internet to dialup. If they can't, then they are way too over extended.

Quote :

"If that were the case, wouldn't a loan originator need to know an applicant's susceptibility to various illnesses?"

You don't think they don't want to know? Believe me if it were legal for the bank to ask for your family medical records before giving you a mortgage they would.

1/23/2010 6:59:23 PM

Quote :

" Believe me if it were legal for the bank to ask for your family medical records before giving you a mortgage they would"

1/23/2010 7:03:43 PM

^^ Yes they could, except by that time they're out of a job, and they've been dropped by their insurance company ...

I do get the jist though. Unless you've lived a spotless life, it's survival of the fittest ... everyone else be damned. And I'm sure that 1337 b4k4, aaronburro, eyedrb, et. al. are unblemished ... (from the holier than thou sound of it anyway).

[Edited on January 23, 2010 at 7:12 PM. Reason : *~<]BO]

1/23/2010 7:04:46 PM

^ So everyone who racks up a medical bill loses their job and has their insurance company drop them? See this is the sort of overly emotional crap that gets us no where. While these things do happen they are the exception, not the rule. Further, at least for families, if you keep your mandatory payments (food, housing, electricity, insurance, debts) under 50% of your household income, in a worst case scenario you can get a temporary job at Burger King to pay the $300 / month medical bill while getting back on your feet.

Quote :

"And I'm sure that 1337 b4k4, aaronburro, eyedrb, et. al. are unblemished ... (from the holier than thou sound of it anyway). "

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not perfect. I've done the no insurance game, I've gambled with debts and lost, and I sure as hell don't have my mandatory expenses under 50% of my household income (though I am working towards that goal). The fact of the matter is though, most people (myself included) have bought into the consumer lifestyle and buy shit they don't need, that they can't afford with money that they don't have. Then when the shit hits the fan, they're screwed six ways to sunday. We make things too hard on ourselves, and the only way to stop that is to start recognizing the responsibility you have towards yourself and your health and wellbeing before anything else, and working to ensure that you satisfy those responsibilities. If you choose not to satisfy those responsibilities, you have no right to demand that others take care of you.

[Edited on January 23, 2010 at 7:26 PM. Reason : dfadfg]

1/23/2010 7:16:23 PM

^ You've got chronic illness, remember ...

1/23/2010 7:23:00 PM

^ I bet that not even 25% of the people who make up the 17k medical debt bankruptcy statistic meet the criteria of having a good DTI before the medical emergency, losing their job and insurance because of the emergency and having a chronic medical condition. Now you're just piling more emotional crap on. Policy and law should not be made around the edge cases.

[Edited on January 23, 2010 at 7:32 PM. Reason : asdf]

1/23/2010 7:32:16 PM

Quote :

"I contend that a car and healthcare are two fundamentally different things (see necessity v.s. luxury)."

and I contend that a debt is a debt is a debt is a debt is a debt

1/23/2010 9:59:27 PM

Quote :

"I bet that not even 25% of the people who make up the 17k medical debt bankruptcy statistic meet the criteria of having a good DTI before ..."

There you go. I'd be more convinced with with evidence, but it does show your preconceived bias (and ideology).

Quote :

"and I contend that a debt is a debt is a debt is a debt is a debt ... "

And there you go. And a bankruptcy is a bankruptcy is a bankruptcy. And that is what we've been talking about. How unexpected illness can push people into bankruptcy, partially because people in the United States pay more than twice as much as almost every other industrialized nation for health services. Also because, unlike almost every other civilized nation in the world, getting sick or losing your job can cause you to lose what little access to affordable healthcare you might have. Point taken ...


[Edited on January 23, 2010 at 11:33 PM. Reason : *~<]BO]

1/23/2010 11:30:34 PM

Quote :

"There you go. I'd be more convinced with with evidence, but it does show your preconceived bias."

ok, so what evidence has you believing otherwise?

Quote :

"How unexpected illness can people to bankruptcy"

only because people are OVER FUCKING EXTENDED. it's like you don't even bother to read what people are saying. you just say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

1/23/2010 11:32:23 PM

If you have ever seen a cancer patient get her money stripped because it was a "preconditioned illness" there would not even be a debate

1/23/2010 11:40:05 PM

and said patient has a case to be heard in court. breach of contract is not protected under any situation, dumbass

1/23/2010 11:42:25 PM

Quote :

"There you go. I'd be more convinced with with evidence, but it does show your preconceived bias (and ideology)."

And you've got no evidence to suggest that most people are going bankrupt, losing their jobs and insurance due to medical emergencies that despite being as prepared as reasonably possible for, they just couldn't make it. It makes for great emotional debate, but emotion doesn't make a good argument.

