you need to call expecting to win the hand. I think he has one of three hands. QK like you and you split. AQ and you're surely beat. AJ and you've got him beat.

you can't check the river. that gives him a green light to bet no matter what he has to scare you out of the pot. I really woulda bet $60, he woulda reraised you to $120 probably and you would have saved $40(maybe).

you also can't fold. this may be a hand that he is taking advantage of his table image.

[Edited on October 13, 2005 at 7:14 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2005 7:13:55 PM

why dont we just open the fridge and ask jesus if we fold or not???!1

10/13/2005 8:24:47 PM

Ok, I don't do it much, but I gotta chime in here. And to clarify, there is $240 in the pot... never think about how much money YOU have put in the pot, always think in terms of how much money total is in it. So, this means that you're getting 3 to 1 on the call. Not that bad, especially with a boat.

HOWEVER, we must disregard Q7 as a possible hand for Tight Ted... no way he'd be playing that trash unless he's on a blind, and since Jim didn't say he was, I'll assume he wasn't. Therefore, the board is now AKQQx... this means the only hands Tight Ted could possibly have are AA, KK, KQ, or AQ. (ok, JT is an extremely slight possibility, but based on our info on him, there's virtually no chance he would've called the bet on the flop with that or raised on the river with it) KK is also only an extremely slim possibility b/c there was no sense in him calling on an AQQ flop... only an idiot thinks there's a chance KK is still good here.

So that leaves us with AA, AQ, or KQ... all of which tie or beat us! Tight Ted is just as likely to have limped with any of these hands since by the info Jim gave us, he most likely would not have raised with AA preflop. And his post-flop play would've been logical with all 3. However, I would find it much more logical here with AQ than KQ or AA. We've established that Loose Larry most likely folded his A, leaving only two left in the deck, strongly decreasing the odds of Ted having AA.

So I'm about 95% sure Ted had AQ or KQ... and based on the smooth calls all the way to the river where he didn't hesitate to put in a min-raise, I'm pretty sure he's got AQ.

Getting 3 to 1 on the call, I might be tempted to do it anyway, but remember... if we're right, and he only has KQ, we're only getting half the pot back anyway! Therefore, we're calling $80, hoping to get back our call and only $80 from the pot! Thus the call is a 1 to 1 proposition, and since we're pretty sure we're beat, this becomes a FOLD.

Sorry that was long-winded, but there you have it.

PS - yeah, he should've checked the river and hoped to only have to call $60 - 80 or so to find out if QK was good or not

10/13/2005 8:57:43 PM

What are some good sites for sports betting that also have poker? I have used SportsInteraction.com for sports betting in the past, and they have poker on there now, but i dont think it is all too big. I want one where both use the same bankroll.

10/13/2005 9:44:45 PM

Quote :

"The first pot I remember him winning was one in which he limped with JJ and took down 2 people with 2 pair after he flopped a set"

id like to hear about that hand too, how he bet after he hit his set.

cause i dont see why its almost certain that he had AQ

is it because so many people were in the hand?

10/13/2005 10:12:08 PM

I will replay the JJ hand the best I can. I am not sure about position, however this is basically what happened. 5 or 6 callers, flop is J10x, 2 spades. Dr. Bully bets out about $25, Tight Ted and Mr. X call. The river is the A of spades, completing both the flush and the nut straight. Dr. Bully goes all-in, Mr. X calls, and Tight Ted also calls. The river is a blank, Dr. Bully flips over J10, and Mr. X flips over A10, Tight Ted shows his JJ, and wins with the set.

I think in retrospect I have mislabeled Tight Ted. I believe he is more of a Passive Paul, or a player who will call with any decent hand, and seldom raises, even with premium hands.

Kudos to Jon Turner also. You pretty much put into words exactly what I was thinking after the turn. I have no idea why I bet on the river. It was not a good play on my part. I did call, despite my better judgment. This reminds me a lot of a hand we played a couple years ago Jon. Just a small cash game where we all bought in for about $50 or so. I remember this hand vividly. The flop was Qxx, 2 spades. Well, you bet out $4 and I just smooth call. The turn is a 3rd spade. You bet $10, I reraise to $20, you call. The river was a blank. You bet out $20, I go all in for about $35 more. You say to me, "I know you have the nuts, but I have to call" and flip over KJ of spades. Well, to make a long story short, I didn't have the nuts, just a Q that I severely misplayed.

