^^ I bet you still can't articulate my position, to this day.

Quote :

"yes, the GOP fear mongers about trans issues or DEI stuff or whatever. But I don’t recall seeing any Harris ads about trans issues, for example. Only GOP ads about anti-trans stuff. GOP keeps winning the messaging battle."

That's because her campaign correctly figured out that if she voiced any form of the actual Democratic/Progressive stance on trans issues she'd get trounced. Because it's just that insane. "Anything goes, you're a transphobic shitlord if you even remotely question what anyone says they are or any accommodations they request up to and including using their pronouns frog/bat, and we should be transitioning 8 year olds as soon as they express any non-conforming statements whatsoever". The GOP's stance is crazy, too: let's bash every tranny we see. How can Democrats not get a coherent, sane policy somewhere between those two? Hell if I know, but now you're left with commercials like this just blasting you as tone-deaf. And you wonder why you are losing elections to fascists

11/8/2024 11:47:44 AM

Quote :

"You're joking, right? The policy, itself, shows that's what they believe! Why else would you hide from parents that their children are setting off down a path that leads to cutting off their fucking genitals? If you think parents can't be trusted at all, that's the policy you choose! If you think literally anything else, you choose something more nuanced that recognizes a parent's innate right to be involved and aware of a child wanting to lop off body parts."

Bullshit. No existing policy does what you claim. In fact, in trying to defend yourself, thismerely demonstrates just how much right wing media has distorted your perceptions.

11/8/2024 11:57:31 AM

^ https://edsource.org/2024/newsom-signs-bill-to-end-parental-notification-policies-at-schools-but-opponents-say-its-not-over-yet/715767

11/8/2024 12:12:44 PM

Quote :

"I just stated my experience."

Lol. You're still missing the point. The experience you stated is IRRELEVANT.

Quote :

"I was a left wing atheist a lot longer than I've been a right wing troll. I never experienced bigotry for my atheism."

Now THAT may actually be relevant, but that's not what you said at all. First, you essentially said that Republicans haven't called you a bigot for having a traditionally Republican point of view, lol. Well, yeah, no fucking shit. You've now changed it to say Republicans haven't called you a bigot for having a traditionally DEMOCRATIC point of view. Okay. Congratulations, I guess? Do you just not give a shit when it happens to someone else, but not you? (FWIW, having no empathy also seems to be a GOP trait)


[Quote]Your entire post is like you're arguing against a 2012 Koch brothers funded Republican party.

[/quote]

Your original post that I responded to reads like you have no fucking clue how to support your own position. Who gives a fuck if Republicans don't bitch at you for being a Republican? Lol

11/8/2024 12:16:49 PM

^^Yeah, that's the policy I figured he was referring to. But it doesn't imply what he thinks it implies:

It does not say you can't notify a parent, but that you can't pass a law REQUIRING you to notify a parent.

So no, Democrats are not saying parents can't be trusted at all. To the contrary, Democrats are reacting to the absurd position that ALL parents CAN be trusted. I guarantee you some parents would abuse their children on hearing such news...and given that, anyone who would actually MANDATE parental notification is a fucking asshole.

11/8/2024 12:27:58 PM

Quote :

"I bet you still can't articulate my position, to this day."

is any of this still your position?

Quote :

"Two men will literally never be able to be married, simply because the definition of the word precludes it"

Quote :

"Marriage has a clear and obvious definition: one man, one woman. The ONLY way we talk about any other kind of institution is not to use the word "marriage" by itself, but to add other words"

Quote :

"The laws on the books that granted benefits to "married" people were done so with a clear and obvious meaning of the word "marriage," a meaning that, despite what you think, still means "one man, one woman."

Quote :

"Of course it doesn't, because I've changed the fucking words to mean something else, which is PRECISELY what the homosexual community has tried to do with the word "marriage."

11/8/2024 12:40:24 PM

Quote :

"Your original post that I responded to reads like you have no fucking clue how to support your own position. Who gives a fuck if Republicans don't bitch at you for being a Republican? Lol "

Yeah my original wording was weak. Sorry for the confusion.