I on the other hand have a tech bubble, a housing bubble, massive government debts and bankruptcy, average car prices of 25k and average american credit card debt of 8-10k, to suggest that that americans don't know money management. Pick any random person on the street and I will bet you 2 out of 3 will be one or two missed paychecks away from financial ruin.

1/23/2010 11:48:53 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/health/policy/22health.html
"A New Search for Consensus on Health Care Bill"

Quote :

"Representative Gerald E. Connolly, Democrat of Virginia, said the 2,000-page House bill might have been "too much, too ambitious for an anxious public." But Mr. Connolly said, "Doing nothing is not a good option." Lawmakers, Congressional aides and health policy experts said the package might plausibly include these elements: * Insurers could not deny coverage to children under the age of 19 on account of pre-existing medical conditions. * Insurers would have to offer policyholders an opportunity to continue coverage for children through age 25 or 26. * The federal government would offer financial incentives to states to expand Medicaid to cover childless adults and parents. * The federal government would offer grants to states to establish regulated markets known as insurance exchanges, where consumers and small businesses could buy coverage. * The federal government would offer tax credits to small businesses to help them defray the cost of providing health benefits to workers. * If a health plan provided care through a network of doctors and hospitals, it could not charge patients more for going outside the network in an emergency. Co-payments for emergency care would have to be the same, regardless of whether a hospital was in the insurer's network of preferred providers. The package could also include changes in Medicare, to reduce the growth in payments to doctors and hospitals while rewarding providers of high-quality, lower-cost care. To help older Americans, it could narrow a gap in Medicare coverage of prescription drugs, sometimes known as a doughnut hole. Sara Rosenbaum, a professor of health law and policy at George Washington University, said the proposals were "totally doable" and could help perhaps 15 million people. "

If they do some kind of scaled back version of health care reform I'm glad that the idea of helping kids, and of making it so that young adults don't have to have a gap without insurance with college, their first job, and probationary period at work.

1/24/2010 7:20:45 AM

Where to start, Where to start ... Ok, let's start here:

Quote :

"ok, so what evidence has you believing otherwise? "

Do you know how intellectually bankrupt it makes you look when the only response you have to somebody asking you it back up your statements is to make a challenge for them to do your job for you? You make an assertion with no evidence, and when I ask you to back it up, you challenge me to prove you wrong? Let's just say, it makes you look something less than a college student.

And:

Quote :

"And you've got no evidence to suggest that most people are going bankrupt, losing their jobs and insurance due to medical emergencies that despite being as prepared as reasonably possible for, they just couldn't make it."

I have provided evidence. Remember this link: http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/06/health-care-bankruptcy-on-rise-medical-debt-medical-bills-how-to-avoid-bankruptcy.html ... and this quote:

Quote :

"unaffordable bills directly contributed to 92 percent of medical bankruptcies, and loss of income due to illness caused 40 percent. Many people lose their heath insurance after suffering an illness or injury. A quarter of businesses that offer health insurance cancel coverage immediately when an employee suffers a disabling illness, and 25 percent more cancel coverage within a year, according to the study."

Since you gentlemen seem incapable of doing your jobs and backing up your rabid ideology with facts, I will help you out. There is an "American Enterprise Institute" study out there that breaks down bankruptcies into those only caused by medical expenses and those caused by both medical and other debts. That study should be sufficiently ideologically biased to help you back up your claims. I've read it. Find it. Jeez, you've got to do something for yourselves.

Next:

Quote :

"and said patient has a case to be heard in court. breach of contract is not protected under any situation, dumbass"

If only your comprehension was at the level of your name calling. It is not breach of contract if you have a chronic illness, lose your job, and then either can't pay your premiums or have your insurance cancelled due to pre-existing conditions (see two quotes above). It's just a handy way for the insurance company to rig the game.

Finally, a combination of quotes from different people centering around a theme:

Quote :

"My whole point about the line that medical is the MAIN reason for bankruptcy is that its the straw that breaks the camels back ... The fact of the matter is though, most people (myself included) have bought into the consumer lifestyle and buy shit they don't need, that they can't afford with money that they don't have ... only because people are OVER FUCKING EXTENDED ... Pick any random person on the street and I will bet you 2 out of 3 will be one or two missed paychecks away from financial ruin."

I agree. Americans are generally over extended and a chronic or catastrophic illness will throw them over the edge. I just don't think that irresponsiblity should be a death sentence. I've expressed my opinion on the subject:

Quote :

"I do get the jist though. Unless you've lived a spotless life, it's survival of the fittest ... everyone else be damned. And I'm sure that 1337 b4k4, aaronburro, eyedrb, et. al. are unblemished ... (from the holier than thou sound of it anyway)."

