From what i heard, the senate bill will be passed in the house, what they'll use reconciliation for is some amendments to the bill
so the whole nonsense that they're jamming the whole bill through reconciliation is false

[Edited on February 28, 2010 at 5:46 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2010 5:46:50 PM

true, however, if the repubs were trying this kind of tactic, the dems and mslm would be touting the same misinformation so all's fair.

2/28/2010 5:48:25 PM

hey i'm solinari. i'm touting misinformation. but it's okay because i'm pretty sure democrats would do the same thing!

2/28/2010 6:42:22 PM

spin is spin.

didn't see you giving a damn back when dems were crying bloody murder over busting judicial filibusters.

2/28/2010 6:47:21 PM

do you see me crying bloody murder now? i say what the republicans are doing: obstructing. it's in their best interest to make the president look powerless to get the agenda he was elected on accomplished.

i do think the filibuster rules don't help things. much of it has the effect of delaying legislation and wasting everyone's time. for instance: jobs bill in the senate only got 62 (i think) votes for cloture. while it got 70 votes for passage. that is obstructionism. but it is within their power.

2/28/2010 6:55:10 PM

I don't think Pelosi has the votes for even the senate bill. it will be interesting to see what happens

2/28/2010 7:10:45 PM

Quote :

"true, however, if the repubs were trying this kind of tactic, the dems and mslm would be touting the same misinformation so all's fair."

i dont remember these tactics when bush passed tax cuts using reconciliation
and i wondered how bush got some of his bills passed without controlling congress

2/28/2010 7:32:05 PM

awesome video about healthcare reform, lol

http://www.videosift.com/video/We-are-the-world-Healthcare-reform-version

2/28/2010 8:41:17 PM

I watched this whole motherfucker this weekend. Not a whole lot of dynamite moments, but two things:

1. Fuck John Boehner.

2. Obama shit all over Barrasso:

Quote :

"THE PRESIDENT: Let me just—there's one thing I've got to—there are a number of issues, as usual, that I've got significant difference with. I'm just am curious. Would you be satisfied if every member of Congress just had catastrophic care? Do you think we'd be better health care purchasers? I mean, is that a change that we should make? SENATOR BARRASSO: Yes, I think actually we would. We'd really focus on it. You'd have more, as you say, skin in the game—and especially if they had a savings account, a health savings account. They could put their money into that— THE PRESIDENT: Would you feel the same way if— SENATOR BARRASSO: —and they'd be spending the money out of that. THE PRESIDENT: Would you feel the same way if you were making $40,000, or you had—that was your income? Because that's the reality for a lot of folks."

3/1/2010 11:25:15 AM

oh come on seriously? f john boehner? Why not F pelosi or harry reid? They did 10x worse job than boehner.

3/1/2010 11:39:21 AM

David Brooks made an excellent point the other day-- the quality of discussion increased exponentially the further you got from each side's leadership.


But Boehner takes the cake. His role seemed to be to remind everyone that they weren't to compromise on anything.

...and he was looking especially orange.

3/1/2010 12:27:20 PM

arent like half of people who have HSAs making under 50k?

HSAs are the way to go. But what would a doctor know Mr President, Im sure your community organizing gave you further insight on what is happening in health care.

3/1/2010 12:33:41 PM

What would a doctor know? Fuck my physician if he recommends an HSA over reformed insurance. Dude makes like four times what I do and gets a discount for trade.

As for why fuck John Boehner: the taxpayer-funded abortion red herring, the "clean sheet of paper" talking point, argumentum ad populum, the lie that the threat of malpractice lawsuits is the biggest cost driver in health care, and the lie that the current proposal will "bankrupt this country."

3/1/2010 12:50:25 PM

The only thing Boehner brought to the table was start over, scrap it, clean sheet of paper, step by step, and he made sure to pass those talking points around to everyone.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

3/1/2010 12:53:46 PM

Here is a good article for you to read Frosh

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704231304575091600470293066.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion


Its clear both teams had thier pregame huddle before this.

Republicans, wanted to focus on starting over. Use doctors and expose the numbers and costs.

Democrats, wanted to 1. thank the president for doing this 2. Say "how close we are" 3. Tell some sob story.

Republicans were actually using numbers and the bill itself, which was then rebutted by a made up story by the president or some emotional plea about a woman using her dead sisters dentures. hahah

You might not like it, but the republicans were very well prepared. Which surprised me.