[Edited on November 8, 2024 at 2:16 PM. Reason : a]

11/8/2024 2:16:02 PM

One would think, after scrolling through FB, that folks on the left fear that the gay and trans communities are going to be rounded up, pulled out in the street by their hair, and summarily shot on site.

And the right is accused of gaslighting?

I really don’t think Trump gives two shits what the LBGTQ+ community does. Mark Robinson? Sure, that asshole was…an asshole. But I don’t see things getting worse for the LBGTQ+ crowd.

11/8/2024 2:26:06 PM

thegoodlife can shut the fuck up about peoples old posts considering how much he used to suck kanyes dick on this website

11/8/2024 2:43:46 PM

was almost always talking about the music, not the man

the music will always be great

11/8/2024 2:49:19 PM

big fuckin oof

11/8/2024 2:51:06 PM

Quote :

"oes not say you can't notify a parent, but that you can't pass a law REQUIRING you to notify a parent. So no, Democrats are not saying parents can't be trusted at all. To the contrary, Democrats are reacting to the absurd position that ALL parents CAN be trusted. I guarantee you some parents would abuse their children on hearing such news...and given that, anyone who would actually MANDATE parental notification is a fucking asshole."

Except, not really. Your description of that law is correct, but there have been numerous lawsuits regarding this exact issue, where schools are saying a student must consent to having that info released to parents. Mirabelli vs Olson in California is one such example. I'm having trouble finding the exact policy to see what it says, but one court opinion describes the policy as exactly as I have said. There's even commentary from school officials where they say, explicitly, that parents don't have a legitimate need to know.

I'm with you: draconian forced outing policies are assholish. Forced privacy policies, where the schools begin assuming care and transition plans without notifying parents at all are equally absurd. And that seems to be the common theme of many of the policies I've found linked at this site (which seems to be a far-right loon site, but it gives links to the policies, which is all I want)

^^^^^ good work... now... draw the connection to what my actual position was... It's actually quite relevant to things today

11/8/2024 2:57:20 PM

do you still feel the same way as you did then?

also, you never answered why you left out Jim Crow in your paragraphs long screed about the history of discrimination in this country

[Edited on November 8, 2024 at 4:13 PM. Reason : .]

11/8/2024 4:01:57 PM

^^So you're against mandates either way. What proposal do you have for deciding when it is/is not appropriate to hide a child's trans issues?

And honestly, at this point I'm not 100% sure how much of this is actual California law versus a (mis?)interpretation of the law by some particular school boards.

[Edited on November 8, 2024 at 4:34 PM. Reason : ]

11/8/2024 4:11:25 PM

Also, that last link you had says, "Below is a list of school districts by state that have Transgender/Gender Nonconforming Policies that openly state that district personnel can or should keep a student’s transgender status hidden from parents."

That doesn't indicate that anything is mandatory. You just said "draconian forced outing policies are assholish", so what issue do you have with them saying they can or should (but not HAVE TO) keep it hidden from parents?

11/8/2024 4:38:58 PM

Teachers should not be required to tell on students for anything not related to discipline or academics. What kind of draconian nonsense is that we’re even discussing this

If a student is not bringing this part of themselves home for some reason, which seems rare, there’s a good reason that is none of the government’s (ie schools) business.

11/8/2024 7:04:17 PM

Are y'all having fun?

11/8/2024 7:20:30 PM

Y'all are way more fun than a boomer shitlib forum I've been on.

11/8/2024 7:37:56 PM

This thread is a decent example of why I just can’t make sense of the election.

