Well, no shit.

Learn something new every day.

2/25/2009 7:05:54 PM

So when are we going to schedule the next 'Wolf Web Range Day'?

2/25/2009 7:49:48 PM

If I can get 10 people, then we can get PDHSC to ourselves on a Monday night after hours. (6pm till)
Their group range rate is the normal fees, but you get the range to yourself[group].
I can set this up for some time next month if I can get confirmations that people will show up.

If not, I'm there every week on either Tues or Thurs.

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 8:02 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2009 8:01:53 PM

I'm out if it's weekdays, but weekends I can do.

2/25/2009 8:40:40 PM

Quote :

"this is the thing i don't get about this run on guns. if there is a ban on gun ownership, it won't matter if you have 1 gun or 500, they will be taken away."

I know its a fictional book, but I have a feeling the book "Enemies Foreign and Domestic" is about right on the money with regards to what will happen if there is a ban on gun ownership.

I mean, look at the ammo cases at Wally World......people are stocking up.

2/25/2009 8:49:01 PM

i'm down for a group thing and pdhsc, just let me know when
hopefully i will be picking up my first gun this week

2/25/2009 9:25:30 PM

Read: Unintended Consequences by John Ross.

It's well written and points out most of the missteps that have happened that has landed us where we are today. Corruption, ignorance and apathy are at the top of the list.
---------------------
A conversation came up at work where one person claimed that they were not against all gun ownership, just 'assault' rifles.

I asked them what their definition of 'assault' rifles were and they said they meant all rifles that looked like the ones the military used.

I made a point to clairify that assault rifles are typically select-fire not semi-auto.

They then said that keeping a gun in your house makes it more likely that it will be used against you. I countered that by asking them if they were going to get rid of all the knives, scissors, letter openers, etc... in their home. It makes no sense that people believe that one type of inanimate object will hurt them more than any other, if left alone. They don't seem to think that people should be held responsible for their actions.

I won't get into the rest of the inaccurate information from this person, but rest assured that for every one person that takes the time to educate themselves about the laws, there are 1000000000 people ignorant and misinformed.

People are so ignorant of everything now a days.

There was one argument that they brought up that got me thinking:

Where do the criminals get the guns.

From what I've read:

1. law enforcement.
2. citizens.
3. importation.

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 10:10 PM. Reason : v]

2/25/2009 10:05:09 PM

Sounds like you remained level headed. I usually just make them feel stupid and/or question their parental lineage.

2/25/2009 10:10:42 PM

Hell I might even show up to a TWW range day, depends on the time and how much shit I have going on at that point though

2/26/2009 12:44:28 AM

Quote :

"The Obama administration will seek to reinstate the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 during the Bush administration, Attorney General Eric Holder said today."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

2/26/2009 9:22:56 AM

i kinda figured that considering his anti-gun stance. obama wants to ban any weapon that look like the ones the military uses, like george bush did back in the day.

silly.

2/26/2009 9:43:28 AM

Quote :

