way to dodge the question. my "hypothetical" is nowhere near as outlandish as yours. you think he should be able to use a women's locker room at the gym. so why shouldn't a transgender man (or is it woman?) be able to play in a women's sports league?

i swear tim kasher, you really give "liberals" a bad name sometimes (and really come across as an arrogant dick)

[Edited on June 3, 2015 at 5:41 PM. Reason : ]

6/3/2015 5:41:19 PM

Quote :

"Just sounds like a lot of talking out of both sides of your mouth to me"

how do you figure?

^ what does your ridiculous hypothetical have to do with anything that's been discussed in this thread? literally the only points I've made that it wouldn't hurt to try and be kind and respectful to someone by not calling what they're going through a disorder when it's not a disorder.

none of which has anything to do with your fixation with bathrooms and locker rooms. if you stretch out the logic you're using, you're tacitly implying that a transperson is some sort of sex offender who goes preying on people in bathrooms.

[Edited on June 3, 2015 at 5:47 PM. Reason : cool Kasher reference. never heard that one before.]

6/3/2015 5:41:40 PM

Saying there is nothing wrong with them but then they need counseling and pretty extreme surgery to be "correct". Saying there is nothing wrong mentally yet acknowledging their brain and bodies are not in sync.

I don't see anything wrong with saying there is something wrong mentally, it isn't saying they have a disorder or whatever term you want to give it, it is just simply acknowledging that something in their brain is causing them to feel this way. Not saying it is something that needs to be corrected or they should be treated any differently than any other person or anything remotely close to that, let them live however they like.

6/3/2015 5:56:19 PM

"wrong" usually implies that someone is doing something that they aren't supposed to do. some people ITT are using "wrong" in that context.

in the context of someone thinking that their sex and gender don't match up, therefore something is wrong in their eyes, doesn't mean that they're doing something they aren't supposed to do

that's it

as long as we both agree that it isn't a disorder, which some are still saying, we're cool

6/3/2015 6:02:05 PM

Identifying as something is more than a simple declaration of "I identify as ____"

Stop being obtuse on purpose

6/3/2015 6:11:34 PM

he also equated going to the bathroom and playing in a professional sports league

6/3/2015 6:19:32 PM

hey man, I'm really just curious how you would answer the question. so you can stop being a douche and just answer the question? forget the Lebron/WNBA part. if Bruce decided to do this 40 years ago, do you think that he should have been able to compete in women's track and field?

6/3/2015 6:36:51 PM

no, sex and gender are different

6/3/2015 6:39:26 PM

^^ seeing as how she was Bruce in 1976, we know the answer to that question

[Edited on June 3, 2015 at 6:49 PM. Reason : funny that you think I'm the one who's being a douche ]

6/3/2015 6:48:24 PM

Quote :

" if Bruce decided to do this 40 years ago"

6/3/2015 6:56:31 PM

but he didn't, so there is no point in asking the question

[Edited on June 3, 2015 at 6:58 PM. Reason : if your mom had wheels would she be a bike?]

6/3/2015 6:57:34 PM

that's one of the dumbest replies ive read in this thread

6/3/2015 6:58:14 PM

that's up to the governing body of the sport to decide, not me

I haven't advocated for either side of the position

6/3/2015 7:00:02 PM

no, your response is exceptionally dumb

6/3/2015 7:01:08 PM

glad you think that

6/3/2015 7:02:21 PM

https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/petition-urges-the-international-olympic-committee-to-revoke-caitlyn-jenner-s-olympic-medals-141231280.html

Quote :

"Petition Urges International Olympic Committee to Revoke Caitlyn Jenner's Olympic Title"

6/3/2015 7:14:35 PM

Quote :

"literally the only points I've made that it wouldn't hurt to try and be kind and respectful to someone by not calling what they're going through a disorder when it's not a disorder."

If not a disorder, what word would you use? "Experts" say it is and isn't a mental disorder. "What they're going through" seems to imply its a pretty bad ordeal regardless.

I'm not saying it is morally wrong to be born transgender, but nobody WANTS to be born one sex that identifies as the different gender, the same way nobody WANTS to be born with any disorder.

As I already stated, the definition of TRANSGENDER is a disorder. That isn't being disrespectful, it is stating fact.

6/3/2015 7:20:22 PM

^^That is just ridiculous. The things that Bruce accomplished, when he accomplished it, was amazing. He helped lift this country up when it really needed it. Revoking that would be a travesty just because of what has happened of late.

But I do think it's a little sad that Bruce Jenner's legacy will be this and the Kardashians, rather than his accomplishments in the '76 Olympics.

