^^^^ & ^^ Holset WH1C, if things work out in my favor I can hook a nga up

mista jangles, got any other cummins goodies laying around?

[Edited on January 9, 2009 at 10:38 AM. Reason : --]

1/9/2009 10:37:33 AM

I looked into the Holset turbos for my car, so allow me to provide another 50 page post. Here are some potential issues with the HY or HX turbos for 1.6 liter , 250-300rwhp application:

1. They're both T3 inlet, which is on the larger end of the spectrum for a D16. You'll need a T3 manifold, which isn't a big deal really. I would stay away from the HX35 (the HX35W commonly found on the manual rams) if you really only want 250-300rwhp. It has a divided 12 cm^2 exhaust housing and an internal wastegate pressure of 14psi. If you get a divided hotside running to an undivided manifold you have hot exhaust gases hitting that divider... that is less-than-ideal IMO. Of course you may be able to grind out the divider or swap hotsides or something.

If you want to run less than the 14psi spring pressure you would need a new wastegate actuator and hope the wastegate flows enough to keep boost lower than it was designed for. Or you'd have to weld the flapper shut and go with an external wastegate. Or you could go with an H1C (stock turbo on Jeepman's Ram which needs an external wastegate. For comparison, The 16G and 20G hybrids used on DSM's (2 liter) have something like a 7 cm^2 exhaust housing with a TD05 inlet.

2. all the HY35's I've seen have a 9 cm^2 undivided T3 inlet with free-float type hotsides (require external wastegate). They're also harder to find than the HX turbos. That means you will need a manifold for an external wastegate (REAL Tial 38mm 2 bolt style would be best, about $200ish new). You would also have to find a manifold that has clearance for the A/C condenser if you still want to keep that.

1/9/2009 10:44:35 AM

no, I had bought this to use on a Turbo buildup I was going to do but scrapped it and this is all I have left

1/9/2009 10:44:55 AM

^^my wh1c has an internally gated turbine housing, btw. there a few housings available for them.


MHO is that a stock diesel application might not be the best choice

[Edited on January 9, 2009 at 11:50 AM. Reason : arghx knows turbos]

1/9/2009 11:50:06 AM

you've gotta look at the spring pressure... i'm not sure if you can adjust the tension in the actuator or not. if not you might be able to use an adjustable garrett actuator. but that doesn't change the fact that the H1C/HX35 is probably overkill for his power goals.

Here is a possible option I thought about for another friend: OEM CRX HF manifold (it should fit shouldn't it?) :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__88-91-honda-crx-hf-manifold-turbo-89-90-d-series-1-6-si_W0QQitemZ110333619292QQadiZ2865QQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item110333619292&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A727|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318




adapter flanges (these are made in the US I think, I've considered buying from these guys):

HF manifold to TD05 (for 14B or Evo III Big 16G):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/14b-DSM-to-Honda-CRX-HF-Manifold-Turbo-Adapter-flange_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem120360564798QQitemZ120360564798QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories



HF manifold to T25/GT25/T28/GT28 (stock SR turbos maybe?)




http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Garrett-T25-to-CRX-HF-Manifold-Turbo-Adapter-flange_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem120360598794QQitemZ120360598794QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

1/9/2009 1:29:02 PM

I'm going to use the manifold on my engine now for the turbo. Its a CX manifold same as a HF.

So that means i need a turbo with an internal wastegate and an adapter like you linked.

[Edited on January 9, 2009 at 2:47 PM. Reason : .]

1/9/2009 2:47:44 PM

go with the big 16G

1/9/2009 5:04:42 PM

getting back to the topic of my buildup here...



I decided to check my side seal to corner seal clearance on the old side seals that were in the engine. The factory spec is .002" - .0059" , which IMO, is almost like giving a torque spec of 100-300 lb/ft of torque. I was hoping I would have between .002" - .003" , but it was more like between .004" - .005" using my feeler gauges. Since I want really good compression for this motor I am going to have to get new side seals and cut them to length using this procedure:

http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.com/videos/Clearancing_Side_Seals

I guess I'll order them on Monday. I expect this process to take a whole day at least.