At least aaronburro is willing to admit he's less than perfect (still waiting on the other guys). The question is whether you want to be punitive or whether you want to solve the problem. None of these arguments mitigates two indisputable facts, as demonstrated by this graph, that drive the need for healthcare reform:





1. People in the United States pay, on average, more than twice as much as almost every other industrialized nation in the world for health services.

2. Unlike almost every other civilized nation in the world, in America getting sick or losing your job can cause you to lose what little access to affordable healthcare you might have.

That's why I've coined the term "Medical Darwinism" to describe our current heathcare system.


[Edited on January 24, 2010 at 10:06 AM. Reason : *~<]BO]

1/24/2010 9:46:16 AM

Quote :

""unaffordable bills directly contributed to 92 percent of medical bankruptcies, and loss of income due to illness caused 40 percent. Many people lose their heath insurance after suffering an illness or injury. A quarter of businesses that offer health insurance cancel coverage immediately when an employee suffers a disabling illness, and 25 percent more cancel coverage within a year, according to the study.""

So the best number we have so far is about 36%( 40% of the 92% who's bills directly contributed) lose their income, and we can guess that maybe 50% of those that lose their income also lose their insurance, and are unable to get more (that is, their spouse has no insurance available, or they aren't already on their spouse's insurance). So 18% meet most of the criteria of your sob story. It's worth repeating since you don't seem to actually listen though, that I am 100% for making health insurance companies REAL insurance companies who continue to pay for covered events in perpetuity until such time as the covered individual dies, the covered event is cured, or the person reaches their contractual lifetime maximum limits.

None of that, however, changes the fact that better financial preparedness can make a dramatic difference. Some other numbers to chew on, despite the 17k average medical debt for bankruptcy, the actual breakdown is more interesting:

Quote :

"The medical debt causing these bankruptcies isn't overwhelming in many circumstances. Statistics available in 2003 are as follows: about 20% of bankruptcy filings involve a medical debt of less than $1,000; about 40% involve a medical debt of less than $5,000; and 13% of bankruptcy filings involve a medical debt of over $10,000. One would think these people could make some sort of payment arrangements to pay off the debt rather than file bankruptcy."

http://www.bcsalliance.com/y_debt_medical.html

Quote :

"I agree. Americans are generally over extended and a chronic or catastrophic illness will throw them over the edge. I just don't think that irresponsiblity should be a death sentence. I've expressed my opinion on the subject:"

How often is it really a death sentence though?

Quote :

"At least aaronburro is willing to admit he's less than perfect (still waiting on the other guys). The question is whether you want to be punitive or whether you want to solve the problem."

It's like you really don't read anything at all...

Quote :

" None of these arguments mitigates two indisputable facts, as demonstrated by this graph, that drive the need for healthcare reform: 1. People in the United States pay, on average, more than twice as much as almost every other industrialized nation in the world for health services. 2. Unlike almost every other civilized nation in the world, in America getting sick or losing your job can cause you to lose what little access to affordable healthcare you might have. "

And the proposed legislation does absolutely nothing to solve problem one, and almost nothing to solve problem two. Also, as I've said before, the only thing that graph tells you is that the amount of money spent on health care as almost no bearing on life expectancy. Note that Denmark spends almost twice as much as south korea and south korea has a better than average life expectancy, while demark has a below average.

[Edited on January 24, 2010 at 11:23 AM. Reason : dafd]

1/24/2010 11:23:14 AM

Quote :

"and said patient has a case to be heard in court. breach of contract is not protected under any situation, dumbass "

haha

so someone is dying of cancer and you expect them to go through a trial before they get treatment?

wow

and stateredneck has 30 posts… go easy on him, jeez…

Quote :

""I agree. Americans are generally over extended and a chronic or catastrophic illness will throw them over the edge. I just don't think that irresponsiblity should be a death sentence. I've expressed my opinion on the subject:" How often is it really a death sentence though?"

It’s very rarely an actual death sentence. China grew to 2 billion people with their crappy healthcare (but they have a naturally better diet than we have i would wager).

We’d just have gross, poor, sickly people walking around, having poor, dumb depressed children who aren’t ever able to contribute to society because they don’t know better.


[Edited on January 24, 2010 at 12:31 PM. Reason : ]

1/24/2010 12:25:27 PM

1337 b4k4, have you lost your mind? Why else would you post this stuff and think it proves your point? Base on your own calculations (which I think contains some "pull the numbers out of your ass" assumptions) more than a third of the people that file for bankruptcy where medical reasons are a contributing factor lose their income. And 50% lose their insurance within a year. And you're trying to make the case that since the worst case scenario only happens to 2 out of 10 people, it's not really a problem. Huh? Not to mention the other 74% that have varying degrees less then the worst case.