I think the novice player in me really felt like I was beat but the male chauvinist would not allow me to make the fold. Like someone already said before, that would be a hand that left me wondering at night.

To make a long story short, I call. He flips over J10. I was shocked. You mentioned that was an outside possibility, but I never even remotely imagined that was what he was holding. I mean, other than running 89, he is drawing dead after the flop. Looking back I wish I would have reraised, but the fact of the matter is, I made the mistake of incorrectly characterizing him as a tight player when in all actuality he was very passive and far from tight. His call after the flush hit after 2 all-ins confirmed this. He was a slow roller, but he wasn't the type of player who knew how to make a smart fold, and not get involved chasing a straight or a flush when the board has already paired.

One thing I will say Jon, is that I have never ever met anyone who is better at figuring out what people have and making an intelligent fold. I remember seeing you lay down top set before, the nut flush, and many other laydowns to subpar players simply because you understood betting patterns and knew exactly what people likely had. That being said you're a shitty bluffer.

Anyways, I think that, although I won that hand and almost $800 on the night, I have found a hole in my game. That is figuring out players and labeling them. A call against an actual Tight Ted was a horrible call, but a call against a Passive Paul was quite justified. Luckily, my error turned out to be in my favor as I simply gave Paul too much credit.

10/13/2005 11:12:13 PM

i thought it sounded like someone on the internet drawing to a straight

they ALWAYS call call raise

[Edited on October 14, 2005 at 12:30 AM. Reason : .]

10/14/2005 12:30:07 AM

on pokerstars today, they were replaying parts of selected tournaments, and you could see all the cards on the table while they were out there. it was really awesome to see why ppl raised, or to watch them bluff and shit. i guess like kinda like watching it on tv, except much more fast paced.

10/14/2005 12:32:44 AM

would you guys have done something different here?

#Game No : 2875232087
***** Hand History for Game 2875232087 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:16578585 Level:3 Blinds (15/30) - Friday, October 14, 10:34:58 EDT 2005
Table $250 Players Club Freeroll(487678) Table #12 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: AlexNedelea ( $1650 )
Seat 2: gs01bpc ( $1855 )
Seat 3: cassdaddy ( $459 )
Seat 4: stingrayrush ( $3065 )
Seat 6: DALIQUIDATOR ( $1623 )
Seat 7: JK_SEVENS ( $7605 )
Seat 9: TMB59 ( $5858 )
Seat 10: joonedelam ( $870 )
Seat 5: bdg59 ( $4035 )
Trny:16578585 Level:3
Blinds (15/30)
There is no Small Blind in this hand as the Big Blind of the previous hand left the table.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stingrayrush [ Qd Ks ]
joonedelam folds.
AlexNedelea calls [30].
gs01bpc folds.
cassdaddy calls [30].
stingrayrush raises [60].
bdg59 calls [60].
DALIQUIDATOR folds.
JK_SEVENS calls [60].
TMB59 folds.
AlexNedelea calls [30].
cassdaddy calls [30].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 6h, 9c ]
AlexNedelea checks.
cassdaddy checks.
stingrayrush bets [100].
bdg59 calls [100].
JK_SEVENS calls [100].
AlexNedelea folds.
cassdaddy folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]
stingrayrush checks.
bdg59 checks.
JK_SEVENS bets [175].
stingrayrush raises [450].
cassdaddy: all in blind next hand?? anyone?
bdg59 calls [450].
JK_SEVENS calls [275].
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
stingrayrush bets [1500].
bdg59 calls [1500].
JK_SEVENS is all-In [6995]
stingrayrush is all-In [955]
bdg59 folds.
stingrayrush shows [ Qd, Ks ] three of a kind, queens.
JK_SEVENS shows [ 8d, 8h ] a full house, Eights full of queens.
JK_SEVENS wins 4540 chips from side pot #1 with a full house, Eights full of queens.
JK_SEVENS wins 8390 chips from the main pot with a full house, Eights full of queens.
Player stingrayrush finished in 345 place
stingrayrush has left the table.
Game #2875234575 starts.

i've had some absolutely shitty luck lately, so maybe there wasn't anything i could do. i thought the check raise would've pushed him out, but whatever. it was only 50 party points

[Edited on October 14, 2005 at 10:43 AM. Reason : .]