1/10/2009 7:10:55 PM

Must be nice to have a website with that much documentation in video form >.<.

You ever get that welder?

1/11/2009 12:33:02 AM

probably within the next week or so. i am going to National Welders to compare their prices with online stuff and Northern Tool

1/11/2009 2:49:41 AM

I cant be of much help but I have a decent set of micrometers 1 2 and 4 inch wide if you need to borrow them for blue printing your clearances.

1/11/2009 10:14:41 AM

already have a set, thanks

1/11/2009 4:08:29 PM

More setbacks. After switching to some different brands of seals and such, I began assembling the motor yesterday--until I got to the rear plate of the engine, which had a chip in a coolant passage. The car would probably have symptoms of a blown headgasket pretty quickly. The complicating factor here is that a good friend of mine traded me that part for some stuff I had, and i only now caught the problem. So I have to work something out with him.

And then I will probably have to go to the dealer for a new one. Those rear plates are really rare. It will probably cost me close to $400 for another one, which means no welder for a while. And then I will have to re-port it and hope I don't screw it up.

2/8/2009 11:10:23 AM

that SUCKS.

I just had a piston face plant into concrete from about 3.5' . It's got two nice nicks from where it bounced off the engine stand. My loss isn't near as much $$$ but it still sucks.

2/8/2009 11:28:07 AM

Quote :

"And then I will probably have to go to the dealer for a new one. Those rear plates are really rare. It will probably cost me close to $400 for another one, which means no welder for a while. And then I will have to re-port it and hope I don't screw it up."

Ray...what's the plate made out of? Why not find a really good TIG welder or the like and have it repaired if it's aluminum or steel?

And as for cast iron, I've known folks who have welded it with nickel filler with decent results, and have even seen some pretty damn good work with brazing for filler. The oldtimers swear by it. You need to call around and see who can/will touch this kind of thing.

Who's that guy down around Hwy 42 and I 40 who messes with them? Call Rex at Happy. Call Carl Cason. Call everybody you can think of. Fuck dumping 400 dolla if you can pull it off without it.

2/8/2009 8:51:51 PM

The chip is on the inside wall for the inner coolant o-ring groove. I am going to see if I can get a second opinion on its usability. I am reluctant to attempt any repair on a combustion surface. Would you repair a nick in a cylinder wall with a welder?



[Edited on February 8, 2009 at 10:10 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2009 9:48:15 PM

You just asked the wrong person that kinda question. Of course I would.

Experts weld shit like that all the time. Depends on how true it has to remain. Combustion chambers on a conventional cast iron head...no problem. Grind around the fuckup (and ball mill the ends of cracks to prevent stress risers), preheat in an oven, pull out, weld with high-nickel content filler rod, let cool slowly, or stick back in the oven and ramp down temps slowly. Finish machine.

It is, of course, highly advisable to jig up a part like that on a holding fixture to prevent warpage, and then do very light finish machining when cool to ensure everything is true.

Aluminum is not as difficult. But it still requires a deft touch, and possibly a post-weld stress relief in the oven and minor truing.

You're talking to the guy who has basically taken parts from three Honda/Acura D16A1 engines to make one good one. Head from engine #1, SURFACED ON A FUCKING BELT SANDER NO LESS, block from engine #3, Pistons and rods from cyls 1-3 from Engine #3, one piston and rod from engine #2 (which made a grand show of ventilating the block front and back, shattering the mains girdle, and fucking up the oil pan - cyl #2), crankshaft from engine #2, oil pump from engine #3, and various other parts from each as needed.

And I ran the dogshit out of that engine until I wrecked the car. No balancing, no nothing. A quickie hone job, plastigage the bearings, spec out the oil pump and lap the rear oil pump cover, and lap the valves. Fuck all the rest.

2/8/2009 11:18:15 PM

outside of the belt sander head "mill" that d16 build is pretty common. that belt sander bit is pretty impressive!

hell mine is about on par. i'm not sure rotarys are as lego as d-series H motors.