Next you post some statistics showing that people are declaring bankruptcy for small amounts (60% less than $5000 dollars). Did you even look at that website that you posted - past the first paragraph anyway? It answers the question about why the amounts are so small.

http://www.bcsalliance.com/y_debt_medical.html

Quote :

"Perhaps many file bankruptcy for the simple reason that the medical collection industry is so inflexible and will not work out reasonable payment plans for those who can not pay the debt off quickly. Instead, hospitals, doctors, and medical collection agencies rush to the courthouse to file small claim lawsuits (those less than $5,000). In fact, many small claims courts are clogged with such suits, with medical debt lawsuits making up a large portion of a court's docket. And this trend is only going to increase as many hospitals, doctors and other medical-related businesses turn their delinquent accounts over to collection agencies in 30 or 60 days rather than waiting the traditional 150 days before doing so. Another trend is for medical-related businesses to sue in small claims court for very trivial amounts, say $100, rather than just write the debt off as a bad debt."

And that is your own source. Hospitals are becoming so inflexible that people declare bankruptcy for small amounts just to keep them from garnishing what little income they have left after their illness. It's not hard with just a cursory search to find horror stories like this, where a kidney transplant recipient who has been paying per the agreement now finds that the hospital is threatening to garnish his unemployment benefits:

http://forum.freeadvice.com/debt-collections-84/garnish-unemployment-benefits-463435.html

You ask if I've read anything you've said. The answer is yes. You've spent pages and pages outlining the "1337 b4k4 healthcare reform plan", which as far as I can tell is nothing more an exercise in mental masterbation. It has nothing to do with what's being proposed, or what has a any chance of passing in the real world. It's just a kid on The Wolf Web spewing his uninformed opinions about what he thinks would be a good idea. Of course, I have restrained myself from even commenting on it. It has nothing to do with what's on the table, in the real world anyway.

Next, you say the graph shows nothing, and I would agree that you can not correlate the amount spent on healthcare with life expectancy without taking into account lifestyles. But, you are wrong about the graph. It does indeed show that the US spends twice as much, on average, as other industrial nations on healthcare, and that most civilized nations have realized that they need some kind of universal healthcare so that their citizens don't live in fear of getting sick.

Finally, as far as the proposals not solving problems goes, what do you expect? The Republicans and insurance companys have tried to strip out anything meaningful. A single payer plan for a basic level of birth to death healthcare coverage with the ability to buy up would be ideal - and would probably save money to boot. It would combine a basic healthcare safety net with freemarket coverage. The Australians have exactly that, at a reasonable cost, but we can't even pass a bill that makes it so insurance companies can't drop you when you get sick. You can't have it both ways. You can't obstruct anything meaningful and then complain that the bill doesn't do anything.

If I were you I would just drop out of this whole debate. You seem to keep putting yourself at a disadvantage.


[Edited on January 25, 2010 at 12:05 AM. Reason : *~<]BO]

1/24/2010 11:44:31 PM

aaron yeah except when it comes to renew. listen douche i know the facts of what happened to my mom. when she died after her stint in ICU she was over a million dollar in debt if you wanna know the exact details ask me personally id be happy to let ya know.

1/25/2010 12:24:18 AM

oh look, BoBo is posting that same graph that he has posted and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and 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and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over again, even though it's been thoroughly destroyed. Keep up the good work, douchebag

Quote :

"If only your comprehension was at the level of your name calling. It is not breach of contract if you have a chronic illness, lose your job, and then either can't pay your premiums or have your insurance cancelled due to pre-existing conditions (see two quotes above). It's just a handy way for the insurance company to rig the game."

you are a fucktard. the guy was talking about RECISION. Which has NOTHING TO DO WITH NOT BEING ABLE TO PAY. It has EVERYTHING to do with BREACH OF CONTRACT. which is precisely why I said as such.

Quote :

"haha so someone is dying of cancer and you expect them to go through a trial before they get treatment?"

absolutely not. Take them to court and get an immediate injuction that forces them to pay for treatment while the case is heard. Should be a pretty easy argument to make.

Quote :

"It has nothing to do with what's being proposed, or what has a any chance of passing in the real world."

So, no one else can come up with any ideas on how to fix things? what a fucking cop-out. You clearly aren't interested in discussing this, as you won't listen to ANYTHING that anyone has to say. You just keep posting the same fucking thing ad nauseum and consider that to be a valid "argument." Good work, douchebag

1/25/2010 1:22:51 AM