"I am writing today to express my great concern, both for my rights as a citizen of the United States, and for the ominous direction our country could very well take while under the direction of President Obama and Attorney General Holder. According to comments made by AG Holder on February 25th, the Obama administration will seek to reinstate the so-called "Assault Weapons Ban," closure of a "gun show loophole," and the banning of "cop-killer bullets," amongst an almost assuredly larger amount of restrictive feel-good legislation that will seek only to further limit the rights of myself and my fellow citizens in direct violation of the clear language of the 2nd Amendment. The last "Assault Weapons Ban" did NOTHING to limit crime. The majority of the focus was placed upon aesthetics of a firearm, not the actual lethality of it. It also banned some guns by name outright, just due to their notoriety. However, the biggest farce of all was that it was focused ONLY on semi-automatic weapons, which are the a good majority of firearms out there. AG Holder has gone on further to mention that part of the reasoning behind this was to render a convoluted form of aid to Mexico, as they claim "sophisticated guns" coming from the United States are leading to high levels of violence in their own country with the drug cartels. Are my rights really subject to limitations and endangerment because a neighboring country lacks the resources and fortitude to maintain law and order? If so, I certainly apologize; I didn't realize we had accepted Mexico into our nation. The supposed "gun show loophole" that is mentioned is nothing but absolute conjecture and farce. As many citizens can do everyday in the states across this nation, gun shows do allow for face-to-face transactions amongst private parties. However, all dealers STILL run background checks and conduct business as normal at these events; therefore, I can only guess that the loophole they seek is to put an end to face-to-face transactions, which would not only fall as being a state's right to limit, but also be a direct violation of the 2nd Amendment, as well as a violation of privacy for all citizens. Guns outnumber vehicles in the United States, yet we have many times more incidences of serious injury and death from vehicles than guns. Last I checked, I could still sell a car privately in this country. What is this grab at my rights really about? "Cop-killer bullets" is an unofficial terminology placed upon certain brands and types of bullets by uninformed people. These are generally bullets of the hollowpoint variety, as favored by some law enforcement officials, and countless citizens in the weapons they lawfully possess for self-protection everday. These bullets are favored due to expansion, which limits collateral damage to property and others. These bullets cannot penetrate armor; in fact, so-called "cop-killer bullets" generally dissipate their energy against the armor, just as a regular bullet would. This is nothing but scarce feel-good legislation to make the uneducated and the uninformed sleep better at night. In reality, it's nothing but made-up terms and conjecture. Any type of bullet can be a killer.. it just depends on who wields the gun firing it, and what their intentions are. In closing, I ask that you take the time and effort to personally investigate these various claims that the Obama administration will no doubt soon be bringing to the table. If the past months of extraordinary ammunition and firearm purchases haven't been convincing enough to show you, the elected leaders of this country, that the citizenry both embraces AND supports it's 2nd Amendment rights, even in the face of such an anti-gun administration winning office, then you are no representative of the people you were indeed elected to represent, and we will remember and vote accordingly. The 2nd Amendment is VERY clear, and the government would be wise to see that it's people's rights be respected and upheld, not restricted and eventually outright denied."

Signed. A vocal voter.

2/26/2009 12:44:41 PM

I was with you until this:

Quote :

""Cop-killer bullets" is an unofficial terminology placed upon certain brands and types of bullets by uninformed people."

Cop killer bullets are rounds (made of steel or harder material such as tungsten) that sharpened to a point (to pierce a rated vest) and might have a coating (such as teflon) as to not damage the barrel.

These bullets are $5+ round and tightly controlled. The FBI used them and killed their own during the Waco - Branch Davidian escapade.

Regardless, the terminology is stupid as an ice pick can pierce a vest rated for a .44 magnum, but those haven't been outlawed. I wonder why that is?

When this whole hullabaloo with 'cop killer' bullets came about, politicians and other idiots started touting the vests that 'all' police wore. Well all officers didn't wear vests, but the criminals didn't know that. What did they do? They started aiming for the head.

Knee jerk reactions, corrupt politicians and an uninformed populace lead to very bad things.

2/26/2009 3:41:31 PM

well, to be fair, I would think that the 5.7 would be considered a "cop killer"...but its all fair game to me. that term is more or less worthless

2/26/2009 8:32:24 PM

Quote :

"Read: Unintended Consequences by John Ross."

I'd love to read it. Can't seem to find it anywhere for less than $50+ plus. (I would love for someone on here to point me to where I can buy it at list price)

2/26/2009 8:45:27 PM

^ all you have to do is enter 'john ross unintended consequences' into google and you get a bajillion places to buy it from.

http://john-ross.net/store.php

Quote :

"well, to be fair, I would think that the 5.7 would be considered a "cop killer"...but its all fair game to me. that term is more or less worthless"

Well if we're being honest here, any rifle round .223 Rem, .308, etc... will all slice through any rated vest with ease, even ones with trauma plates (depending on thickness and composition).

There are SBR (short barreled rifles) out there that use these calibers.

Why haven't rifle rounds been outlawed?

Lots of stupidity when it comes to gun laws and laws in general.

We need a cleanup of government. Term limits would be nice. Sorry, off topic.

[Edited on February 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM. Reason : h]

2/26/2009 10:06:59 PM

'Cop killer' bullets are as vacuous as 'assault rifles.' Media took hold of the teflon coating, the scary looking expansion properties, and the ability to defeat Level II and IIA vests, and blew it up into a shitstorm.

I have quite a few things that can defeat II and IIA vests, it's not that hard. What the media conveniently left out was that most agencies across the nation specify Level III vests as a minimum, which is much harder for most pistol rounds to defeat.

Rounds designed to penetrate armor are called, not surprisingly, penetrator rounds, and they're usually steel core, in rarer and more expensive cases, tungsten. They're not that tightly controlled, one just needs to know the designation to order them, and they sure as hell are not $5 a round.