Last 4 pages have primarily been discussing Trans issues and the most liberal school districts in the country treatment of those issues. It has such a marginal effect on my life. Maybe, MAYBE, if I lived in California or NYC this issue might be a concern for me.
Only a small handful of posts have addressed:

-that Trump’s tariff plan is literally the stupidest economic plan of any presidential candidate in our lifetimes. I’m old enough to remember the ENDLESS dogmatic economic lectures from conservative leaning posters on this board during the Obama era. “WhAt aBoUt ThE eCoNoMiC UnCErtaInty!1!1!!1!1” Trump’s plan makes raising the capital gains tax, or a wealth tax, or the ACA, or literally anything Dems have proposed in the last decade look like minor adjustments to our economic system. We should be on our hands and knees praying that some dipshit staffer can sweet talk Trump away from the brink.

-the likelihood that Netanyahu will manipulate Trump into a kinetic war with Iran. It’s Netanyahu’s and Likud’s unspoken goal for years. It’s going to be American boots on the ground for a decade. $20 trillion in cost minimum. And given the state of geopolitics currently, it could result in our children being forced to learned Mandarin and recite the CCCP pledge.

But I’m supposed to shit my pants because some blue hair teacher in California didn’t immediately taddle to a students’s parents because the student shared their preferred pronouns?

If it wasn’t going to be so painful for my family, I’d argue this stupid ass country needs to fail.

11/8/2024 8:59:18 PM

Quote :

"But this is true for both parties."

That's exactly their point.

The 2024 GOP is fucking batshit. Beating them ought to be like clubbing baby seals. We're not saying it's 100% due to not dropping the hammer on the crazies on the left, but that would definitely help.

It's not about trying to claim equivalence between the 2 parties. There is definitely no equivalence between them when it comes to crazy. It's about making it so that the average voter sees that crazy basically only resides within one of the parties. It's about making the GOP pay a greater price for their crazy.

Quote :

"Aside from Trump's unique ability to bring out single-candidate voters, I suspect the biggest albatross around the Democrats' necks was inflation, and I don't know what candidate could have shed that. You'd need somebody who was pretty critical of the Biden administration, and it's unclear to me how you even get that candidate without Biden dropping out early and going to open primaries."

Agreed mostly.

I do feel like Harris was long on idealistic, less tangible stuff like preserving democracy, and short on policy.

Also, she needed a much heavier dose of "this economy, job market, and stock market is strong. I get that inflation has been terrible. We've made some mistakes there, but here's what Trump did that also set the conditions for it. In any case, we've got it under control now. No, prices aren't going back down--that would actually be very bad, and here's why (insert 60 second lesson on deflation). Also, most non-partisan economists believe that Trump's policies would be more inflationary than mine."

While Trumps criminal, antidemocratic, authoritarian, anti-Constitution nature should be disqualifying and the #1 issue...the average person doesn't see it that way. Damned if I understand why, but they don't, and that has been obvious for a while.

Quote :

"folks would still choose Dem on the ballot because Trump was so bad. It failed. It has failed for 3 election cycles now. Democrats need to be sane. They need to call out their own people and their proxies in academia and elsewhere when they jump the fucking shark."

Yes. Exactly.

Quote :

"They are completely out of touch on trans issues. "

Yes. They don't need to let the GOP steamroll them as sacrificial lambs for putting cheap points on the board, but they do need to stop acting like everyone is a monster who doesn't accept that being trans is not normal.

Quote :

"They've spent years telling us how all men are rapists, rape culture is super pervasive on college campuses"

"Rape culture" is probably a term that should rarely if ever be used. I think that you can make the point about thinking bigger picture about the 2nd and 3rd order and systemic effects of your words and actions without widespread offensive and off-putting demonization of benign, normal men as having toxic masculinity that's contributing to rape culture.

Quote :

"They've practically erased any traditional notion of what a woman is, to the point that we have Orwellian terms such as "people who menstruate" and are forced to swallow the notion that men can be pregnant."

Yes. "People who menstruate" and "people who are pregnant" are fucking ridiculous syntax. Then there's the whole pronoun circus. Thank God they're at least finally taking a hint about "Latinx".