6/3/2015 10:03:46 PM

The Kardashians shit is a terrible legacy.

Coming out though encourages others who may be transgendered to come out of the shadows and maybe experience some happiness in their lives. A few less people killed themselves. That's not sad.

Although I guess the Kardashians gave her a bigger audience so maybe it wasn't all terrible

[Edited on June 3, 2015 at 10:18 PM. Reason : .]

6/3/2015 10:09:40 PM

Kris Jenner knows how to pick em

6/3/2015 11:20:21 PM

Quote :

"But I do think it's a little sad that Bruce Jenner's legacy will be this and the Kardashians, rather than his accomplishments in the '76 Olympics."

come on, man

6/3/2015 11:33:15 PM

I hope the national attention of his decision doesn't cause non-transgender gay children or teenagers who are confused by their sexual feelings to decide to go under the knife because Mr. Kardashian did it. Peer pressure and hollywood image and whatnot.

6/3/2015 11:38:35 PM

c'mon man

6/3/2015 11:41:01 PM

Quote :

"Who is fucking abusing them?? Tell me? I've not, nor do I know anyone that has ever lifted a finger against this crowd, physically, mentally, or otherwise. "

LOL, are you kidding? You are sitting here wondering who abuses trans people, AS YOU ARE PUSHING THE MESSAGE THEY ARE FREAKS. If I assume you're approximately 30, then you MUST know that when you were growing up, if someone even whiffed about being gay/trans, they would have been tormented mercilessly, it would have been an "issue" in most places in NC. You have most likely contributed, and continue to contribute, to this atmosphere of hostility, and you provide safe harbor to people who would harass someone different from them, even though you yourself would not.

Jenner coming out undermines people like you, by publicly demonstrating that no matter how many people would sneer at them, there are more than enough other people that would treat them well that it doesn't matter.

You must literally ignore the experiences of most trans people if you think they are able to just live their lives without harassment... that's the whole reason anyone cares about Jenner. If society just thought trans people were normal people, no one would care that Jenner came out (or whatever it's called).

I completely understand the feeling that it's a disorder or weird or whatever, but that's not what the point is here really.

6/4/2015 12:24:23 AM

Quote :

"and you provide safe harbor to people who would harass someone different from them, even though you yourself would not."

You're right. I actually operate a B&B for gay and trans haters. Over breakfast we sit around the table and lament what this world is coming to with all the gays and trannies out there.

And outside of this stupid forum? I don't really talk about it to anyone, except the one transgender person I know, so therefore I don't "contribute and continue to contribute, to this atmosphere of hostility." I don't go to church, so you can't put that stereotype on me - I don't talk about it there. I'm not political at all on FB, and I don't comment on golo. I don't do twitter. Those are pretty much the only outlets I would have to contribute to this hostility that you think I have toward transgender people. The only hostility I hold is for myself, for those out there that call themselves activists. But to be honest, I don't really like any kind of activist. I know some people who I would call Christian activists, and they really grind my gears as well.

Look, you, tgl, oopspowsprs...you all see things in black and white, and if someone doesn't see things your way, then it's wrong, because there's no gray area.

I think I've made my stance here pretty clear, and my stance doesn't abuse, belittle, make fun of, or put down anyone. I think what these people have is a disease, call it a disorder if you like, and rather than enabled, they should be treated. Maybe you think that's very 20th century of me, but that's my opinion. I would offer my home to someone for a while if I thought it would help them. And part of my stance is that the f'ing activists get on my nerves.

6/4/2015 7:23:05 AM

if you have the right to cut your dingdong off to pretend to be a woman, i have the right to think you're weird for doing so

6/4/2015 8:28:18 AM

He cut his dick off, he's no longer pretending.

6/4/2015 9:15:59 AM

Wait, the gender reassignment surgery has already taken place? I thought he was just taking hormones and playing dress up so far.

6/4/2015 9:17:34 AM

Maybe I'm wrong, but you can't say I'm Caitlyn if you still have a penis. Since it now identifies as a woman, I assume the penis is gone.

And the hormones have most likely rendered it useless anyway.

6/4/2015 9:19:50 AM

^^^^^ yes I think people with opinions that conflict with mine are wrong. You're not any different than me.

However I don't really care what mental box you (not just you but others) categorize these people in -- disease, disorder, man, woman, it, whatever. It's more about how these semantics when vocalized contribute to a society that rejects people with these issues, whether you realize it or not. I think you do realize it, which is why you've admittedly kept it here only. So since no one reads this shithole, good I guess?

Please don't construe this into how you aren't "allowed" or don't have the right to your opinion because that's not at all what I am saying. Everyone is allowed to think whatever they want.