That icepick can defeat just about any vest, sans trauma or SAPI plates. So can most knives. Bullets, even small, high velocity ones, do not concentrate their energy in a cutting edge, or point, as knives do. Penetrator rounds function just like an icepick, shedding their jacket as the penetrator core punches through the vest. Problem is, the ballistics after getting through that vest, aren't all that hot. You can live being icepicked a few times, and the penetrator rounds work in much the same way. Since most of the velocity has been shed getting through the vest, the round just punches a small hole. Hence the reason 5.7s are just this side of pointless. If you are going to use a penetrator, use enough bullet to get the job done. Which brings this argument back to the absolute idiocy of the media and political scare of pistol caliber anti armor rounds. Unless you're rocking a Tokarev or a CZ52, Level III armor is going to shrug off just about everything you throw at it from a handgun.

2/26/2009 10:08:48 PM

^^I'll be damned. Thanks.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1888118040/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235705891&sr=1-1

2/26/2009 10:39:11 PM

Yeah. Less than $30 direct from the publisher. http://www.accuratepress.net/ross.html

2/26/2009 11:02:29 PM

My CZ 52 is my impulse buy for the month, with surplus ammo for $10 per 72 rounds at ammo man, and at most local places I shop.

2/27/2009 6:00:46 PM

I've never been a handgun person, I've always used shotguns and rifles. But I've been thinking about getting a handgun recently. What I don't understand is why everyone says that a .22 has no stopping power, especially if you use hollow points. Anyone care to explain?

2/28/2009 12:56:23 PM

people say it has no stopping power, well, because it has no stopping power.

even some of the larger handgun calibers have questionable stopping power, which is why shot placement is critical.

2/28/2009 1:12:14 PM

Quote :

"people say it has no stopping power, well, because it has no stopping power."

exactly. you want to drop the person, not piss them off.

2/28/2009 3:09:32 PM

see box of truth. Its all in both PENETRATION, as well as destruction caused. A super duper be all end all round that 'explodes' when it enters the body, but that only penetrates 3 inches, is great if you place it juuust right. However a hard cast round nose 45 ACP will penetrate for DAYS, and with the right shot placement will stop 1st time, every time. I use a 22 for a target gun. Smalles center fire I will use as a planned SD gun is a 32. a 22 LR or a 22 mag maybe, not a 22 short. and all of those are not all that effective, unless you place your shots just right.

The 22 I was shooting at PDHSC today I believe would be a 100% man stopper. But then I ran 1500 rounds through it with 2 FTF, both form an old box of ammo. That and I ran rapid fire 10 shot strings at 10 yards that were 2-3 inches across.

2/28/2009 3:10:45 PM

PMC 9mm 115 grain FMJ. $179.80/1000 round case plus tax.

Also has 1000 round cases of M-193 .223 ammo at $369.99/case plus tax.

Contact Bill Dudley at the Gun Rack 806-F highway 66 South in Kernersville, NC @ 336-996-8444.

Someone else posted this, I was on my way through and stopped by.

Good deal, I think.

[Edited on February 28, 2009 at 10:38 PM. Reason : d]

2/28/2009 10:32:35 PM

good find. I shot my Cz 52 this am, I think I may have to go ahead and spring for a membership at pdhsc, this 4 hours per Saturday is getting to be a habit.

2/28/2009 10:51:16 PM

Appreciate the responses

Anyway, I'm in the market for a very affordable handgun, where should I be looking, etc.?

3/1/2009 3:17:57 AM

toysrus. about $20 look for nerf.

3/1/2009 4:14:43 AM

hi point ftl

3/1/2009 4:59:37 AM

PDHSC has 500 rd boxes of 9m Brown Bear for $120

Heard this ammo is a little dirty, but worth it for the price...

Latest E-mail from my overly-worried, uninformed father.

Quote :

"the gun thing has me worried. I know you are responsible and have a level head but a lot can happen when it comes to firearms. Ok if you want it in your truck & room, but I know of no one without a uniform that carries a hand gun all the time. You can’t use it in malls, campus, football or basketball games, restaurants, etc. I can not picture where you would go that you would need a firearm. If the other guy does not have a firearm you can’t shoot an unarmed person and you could mistakenly think they had a firearm. Carrying a firearm is tremendous responsibility that really needs to be thought out. Look at how many times a year our trained police make mistakes with the use of firearms. You are going to get a concealed weapon permit but you really need to consider having the pistol concealed in extreme situations and not a standard practice. Can you get a trigger lock? Do not put hollow point bullets in the magazine! "

[Edited on March 1, 2009 at 11:53 AM. Reason : .]