Quote :

"Then they've taken the tact that the entire country is irredeemably racist. "

Yes. I mentioned in another thread about my time working as an engineer in the shipbuilding industry. I suppose out of 5000-6000 people, there was a Democrat who worked somewhere in that shipyard, but I never personally identified one. It was not a National Review sort of crowd--it was Trump supporters. Some of them were full-retard MAGAs; others weren't deplorable per se but were a lot closer to Trumpism than to George Will.

I would say that trans/gender-identify stuff animated them, and gun control animated them, but THE #1 thing that pissed them the fuck off was rhetoric around what the Soap Box crowd would call systemic or intrinsic racism issues.

These people were often good examples of exactly the sort of arguments proponents of these concepts correctly make, but they were overwhelmingly not racists. I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of these blue-collar, Trump-voting rednecks in Alabama would find genuine racism abhorrent. BUT, the sort of rhetoric the left makes often comes across as something along the lines of what aaronburro was describing, plus a dash of "when black people are fucked up, that's also partly whitey's fault, too." There may be some truth to it in an academic sense, but the rhetoric needs to be substantially different, and you cannot have this shit about "wow, look at how all these terrible things we white people have done made people burn these cities down. Man, I can't believe how fucked up we are." You address those systemic wrongs, but you also have no patience for rioters and people fucking blocking off highways and stuff.

[/i]...and it can be done. You can get the point across to them.[/I] I know, because I did it, and when presented to them in the right terms, they agreed about the systemic and intrinsic racism stuff a fair amount of the time...and I think they'd agree even more of the time, and I think it would "stick" more, if it was presented in the right way to them [I]without the toxic anathema parts mixed in with it[/I].

It's a little bit about the toxic masculinity and rape culture stuff. You can make many of the same points without being shrill and offensive and arguably unfair in the way you present it, and you'll get more mileage that way, and sacrifice less political capital and influence in the process.

Quote :

"Do we even need to get into how Democrats are approaching crime? Whole stores being systematically looted in California because you can't prosecute someone for taking less than $1000 (or whatever it is)? Folks having to step over needles and feces in the streets? "

Yep. I mean, I think that pendulum has started to swing back away from at least the far edges of absurdity, but it never should have gotten there to begin with. Stuff like that is one of the starkest examples of wokeism gone wrong and gone too far.

Quote :

"Until Democrats address these things, they are going to keep losing to fascists. Trump has the spectre of fascism, but they haven't really seen it. They've seen people burning down cities and Dems dismissing it, though. They've seen Dems ignoring kids taking over entire buildings at colleges. Trump's negatives are a possibility; yours are already a god damned reality."

Yep, I think that's a good point.

I think that Trump's negatives are scarier than the reality of the Dems', and you do too or you wouldn't have voted for Harris. It's not like we voted for her because we liked her...but that's a good point on how plenty of regular people are probably evaluating this.

Quote :

"All you need to do is Not. Be. Crazy. That's it. You wipe the god damned floor with Trump and his fools if you do that. But since Democrats haven't done that for the past 8 or more years, you've got a lot to do to overcome that. Kamala had her faults, but at this point I'm not sure any Democrat is going to overcome the hurdles that party has put in front of them nationally. Fix your crazy."

I don't think it's the only problem, but it would certainly move the needle. Not the ones on the ground in SF, or the one in the arm of the bum I walked past with my daughter on a street corner in Portland, Maine...more like the NYT Election Needle.

but a point I'd like to make here's is that it's not just "Democrats" in the sense of elected politicians. Some of the stuff that's more presentation than hard policy is probably driven more by academics, journalists, writers, etc than members of Congress.

Quote :

"You might call that a Fox News fever dream, but it’s how a large majority of America sees the current Democratic Party. "

Right, exactly. It's not that every elected member of the Democratic Party is that. The vast majority are not...but some are, and the rest don't distance themselves from it and often demonize those who call it out.

Quote :

"I don’t even watch/listen/read conservative media (outside of checking in like I do with every other news site)."