And you think "scrap the bill" is worse than "premium discrimination" or "insurance SEGREGATION". lol

[Edited on March 1, 2010 at 1:01 PM. Reason : .]

3/1/2010 12:57:03 PM

here's a good article for you to read

Quote :

"Fuck You and Your HSA Raleigh, NC—Wolf Web commentator FroshKiller weighed in today on the Republicans' assertion that health savings accounts and catastrophic care make for sound health & financial planning. "Fuck you," said the polemical pundit. "Don't act like letting me spend a year's contributions to my fucking retirement to cover my ridiculously high deductible is doing me a favor." Under current legislation, health savings accounts are available only to individuals with qualifying high-deductible plans, which critics argue do not adequately accommodate low- to middle-class families. When asked for further comment, FroshKiller added: "Faggot.""

3/1/2010 1:04:16 PM

Froshkiller needs health insurance so let's bankrupt the nation with 3000 page bill instead of incrementally fixing the system in a more systematic way.

It's like mistake #1 that novice programmers make... They look at some code that needs improvement and think, "oh god what a horrible mess. I should just chuck this all out the window and start from scratch"

3 years later their code is more of a mess and still not even to the level of performance that the original delivered.

Completely restructuring the entire health care industry with thousands of pages of backroom deals and giveaways is a bad idea.

3/1/2010 1:21:46 PM

LOL at the idea that coming to the table with "clean sheet of paper" equals "well prepared"

3/1/2010 1:26:26 PM

Froshkiller

Quote :

"Dude makes like four times what I do "

And I think you have demostrated why.


Supplanter, I think you must have missed all the parts about paying for this bill and how it does nothing to lower costs or "bend the curve". I also imagine you missed all the talk about HSAs and the need to engage consumers with prices. But to each his own.

3/1/2010 1:31:28 PM

yes, proposing to scrap the bill is obviously cynical, but don't act all butt hurt over a little cynicism... the dems have been sowing these seeds for a year plus with their refusal to budge over interstate insurance trade or tort reform.

3/1/2010 1:31:43 PM

DAMN I GUESS YOU TOLD ME

3/1/2010 1:32:04 PM

frosh, do you want this bill passed because of its title or do you want it passed because you support its content

3/1/2010 1:33:06 PM

content

expanded coverage is great

it's the furthest the feds have ever gotten with this issue

it's not perfect

it's not even pretty

but good ideas have to start somewhere

if it turns out to suck, reform the legislation

is that difficult or

3/1/2010 1:36:11 PM

President Obama endorsing some level of interstate insurance purchasing, and explaining the need for protections to go along with that:



President Obama endorsing some level addressing medical malpractice but recognizing its hardly a silver bullet in cutting health insurance costs:

3/1/2010 1:41:17 PM

so the whole doing something is better than nothing?

I would argue, in this case it isnt.

And it is difficult to reform these entitlements. Look how great Medicare, SS, and Medicaid are, and how tough it is to reform those. So we just continue to head towards the cliff, and now we think hitting the gas is the only way to go.

3/1/2010 1:41:38 PM

yeah fuck you anyway

pass it

it'll be great

3/1/2010 1:44:58 PM

A very intelligent, thoughtout response. LOL

3/1/2010 1:47:35 PM

Quote :

"content expanded coverage is great it's the furthest the feds have ever gotten with this issue it's not perfect it's not even pretty but good ideas have to start somewhere if it turns out to suck, reform the legislation is that difficult or"

A lot of aspects of this bill are really good, I agree. And I agree that something has to be done. Here's why I oppose this bill. I firmly believe that this bill has been crafted in such a way as to drive health insurance companies out of business. I believe that this is a deliberate strategy so that in 5-7 years when only a few insurance companies are left struggling to survive and providing a horrible product, the federal gov. will come riding in on its white stallion saying, "see... I told you single payer was the right solution" At which point, we will have almost no choice but to accept it.

I agree with this bill only on its most superficial appearance. I vehemently oppose it on the knowledge of for what it is laying the groundwork (hat tip: grammer nazi).

3/1/2010 1:47:47 PM

i'd rather look out for the interests of the currently uninsured or underinsured

fuck the insurer right now

also if you're right

let the republicans save the day later

who cares

i want my brother to be able to go to the doctor

[Edited on March 1, 2010 at 1:50 PM. Reason : for]

3/1/2010 1:50:12 PM

and your brother cant go see a doctor? Honestly?