3/1/2009 11:27:23 AM

Sure that wasn't from your mother?


Good to know the apple has fallen far from that particular tree. I love the admonition against hollow points. Email him back for a technical discussion about FMJ, Federal's new Expanding FMJ, Cor Bon Pow-R-Ball, and traditional hollow point information.

3/1/2009 12:54:57 PM

at least he called it a magazine , he can't be that uninformed

3/1/2009 12:55:16 PM

craptastic, assuming you have already gotten a permit, save yourself up till you have $300, then go get a CZ52 and 750-1200 rounds of ammo, and a cleaning kit for it.

3/1/2009 1:19:13 PM

^I think I'm going to stick with my xd40 for now (applying for CCP on Tuesday)
^^I hammered that into his head
^^^my mother wouldn't even know where to start, other than, "It's dangerous!" And there is no discussion with either of my parents. They are pro-gun, but anti-"my son carrying a gun everywhere he can and using effective rounds."

3/1/2009 1:33:38 PM

Quote :

"PDHSC has 500 rd boxes of 9m Brown Bear for $120"

if you can get a 1000 rds (20 boxes) of blazer at walmart (just go before 10-10:30am, it's ~$190 after tax.

also if you want 10 boxes (500 rds) its ~$95.

PDHSC while close and they have it in stock, is just as expensive as purchasing online.

3/1/2009 8:30:43 PM

IF you have spare cash, and can make it to walmart between 7 am and 10 pm, the hours they are 'allowed' to sell ammo, and you see Blazer Brass 9mm/40SW, or any of the 500/550 round packs of 22 LR ammo, buy it, and if you need the money back in hand, sell it here. I need to restock on 22LR, as the past 2 weeks have seen me go through 8 boxes.

3/1/2009 10:34:07 PM

Quote :

"Do not put hollow point bullets in the magazine!"

sorry about your scurred folks, hell I got a box of 9mm hollow points as a Christmas present

3/1/2009 11:00:49 PM

My parents don't even blink anymore when my sweater pulls up and there's a pistol under it. They ask if I've bought anything new.

3/2/2009 2:22:54 AM

^^^^^Seems like your parents want you to avoid litigation. Guess survivability is out the door.

3/2/2009 3:20:02 PM

Quote :

"the hours they are 'allowed' to sell ammo"

i hate that. i've had them sell me a box afterhours though! the person said that's what they are told to say, but the system will process transactions at any time.

3/2/2009 5:49:34 PM

ok- so it is legal to carry in a national park (if you have a CCP), but what about state parks?

3/3/2009 1:34:35 PM

not allowed

3/3/2009 3:47:06 PM

You can't carry in state parks. Also, only some national parks allow concealed carry. To carry in a national park the which the park is in must allow concealed carry and you have to have a permit, or permit from a state that shares reciprocity.

3/3/2009 4:00:03 PM

^The state of which the park is within must allow concealed carry.

3/3/2009 4:01:12 PM

I'm trying to put together all the NC & federal firearm laws. So far I have:

Chapter 14: Criminal Law:
Article 52A - Sale of Weapons in Certain Counties.
Article 53 - Sale of Weapons in Certain Other Counties.
Article 53A - Other Firearms.
Article 53B - Firearm Regulation.
Article 53C - Sport Shooting Range Protection Act of 1997.
Article 54A - The Felony Firearms Act.
Article 54B - Concealed Handgun Permit.

what else is there? where are the common & statutory laws regarding self-defense/use of force?

3/3/2009 6:26:12 PM

^^Thanks, I cant talk good

3/3/2009 8:10:15 PM

^^the 2nd amendment?

[Edited on March 3, 2009 at 8:39 PM. Reason : Not really a law, but I had to]

3/3/2009 8:38:42 PM

Some would call the constitution and its amendments the supreme law of the land....

3/3/2009 9:10:38 PM

that's well and good, but that says nothing about what NC allows us to do with firearms.

3/4/2009 6:20:35 AM

Yup, the 2nd Amendment isn't actually applicable to the States, yet.

3/4/2009 8:04:30 AM