Same, except I don't even "check in." I probably average 1.5-2 hours of NPR per day, and PBS News Hour 2-3 nights per week. I also read stuff like The Atlantic, Politico, and The Hill, and the Economist. Round that out with some CNN/Bloomberg/CNBC phone apps, NYT and WaPo, and WSJ.

I know exactly what he's talking about and think he's hitting the nail on the head a lot more than he's not, and it is DEFINITELY not that I'm unduly influenced by a bunch of Fox News and Breitbart and NewsMax and whatever else.

11/9/2024 12:48:43 AM

Quote :

"I work a white collar job on a team of folks from all over the country. There’s one, maybe two Democrats on the team. The rest are Republicans who are tired of the current status of both parties, but sure as hell see the Democrats as the description above paints them. Sure, that’s just anecdotal, but extrapolate that out…"

Same. There are about 30-35 of us. I think there's one registered Democrat that I know of, and only because I was bored and curious and searched online for the party registration of some friends and neighbors once. I'm pretty sure he's not a liberal Dem, either...although I've never heard him mention anything political. The rest, to my knowledge, are Republicans, and mostly along the lines of what you describe. There are a couple of MAGA types, but mostly more or less what you describe. That doesn't mean they aren't Trump voters.

I'm pretty sure that I am the closest thing to a pussy woke commie liberal in the mix.

Sure, that's just anecdotal, but that's a little more extrapolation from rjrumfel's anecdote.

Quote :

"their facebook algorithms of Matt Walsh and Dan Bongino."

I've never even heard of either of those people.

Just reinforcing my point that I get his point about why people view Dems that way, and it's not because of my Facebook feed algorithm.

Quote :

"and maybe the Republicans will get a sensible candidate for 2028 as well. "

Quote :

"To be clear, democrats never cared about transgender people, no one did, until Republicans focused group this as a divisive issue post roe v wade. This is documented history. Democrats couldn’t have just sat back and let republicans pass anti trans legislation because this inevitably becomes anti gay legislation."

Sure. I mean, I'm not specifically familiar with that history, but I'll take your word for it. Sounds right.

Don't let them scapegoat people with the law, but the rhetoric and language in opposite could have been more "this is a predatory way of handling these people who are just trying their best to deal with their problems as best as they know how", and less "these people are fine! Nothing is wrong with them! You're a bigot for thinking they might have a couple of wires crossed."

Quote :

"We’re a slave nation that became an apartheid nation until 1972. This is recent. It’s a fact that we’re a country built on white supremacy that has deep effects lingering today. I agree though democrats have not handled this well. We should be talking more about the ways we have redeemed ourselves so people don’t think things are irredeemable when they hear academics correctly state in an academic context that we’re a white supremacist nation. A secondary problem here though is academics are always going to speak bluntly on this topic, and Fox News is always going to take this out of context. This is another way democrats can’t both acknowledge reality and win the public opinion."

I think we're, maybe not completely in agreement here, but a fair amount of overlap.

...but I do think Dems, or really more to the point, "the left" (Dems implies just politicians--but they need to have leadership here) CAN do this.

Quote :

"why do democrats have to call out kids on campus, while republicans quadruple down on 1/6?"

Because the point is that the GOP is insane in a malign way.

The left needs to exploit that politically by not letting people think they are insane in any sort of way.

Also, while we're bringing up old shit that maybe isn't fair, but is part of our society's fabric...the right has had crazies over the years, and they have really started pulling away in the crazy race more recently...but over the last 60-80 years that those alive now currently have first or secondhand memory of...the left has pulled more than their weight of crazy. As a result, I'm guessing that a little bit of left-wing crazy goes a long way towards stoking people's view of the the Dems being a bit of a caricature, while--as long as they're just wearing khakis and not swastikas, people tend to maybe give a liiiiiitle bit more benefit of the doubt to people on the right.

Quote :

"Why is there just a big double standard for democrats vs republicans?"

I don't think anyone here is arguing for a double standard in the sense that you're describing.