10/14/2005 10:39:34 AM

if you were willing to call his all in on the river why not go all in on the turn.

10/14/2005 12:31:25 PM

i guess in hindsight i should've, but i felt pretty confident i had the best hand, so i might as well get as many chips as possible

10/14/2005 12:57:24 PM

eh, going all-in isn't necessary. you want to get paid off, not take the pot down on the turn.

I probably would have bet a little less on the river, just because you're probably just going to get a fold or face an all-in with a bet like that. If you think you have the hand won, bet 500-600 and see if you can get some more chips. And if someone comes over the top, you haven't committed as much to the pot.

But I probably still would have called the all-in.

10/14/2005 1:14:53 PM

^^^^ You only doubled the bet preflop, raised 1/3 of the pot on the flop, and check-raised the turn. All your bets were value bets, and the check-raise could have been contrued as a bluff. Simply put you can bet stronger to avoid these suckouts, but otherwise it's this guy's perrogative to make bad calls. I'd bet more on the flop to knockout more players that can outdraw you.

Better to bet more and get one caller then bet a little and have multiple suckouts waiting for you. If people just fold, it probably wasn't worth letting them see another card anyway, since they'll only stick around if they hit the miracle card that beats you.

10/15/2005 7:50:18 AM

and its a freeroll. big raises dont mean shit.

anyways i came back to ask about this ad

who the fuck submitted this site

10/15/2005 10:44:52 PM

anyone want to split the referal bonus with me on empire poker.


37.5/37.5

10/15/2005 11:07:15 PM

im playing 100 pl oh on pp if anyone wants to join

10/16/2005 12:33:23 AM

ugh, had AK suited in hearts, lost to a bullshit flush on the river AFTER going all in the flop with 2 clubs and a king. i had like 1000 chips, so it would've crippled the other guy if he had missed it. people are such fucking morons

10/16/2005 4:23:42 PM

Finally won a sit-n-go after an ungodly drought.

It helps of course to flop the nut straight, with a straight flush draw, and have two players go all-in. Just like FeebleMinded's bad beat, the nut flush draw had only 5 outs. Lucky for me I wasn't sucked out...

***** Hand History for Game 2886564186 *****
15/30 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16637773) - Sun Oct 16 16:40:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 68013 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Gootz (1690)
Seat 2: debbies24 (1020)
Seat 3: crash1000 (770)
Seat 4: TMoney750 (435)
Seat 5: Kojack05 (1335)
Seat 6: skrummen (725)
Seat 8: degymngmt (770)
Seat 9: letsenjoy (615)
Seat 10: Bernard45 (640)
crash1000 posts small blind (10)
TMoney750 posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Kojack05 [ Th, Qh ]
Kojack05 calls (15)
skrummen calls (15)
degymngmt calls (15)
letsenjoy folds.
Bernard45 folds.
Gootz calls (15)
debbies24 calls (15)
crash1000 calls (5)
TMoney750 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8d, 9h, Jh ]
crash1000 bets (755)
crash1000 is all-In.
TMoney750 folds.
Kojack05 raises (1320) to 1320
Kojack05 is all-In.
skrummen folds.
degymngmt folds.
Gootz folds.
debbies24 calls (1005)
debbies24 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 2s ]
Creating Main Pot with $2370 with crash1000
Creating Side Pot 1 with $500 with debbies24
Creating Side Pot 2 with $315 with Kojack05
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2370 | Side Pot 1: 500 | Side Pot 2: 315
Board: [ 8d 9h Jh Kc 2s ]
Gootz balance 1675, lost 15 (folded)
debbies24 balance 0, lost 1020 [ Ah 8h ] [ a pair of eights -- Ah,Kc,Jh,8h,8d ]
crash1000 balance 0, lost 770 [ Qd Js ] [ a pair of jacks -- Kc,Qd,Js,Jh,9h ]
TMoney750 balance 420, lost 15 (folded)
Kojack05 balance 3185, bet 1335, collected 3185, net +1850 [ Th Qh ] [ a straight, nine to king -- Kc,Qh,Jh,Th,9h ]
skrummen balance 710, lost 15 (folded)
degymngmt balance 755, lost 15 (folded)
letsenjoy balance 615, didn't bet (folded)
Bernard45 balance 640, didn't bet (folded)