[Edited on February 9, 2009 at 8:38 AM. Reason : mine goes block from 1, crank from 2, oil pump/front seal from 3, clutch from 3, head from 4]

2/9/2009 8:32:05 AM

I showed the pic to some builders online and they seem to think that given its location it shouldn't be an issue as it is. Hopefully that's correct because I think I'm going to use it.

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 12:38 AM. Reason : it is far removed from the coolant passages and probably not big enough to affect compression]

2/10/2009 12:37:30 AM

I got the tension bolts, flywheel, and clutch installed. So it's starting to look like a motor now. I'm waiting on a new crank pulley right now as the timing marks on my old one are suspect.

2/21/2009 9:56:39 PM

useless without pics

2/21/2009 10:25:08 PM

still no pics, but the shortblock is fully assembled after i got held up by a damaged (but luckily inexpensive) thrust bearing on the front of the crank. oil pan is on, clutch and flywheel, crank angle sensor. maybe next weekend I will have the manifolds and accessories on.

3/16/2009 1:21:32 AM

This thread is worthless without pics.

3/18/2009 8:33:18 AM

another crap cellphone pic. i am getting a new camera soon.

I am working on mounting the turbo right now. It's a pain because the clearances are tight for the turbo-to-manifold flange and I want it to be serviceable with the motor in the vehicle. I have to fabricate a new oil return line. the new long runner manifold sets the turbo at least two inches higher than the old shorty HKS log.

3/24/2009 1:49:18 PM

better pics:







i've got a stripped out bolt hole for the secondary fuel rail that I have to fix. then I just have to get the injectors and rails installed, plug in a few electrical connectors, hook up some vacuum lines. then I will pressure test for boost leaks with the motor out of the car. after all that checks out I should be able to put it back in.

The plan now is to get zxappeal to do the welding of the downpipe and I will have to put off getting my own welder. Money and time have gotten tight. I have purchased a bunch of mandrel bends for the downpipe and wastegate recirculation.

4/6/2009 12:28:07 PM

Raymond...oil cooler? Or are you going to use a remote mount?

4/6/2009 12:41:06 PM

looks pretty sweet, whats the deal with all the block off plates

4/6/2009 12:46:12 PM

The factory oil cooler on this car is utterly massive (unlike the oil coolers on the FD and Rx-8). I have seen Civics with smaller front mounts. It's all-aluminum and If I could guess it's 18"x6"x3" or so. I might measure when I get a chance.

Believe it or not, these 89 spec manifolds have LESS blockoff plates than my old ones did! On the back of my 88 factory upper intake manifold was a blockoff plate for EGR (not in 89 models) and a blockoff plate for a solenoid valve that was used to raise the idle to 3000rpm(!) on startup to warm up the cat. Even worse, Mazda had to install an oil bypass thermostat in the front of the crank that significantly decreases oil flow on cold start in order to improve cold start emissions. That has been removed too.

The blockoff plates in this picture are:

big one on the upper right: Air Control Valve, which is a bunch of solenoid valves to direct smog pump air to either the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, or to the catalytic converter

leftmost blockoff plate: that originally had a pipe hooked to it that connected to the catalytic converter

bottom blockoff plate: coolant supply for the factory, water cooled turbo

4/6/2009 1:48:17 PM

word, when this thing gonna be rollin again?

4/6/2009 3:21:37 PM

when did they put oil coolers on civics?

maybe I should look into that....

4/6/2009 6:54:27 PM

I'd love to drive this thing one day... I've never driven anything with forced induction, that wasn't diesel anyways.

4/6/2009 8:47:45 PM

^^ they didn't put oil coolers in civics to my knowledge. What I meant was that my stock oil cooler is bigger than some aftermarket FMIC's I see on budget Civic turbo builds.

More pics:


accessories installed


the vacuum routing clusterfuck. This is AFTER emissions reduction! Normally there is a solenoid rack in the middle there. A stock FD has 6 [sic] times as many hoses as what you see here. Every single vacuum line has been secured with either Krazy Glue (smaller lines), hose clamps, or AN fittings. Every hose now is heat resistant, either neoprene (fuel hose), silicone (the good Hose Techniques stuff), or stainless AN hose.




longblock assembled mostly, just have to pressure test for air leaks and do a few other little things



a basic mockup of the new downpipe. You can't see it, but the straight 3" section will connect right to the catback and incorporate an O2 bung for the wideband sensor. The 1 3/4" mandrel bent J pipe will be cut into whatever sections I may need. It will have a V-band flange to connect to the wastegate, and then I want it to merge with the exhaust stream right at that second 45 degree bend, in as smooth of a transition as possible. That should minimize any horsepower loss from recirculation, as well as maximizing wastegate flow so that I can crack the wastegate open as late as possible.