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 9:23 AM. Reason : .]

6/4/2015 9:22:58 AM

I kinda love moron right now.

Also, I'm going to answer Bullet's ridiculous hypothetical question...

Quote :

"so why shouldn't a transgender man (or is it woman?) be able to play in a women's sports league?"

The answer is because WOMEN can't even compete with women. If we are going to divide everyone up into two distinct groups... then this shit is going to keep happening.

http://tinyurl.com/c4m3kfl

http://tinyurl.com/k2bfusw

http://tinyurl.com/olbt7v3

6/4/2015 9:23:55 AM

Quote :

"if you have the right to cut your dingdong off to pretend to be a woman, i have the right to think you're weird for doing so"

6/4/2015 9:24:20 AM

I dunno.... i think Chelsea Manning still has cock-n-balls

6/4/2015 9:25:21 AM

wait...so our science is so good that we can turn men into women?

praise science!

6/4/2015 9:51:28 AM

I'll call Caitlyn a woman when she has her first period.

6/4/2015 10:14:53 AM

She's 65, she wouldn't have one anyway

6/4/2015 10:21:44 AM

by some of your arguments, a biological female who did not make use of her unique female biology for reproduction wouldn't be admitted into 'womanhood' either




Can't believe there's been more than 3 pages of this shit and thai ladyboys and other cultures that inherently accept non-binary gender haven't been brought up yet, you know, where the 'affected' individuals aren't killing themselves due to social ostracism, and are happily living their lives as they see themselves. Maybe it is our society that is abnormal or disordered by assuming everyone has to conform to stereotypes dictated by their genitalia.

6/4/2015 10:44:07 AM

By our arguments a human, born as a man will never be a woman. How hard is that to understand. It's no different than Sammy Sosa bleaching himself to be white. No matter how white his skin gets, is he ever really a Caucasian? NO

But the funny thing is no one gave Sammy an award for becoming white....

Also living in the "closet" for 65 years is not heroic. Its pathetic.

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 10:53 AM. Reason : ,]

6/4/2015 10:52:30 AM

Quote :

"By our arguments a human, born as a man will never be a woman."

Because genetics.

6/4/2015 11:02:08 AM

6/4/2015 11:06:37 AM

it's a maaaaaan's world... I don't know where your authority comes from to say who can and can't be a woman, but the courts disagree with you.



It may technologically feasible in the future to transplant sex organs or create them in the lab or through genetic manipulation. two sperms can already be fused to make babby. So, the main pillar of your argument may crumble. But y'all just stay over there on the wrong side of history in the bigots' corner.

6/4/2015 11:09:37 AM

GREEN JAY, they are just scared that when we get our large penises attached that we will talk all their womenfolk from them.

6/4/2015 11:24:04 AM

Quote :

"thai ladyboys"

only they aren't recognized as women post-op...


they are still considered men and have to use the men's restroom and go to all male prisons and stuff

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 11:43 AM. Reason : asdf]

6/4/2015 11:42:43 AM

hey, look who read wikipedia real quick!

6/4/2015 11:44:08 AM

The Pride parade is coming up soon here in DC. I plan on going, and would encourage you all to come with me.

6/4/2015 11:45:57 AM

^^actually I saw it in a documentary!

6/4/2015 11:47:54 AM

Quote :

"You're right. I actually operate a B&B for gay and trans haters. Over breakfast we sit around the table and lament what this world is coming to with all the gays and trannies out there. "

A little ironic you're accusing me of only seeing things in black and white, yet to point out that you can passively support discrimination while not necessarily being discriminatory yourself is the same as saying you must active plot to harm gays. You need to look up the definition of "safe harbor", its a specific term with a specific meaning. There's a spectrum between being the person to beat up matt shepherd, and being the person to say "it's wrong to beat on gays, BUT... they shouldn't prance around rubbing their gayness in my face".

6/4/2015 12:42:33 PM

wasn't matt shepherd beat up over some drug deal or drug related argument?

6/4/2015 12:50:05 PM

It's bigoted to say anything against Caitlyn. Gotcha

6/4/2015 12:52:48 PM

it is bigoted to insist that gender and sex are equivalent and that people who wanna add and remove body parts or change skin tone or other aspects of their appearance/physicality are mentally ill and in need of treatment to become 'neurotypical'. IDGAF about this particular individual, but it is my conviction that everyone should have the choice to look how they want, fuck and marry who they want (or choose to abstain from these 'normal' activities) in whatever way as long as everyone is sure that's what they want.

6/4/2015 1:01:00 PM