Heads up I used a Hellmuth-like style, trying to flop monsters and catch my opponent stealing. Unfortunately my opponent either outflopped me or I missed completely for a good long while. He had me down low, and a couple of timely bluffs did the trick. I finally caught him reraising with QJ suited, my AQ took him down....

10/16/2005 5:44:41 PM

i fucking hate 9 player tables online. its almost guaranteed that someone has a slightly better hand than you. i just lost to a KJ when i had a QJ. just pisses me off

10/16/2005 9:40:59 PM

That's why you don't play QJ.

If you really really want to i prove your game and win consitently, I would recommend reading a book by Daugherty/McEvoy called "No Limit Texas Hold 'Em." It's a book in the New Player series.

One thing that the book discusses is the relative strength of starting hands. New players (and even "seasoned" players) tend to overvalue a hand where they see two face cards. I have NO idea what happened in the hand where you had QJ vs KJ, but I really only see one of two scenarios.

Scenario 1: Everyone limps in a pot and you flop top pair. Let me tell ya, top pair in an unraised pre-flop pot is nothing but shit.

Scenario 2: Someone raises and you call and hit top pair. Let's think about this. If someone is raising and a J falls, and they keep raising, what do you think they have? Either an overpair (AA, KK, QQ, or God forbid JJ), AJ, or KJ. Nobody (or nobody that will keep their money) raises with QJ or J10 preflop. So if they are betting, they are either trying to buy the pot, or you are beat.

And on the subject of bluffing, let's talk real quick. I know probably everybody on here loves to watch the WPT and see some pro make an awesome read and call some guy's bluff. The next step is obviously to take your new found poker prowess and play poker online. So then people deposit some $$ and then consistently lose it trying to make some awesome "read" and call someone on a huge bluff.

The only problem is you cannot READ people online. You can establish betting patterns and label players as being solid, wreckless, passive, ect, but the true art of reading comes from actually looking at a player and watching their physical behaviour and mannerisms. The only way to consistently win online is to play solid, raising on premium hands, not calling with weak hands (ie QJ), and knowing when to fold. I guess i'm done for now.

10/16/2005 10:16:37 PM

Quote :

"And on the subject of bluffing, let's talk real quick. I know probably everybody on here loves to watch the WPT and see some pro make an awesome read and call some guy's bluff. The next step is obviously to take your new found poker prowess and play poker online. So then people deposit some $$ and then consistently lose it trying to make some awesome "read" and call someone on a huge bluff. The only problem is you cannot READ people online. You can establish betting patterns and label players as being solid, wreckless, passive, ect, but the true art of reading comes from actually looking at a player and watching their physical behaviour and mannerisms. The only way to consistently win online is to play solid, raising on premium hands, not calling with weak hands (ie QJ), and knowing when to fold. I guess i'm done for now."

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

keep that shit on the DL man, not everyone needs to know that.

10/16/2005 10:26:44 PM

so the last few sundays ive taken a liking to watching the final tables of the stars and party 500k mtts.

(i never last long in them unfortunately)

its very interesting.

10/17/2005 12:13:52 AM

I've been playing at the Bicycle Casino a lot lately, 40 nl and 100 nl.

Last 5 times I played I've won at least a hundred. Its all about patience. If you play top-10 hands, you are almost guaranteed to win money. If you throw in some suited connectors and the occasional bluff from playing so tight, it pays off pretty well.

10/17/2005 12:34:44 AM

http://cardplayer.com/poker-tournaments/event.php?id=2975&screen=result

congrats turner. hookers for everyone.