[Edited on April 7, 2009 at 12:25 AM. Reason : fixed pic]

4/7/2009 12:23:19 AM

good job on the exhaust

4/7/2009 10:38:10 AM

good progress..

those vac lines arent that bad.. i've never heard of anyone using crazy glue before, i usually use a small zip tie.

4/7/2009 1:33:30 PM

i've got a friend who ran 25psi on a 3000GT and he swore by Krazy Glue. it seems to bond to the silicone really well. I left a bit of slack in certain vacuum lines, so if I need to cut part of those hoses to take the manifold off again, I won't have to replace the whole hose.

I've had bad luck with zipties. they don't seem to prevent leaks that much based on my pressure tests. the best thing is to have really tight fitting hoses. Most of the japanese cars I've worked on are best with 5/32" (3.5mm) hose, which fits very tightly.

4/7/2009 1:59:52 PM

yeah i usually use 3.5mm (or 4mm) silicone with a zip tie. i could see crazy glue if you are pushing really high boost, but 25psi isnt that much and i've seen plenty of setups at that level using zip ties for small vac lines with no issues. as long as the line is snug enough to not leak, the zip tie really just keeps it from popping off. i wouldnt use a zip tie to try to make up for using the wrong size vac line, tho.

4/7/2009 2:09:20 PM

Cyanoacrylate is good shit. I think it's a great idea for vacuum hoses.

It works really well with neoprene or butyl rubber; it will actually fuse the two together, much like a cement would, and often better.

When I sold auto parts, we even had a universal o-ring kit with spools of o-ring stock, a guillotine cutter, and cyanoacrylate adhesive to join the ends. I've used plain old Krazy Glue off the shelf many times to resize an o-ring that I had lying around.

^As far as using zip ties goes...it only works well for hoses going on nipples or barb fittings, where positive pressure actually pulls the zip-tied section of the hose firmly against the barb or nipple bulge, creating a positive seal and good pull-off resistance.

[Edited on April 7, 2009 at 2:14 PM. Reason : blah.]

4/7/2009 2:12:42 PM

^you seem like you would be a good chief engineer at a hotel

4/7/2009 2:14:44 PM

Son, I have multiple doctorates from the following schools:

Zimbabwe School of Onsite Engineering and Fabrication

McGyver Institute of Cobble

Backwoods Scabjob Institute, Johnston County, NC

4/7/2009 2:23:15 PM

I have detonated due to hoses popping off. The Krazy Glue makes me feel better. Also a lot of those hoses connect to OEM nipples that don't have an actual lip to keep the hose from sliding off

[Edited on April 7, 2009 at 2:30 PM. Reason : barbs]

4/7/2009 2:27:04 PM

Quote :

" When I sold auto parts, we even had a universal o-ring kit with spools of o-ring stock, a guillotine cutter, and cyanoacrylate adhesive to join the ends."

yup

i went to a tractor supply store once looking for some kind of weird ass o-ring. No idea what it was for now..but they made me one with that technique. Worked perfectly.

4/7/2009 2:52:02 PM

does your waste gate short circuit the twin scroll?

4/7/2009 5:56:50 PM

Quote :

"Zimbabwe School of Onsite Engineering and Fabrication "

yeah they changed the name to "nigger rigging" in 1988 and then changed it to "presidential executive decision" in January. Please update your resume.

4/7/2009 9:28:21 PM

Quote :

"I have detonated due to hoses popping off."

maybe i'm missing something obvious, but i'm curious as to how you were getting detonation from a boost/vacuum leak? usually that causes a rich condition since the computer is still fueling for the extra air that's been metered but isn't making it to the cylinders. unless a leak can affect distributor timing advance, fpr operation, or something? not sure how wankel turbo rotaries operate those two functions off hand.