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/03/warren_buffet_health_care_bill.html

Here is another right winger saying to scrap the bill and work on reducing costs. And whats a great way of doing that? HSAs.

3/1/2010 1:52:00 PM

would you like my brother to visit the emergency room for primary care at your expense

because that can happen

3/1/2010 1:55:01 PM

then what's so damn urgent

Quote :

"who cares"

I agree - that's pretty much the attitude someone has to have in order to support this bill.. And that's the attitude one perceives of the authors when they look at the stack of 2000 pages.


[Edited on March 1, 2010 at 1:59 PM. Reason : s]

3/1/2010 1:57:11 PM

i just really really want to look at an exchange brochure

[Edited on March 1, 2010 at 1:57 PM. Reason : and order from the menu]

3/1/2010 1:57:34 PM

your brother can go to any doctor he wants now.

ehealthinsurance.com

There is a menu you can look at to shop for insurance. All different kinds, even HSAs. Tell your brother.

3/1/2010 1:59:24 PM

ITT wondering if Frosh is familiar with the "grass is greener on the other side" parable.

3/1/2010 2:00:57 PM

THOSE GRAPES ARE PROBABLY SOUR ANYWAY

3/1/2010 2:06:44 PM

well in this case, we KNOW they are, but "I don't care" right?

3/1/2010 2:16:53 PM

i don't complain about how sour the grapes are when i'm hungry, son

[Edited on March 1, 2010 at 2:18 PM. Reason : and anyway they ripen]

3/1/2010 2:17:14 PM

vinegar

3/1/2010 2:32:53 PM

beats starving to death

3/1/2010 2:33:57 PM

"I don't care"

3/1/2010 2:43:57 PM

Another great article today

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/03/01/high-deductible_health_insurance_104597.html


"Today, of every dollar spent on health care in this country, just 13 cents is paid for by the person actually consuming the goods or services. Roughly half is paid for by government, and the remainder is covered by private insurance. And, as long as someone else is paying, consumers have every reason to consume as much health care as is available."

3/1/2010 2:50:28 PM

Quote :

" LOOKING ESPECIALLY ORANGE "

lol

3/1/2010 2:53:27 PM

^^The implication "When health-care is too cheap, people will consume too much" is plausible in theory, but real-world data does not support it.

3/1/2010 3:05:10 PM

MY GOD WE ARE EXPERIENCING A NATIONAL WATER SHORTAGE

3/1/2010 3:08:13 PM

I would disagree. I cant tell you how many of my patients WAIT until they get on medicare or medicaid.

And as the percentage of those covered under insurance, and esp the govt, has increased so has the costs.

This will help open up competition between docs and hospitals as well as lower our operating expense. The key will be to offer protection to doctors if a patient denies a test. Simply coming back and saying "they didnt understand HOW important it was" isnt going to cut it. If you dont docs will have to do the test for nothing for some, and charge more for others.

From the article:

"In fact, a study by Amy Finklestein of MIT suggests that nearly half of the per capita increasing health care spending is due to increased health insurance coverage.

No one is suggesting that people shouldn't have insurance. But insurance is ultimately meant to spread the risk of catastrophic events, not to simply prepay your health care. Your homeowners insurance covers you if your house burns down. It doesn't pay to mow your lawn or paint the fence."

Frosh, go read your comics. Adults are talking.

3/1/2010 3:10:24 PM

THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED IF THE JUSTICE LEAGUE REALLY EXISTED

3/1/2010 3:13:11 PM

haha, I agree. Superman doesnt even need health care.

Seriously, sorry for that "insult". That was tacky of me.

3/1/2010 3:18:50 PM

Perhaps catastrophic care and an HSA would make sense for Superman, whose personal health care expenses are generally super-low because he only has to worry about Kryptonite. He'd be fine saving up for a while and only paying out when he needs treatment for Kryptonite exposure.

Most of us are not Superman.

3/1/2010 3:23:28 PM

Most of us stay healthy for a number of years. Thus building up the amount in our HSAs during healthy years. It wont take long before this tax free money is more than enough to cover your deductible.

What it does is forces people to ask what does this cost? As they now are the ones writing hte check. This also will put market pressure on doctors, as they are now competiting for your business instead of being funneled in by insurance companies. It also helps us lower operating expenses as we lose so many man hours and money just dealing with insurances and trying to get paid for work already performed.

You would still have medicaid for the poor. (hopefully, some politicians will get some balls and cut some of those services to save thier states)

3/1/2010 3:46:34 PM