10/17/2005 10:14:05 AM

Quote :

"The only way to consistently win online is to play solid, raising on premium hands, not calling with weak hands (ie QJ), and knowing when to fold."

amazing how that one sentence made me $60 this morning

10/17/2005 10:26:40 AM

^

My biggest money making advice was not playing weak aces or really even starting with A 8 and such, unless you are the blind

10/17/2005 10:56:30 AM

yeah i don't anymore. i'll basically play any pocket pair (unless its a low pair behind a big raise), high face cards, or suited connectors

10/17/2005 11:06:55 AM

Quote :

"My biggest money making advice was not playing weak aces or really even starting with A 8 and such, unless you are the blind "

10/17/2005 11:15:48 AM

What does everyone think about calling an all in with A K when you are sure you have over cards and are just up against a smaller pair? I think my new philosophy is going to be only use going all in with AK as a way to get people out when someone else is all in with small stack.

10/17/2005 11:35:46 AM

i would. just from watching WSOP, its basically a coin flip between AK and a smaller pair

10/17/2005 12:15:36 PM

Yeah but if you bet your entire stack to a coin flip eventually you are going to go busted.

10/17/2005 12:18:32 PM

yeah, but this is against a short stack right?

10/17/2005 12:43:43 PM

No, I meant I would do it against a short stack, but this specific question is about a large stack preflop.

10/17/2005 12:59:43 PM

oh i see what you're saying. i dunno, it would be a tough call

10/17/2005 1:07:14 PM

basically it depends on your situation in the tournament. if you are dwindling on chips and the blinds are high, sometimes you have to take the coinflip. if you get too low, you don't have enough force behind raises to scare out opponents. so sometimes you have to take a 50/50 chance.

but if you have chips and the blinds aren't eating away at your stack too bad, ect. it's not that hard to lay AK down.

[Edited on October 17, 2005 at 1:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/17/2005 1:32:17 PM

Phil LOLlins says:

Well, it really depends on how much the raise is but i mean it also depends on your ambitions of where u want to finish in the tourney. i mean hellmuth has folded top 2 b4 in the wsop b/c he knew the longer he stays the better his chances are as a premiere player.
if you think you may be at a table with better players than yourself its a good call but if not mebbe u can pick a better spot so thats my analysis

what about cash?
well then its completely pot odds if its laying you the right price, then yes unless you make a great read on the guy.
and it also depends on the amount you are comfortable with putting in

10/17/2005 1:36:26 PM

going all in pf with AK in a cash game consistantly is just plain out dumb.

you are a dog to any pocket pair.

you are a huge dog to AA/KK.

if you have enough of a read to know that AK is the best hand, then you would be solid enough to outplay the opponent post flop, after you know if you hit something or not.



I used to justify calling large raises and all ins with AK in cash games by saying that the dead money in the pot took care of the loss of equity against a pair.

this is incorrect most of the time and esp. the times that youll be up against AA/KK.

Looking for holes in pokertracker, i found this a few years ago, while still trying to learn the basics game. For some reason AKo and AKs were my biggest losers.. then realizing how big of a dumbass i had been for calling/going all in with the hand.

tournament situations are entirely different than cash games, and espn has polluted the minds of many.


If you hold beleif in pot control, AA is the only hand worthy of pushing preflop. I even hesitate with KK, but many solid players would push.

Theres a section in the Caffione & Stewart polt-limit/no-limit holdem book that details this.

Its a good read, and its pretty quick, id suggest it to any plo,pl7cs,pl27td, or pl/nl holdem player.

10/17/2005 4:19:28 PM

I agree totally with what pilgrimshoes posted.

Personally, I hate AK, but it is truly a tough hand to lay down preflop, especially if it's suited (even though I know the fact it is suited makes little difference. One of the most common questions I see on here is "What would you do in "x" situation." That is such a loaded question because unless I am actually seated at the table and have a good idea what a player has and what he might be playing, it is nearly impossible to answer.

Let's say I have $300 in front of me and I'm dealt AK suited at a $1/$2 table. As I always do with premium hands, I raise to $17 (unless I am first to act, then I sit back for the reraise). Now, let's say that, following my raise, someone reraises me to $80 (let's say he has me covered too). Do I call? Go all-in? Fold? It all depends.