Quote :

"those vac lines arent that bad.. i've never heard of anyone using crazy glue before, i usually use a small zip tie."

same here. i used tiny zip ties everywhere on my dsm and it ran 20-23 psi most of the time. those cars are vacuum/boost leak central too. after that, i only had one other boost leak the whole time i had it. that was just a throttle body gasket, not even a hose. it's what i've used on any other turbo cars i've worked on in the past also. as long as you have decent hose and clean any grease/oil from the connection so there's friction, it didn't matter whether or not it had a barb.

when i went to the bigger turbo/wastegate actuator/tune on my f350 i zip tied everything on it also as a precaution and have never had any problems. with the boost/tune set on "kill" (30-35psi at lots of cfm) it did start blowing off intercooler lines though. i tried using big, thick zipties in addition to the clamps with no luck. rather than spend $texas on nice aftermarket couplers/clamps, i decided to try a thin bead of super glue first. no problem after that. my only issue with using super glue is when you have to replace/repair a hose it sucks to get off and the barb/nipple cleaned up for the new connection. definitely works as a last resort or cheap alternative though.

4/7/2009 11:39:00 PM

Quote :

"does your waste gate short circuit the twin scroll?"

I'm not sure if I understand the question. So I guess that means it's time for a 50 page response [cue eye rolling]. The factory 87-88 turbo had a sort of variable turbine geometry way back in the mid 80s. It had a cast short runnner, undivided turbo manifold. The turbine housing had two asymmetric inlets and a flapper door controlled by the ECU. High engine loads meant both would be open, low engine loads meant exhaust gases flowing only through the smaller turbine inlet port.



The internal wastegate bled off only one inlet port.



This is the same basic wastegate design as the internally wastegated twin scroll Holset HX35 turbos, which are not known for their boost control on a lot of applications. The 89-91 setup had a turbo manifold that completely divided the exhaust from each port, ditching the computer controlled flapper door, and sent the exhaust through two equally sized inlet ports, pictured below:



This then allowed for higher flowing, dual port internal wastegate that is not all that common on twin scroll internally wastegated turbos:



The two ports bleed off each independent passageway in the turbine housing, and the exhaust gases collect by the backplate, where they make a sharp angle and exit out the downpipe.

My current manifold, similar to the one pictured here, bleeds exhaust from each rotor's independent runner and then collects them to a single Tial 44mm wastegate which I will be recirculating this time. Some custom manifold use twin Tial 38's, one for each rotor.




finally, on to BBR's remarks:

Quote :

"but i'm curious as to how you were getting detonation from a boost/vacuum leak?"

Speed density system. a hose providing air to improve oil injector atomization blew off at 21psi. I had not secured it and in hindsight, a tighter fitting hose probably would have sufficed. It was on the back of the plenum, and the MAP sensor line was tied to the front. For some strange reason, probably due to the plenum design, the boost leak did not affect idle really, so I kept driving. The next time I boosted, my MAP sensor only read about 11psi at a true pressure of 21psi, resulting in an AFR of 15:1 and an extra 8 degrees of timing. The detonation cracked the porcelain on 3 of the 4 plugs. This was on 100 octane unleaded.

Quote :

"my only issue with using super glue is when you have to replace/repair a hose it sucks to get off and the barb/nipple cleaned up for the new connection. definitely works as a last resort or cheap alternative though."

Only a couple hoses have to come off to remove the manifold, and I left extra slack so they can be reinstalled after cutting the very end off.

4/8/2009 1:08:31 AM

i didnt realize the oem nipples were not flared at the end. it kinda makes sense in that case but i would have to agree with BBR that it would suck trying to clean up the nipple when reinstalling the line.

4/8/2009 10:11:32 AM

looks clean

4/8/2009 12:27:41 PM

i tought that kouki stuff was for the nissans?

4/8/2009 11:52:59 PM

Zenki just means first model of a particular generation, Kouki means second model. the terminology is used mostly on 240's...

4/9/2009 11:50:29 AM

kooky?

4/11/2009 10:40:20 PM