You have to ask yourself, what hands do people reraise with? AA, KK, QQ, AK, or maybe AQ. Notice that in almost every one of these hands, I'm a big dog. Even if this guy is on an all-out bluff and playing 7/2 offsuit, I really have no desire to risk my hard earned money on a 65-35 hand. In nearly any situation, I fold. I suppose the one exception would be if there is a loose cannon at the table who has been doing crap like that all night. Still, I never like to fall into the trap of believing bad players can not get good cards. I would personally rather outplay my opponents following a flop rather than leave my fate up to chance.

10/17/2005 6:11:48 PM

I don't reraise most of the time unless I for whatever reason want it to end right there (a lot of people in the pot or whatever). If someone else raises big preflop and you call and are holding AA chances are you will have them the whole time.

I guess I was justified in not going all in with AK anymore

10/17/2005 7:09:18 PM

how do yall handle middle pocket pairs (6's - 9's) pre-flop? i get nervous raising with them just because there's so much that can beat them

10/17/2005 8:51:13 PM

Depends on the table for me. If its a tight table, I will raise a little to weed out some marginal hands, and maybe make a bet on the flop if I am up against 1 or 2 other players and hope they fold and I win it there if over cards come etc... If its a loose table, I usually just call if there has not been a raise, and hope I trip. If not, I am usually done with the hand.

10/17/2005 9:19:14 PM

If there is a substancial raise, I will fold them unless there are multiple callers and I am last to act. If I hit, those things can pay big. I rarely raise preflop with them, I would much rather just limp and hit a set and take down some dumbass with top pair.

10/17/2005 10:17:19 PM

i think i've gotten surviving down pretty well, now i just need to work on bluffing. i just placed 103 in a partypoker tournament of 1800 just playing big hands. i don't think i bluffed at all, and if i did it was a semi bluff. added to that i didn't get many big hands, so i basically got blinded to death

10/17/2005 10:38:02 PM

You have Asteroids?

Nope, but my dad does. Can hardly get off the toilet sometimes.

Oops, wrong thread

[Edited on October 17, 2005 at 11:03 PM. Reason : .]

10/17/2005 11:03:39 PM

I lost like a motherfucker today playing 100nl at Hawaiian Gardens.

JJ lost to AJ on the flop
AJ lost to K7 on the river (opponent was all in)
AK lost to 7's, trips on the flop
QQ lost to AJ on the flop (he put me all in before the flop and hit the ace)

shitty luck and shitty play.

10/17/2005 11:23:24 PM

Ummm....the two hands you were a favorite to win, it wasn't buy much, in the other two, you were the underdog. I guess you summed it up best "Shitty luck, and shitty play"

10/17/2005 11:28:03 PM

he was up in three btw

10/17/2005 11:39:37 PM

^^aha you just pwnt yourself

[Edited on October 17, 2005 at 11:43 PM. Reason : learn your probabilities, negro]

10/17/2005 11:41:12 PM

careful there

JJ lost to AJ on the flop
so you were ahead preflop but the Ace on the flop must have made you shutdown, you can't lose much on this hand.

AJ lost to K7 on the river (opponent was all in)
this sucks but I don't know the betting pattern and what actually happened.

AK lost to 7's, trips on the flop
again you shouldn't lose much on this hand unless you hit two pair or something.

QQ lost to AJ on the flop (he put me all in before the flop and hit the ace)
ok

10/17/2005 11:57:03 PM

I was ahead on 3 of these hands pre-flop, and 50/50 on the other (AK suited vs 77)

I was betting a decent amount pre-flop to discourage people from limping in. Thats how I lost a chunk of chips on the first and 3rd hands. No big deal, but its exemplary of the kind of luck I was getting.

2nd hand I had top pair after the turn and made a big bet to protect my hand. Bitch goes all in with kings and hits the magic 7 on the river.


maybe I need to limp into more hands and hope for some big pots.


[Edited on October 18, 2005 at 12:17 AM. Reason : !]

10/18/2005 12:13:23 AM