It's more analogous to when those Marines took videos of themselves peeing on dead Taliban fighters. Why did the Marine Corps not tolerate that and say "what's the big deal about videoing yourself peeing on dead Taliban fighters, when the Taliban rape little boys and violently oppress women and drag their enemies dead bodies through the street?"

Because we're the Marine Corps and we're better than that; they're the Taliban and they're not. That's why.

Quote :

"How far does Biden or Kamala or whoever have to go in saying they support police to cancel out the defund the police debacle?"

I don't know, but it takes a while to undo that, and it has to be a lot more than just Biden & Harris, and the defund the police debacle never should have happened to start with, and any idiot should have known that. You shouldn't have to be told. WTF.

...speaking of which, that's another perfect example of something that had at least some level of policy merit, but you guys absolutely fucked the dog into the next dimension when it came to the language and the rhetoric. In the history of out-of-touch stupidity in politics, that one is on the greatest hits album. I'm not saying that the policy proposals werent' also sometimes too far, but you could have advanced a smart and good cause there by being more measured, less crazy, and not fucking moronic in your presentation of it on an absolutely galactic scale. Try: "Our police have a difficult job. We are making it more difficult by asking them to also do ancillary social work jobs. We do believe that militarization of police is a concern and should, in many cases, be restrained--which would also produce cost savings that could be better spent on other law enforcement priorities. Furthermore, we seek to build bridges between low-income communities communities of color and law enforcement, and see ample evidence that both entities seek progress towards this same goal."

Quote :

"They simply don’t align with the party, they just don’t like Trump"

I think I'm one of those that you describe.

It's not just that I don't like Trump. I don't like the current GOP, either.

I don't align with the (D) party, you're correct...but I voted straight (D) this time. It was not a vote for Dems--it was purely, 100% a vote against Republicans. But, you got my vote.

...but I've spent about the last 1,000,000 characters trying to explain why some others didn't see things that way.

Quote :

"^ that’s a whole lot of words to not mention Jim Crow at all"

Jesus fuck. Holy missing the point, Batman.

Quote :

"I really don’t think Trump gives two shits what the LBGTQ+ community does. Mark Robinson? Sure, that asshole was…an asshole. But I don’t see things getting worse for the LBGTQ+ crowd."

Back to my time in the shipyard...

I don't think any of those rednecks cared much at all about gays.

Quote :

"-that Trump’s tariff plan is literally the stupidest economic plan of any presidential candidate in our lifetimes. "

Yep, never mind the idea of replacing income tax with tariffs. I mean, wouldn't mind seeing income tax being replaced at least partially with a consumption tax like a VAT, but that is absurd.

...and I always rolled my eyes at Harris describing them as a "sales tax." Just call them what they are, and explain in simple terms why it's bad. You don't need to get into the weeds, but that was a perfect opportunity to bone up on her free-market, pro-business, good-for-the-economy bona fides and kick him right in his stupid, protectionist, inflationary balls.

Quote :

" If it wasn’t going to be so painful for my family, I’d argue this stupid ass country needs to fail. "

I'm not rooting for failure, but I'm definitely looking through a more nihilistic lens.

[Edited on November 9, 2024 at 11:02 AM. Reason : ]

11/9/2024 12:48:49 AM

Quote :

" Jesus fuck. Holy missing the point, Batman"

feel free to explain how I’m missing the point

it’s kind of insane to not mention Jim Crow during that whole screed

[Edited on November 9, 2024 at 2:23 AM. Reason : .]

11/9/2024 2:22:22 AM

Quote :

"So you're against mandates either way. What proposal do you have for deciding when it is/is not appropriate to hide a child's trans issues? And honestly, at this point I'm not 100% sure how much of this is actual California law versus a (mis?)interpretation of the law by some particular school boards. ... Also, that last link you had says, "Below is a list of school districts by state that have Transgender/Gender Nonconforming Policies that openly state that district personnel can or should keep a student’s transgender status hidden from parents." That doesn't indicate that anything is mandatory. You just said "draconian forced outing policies are assholish", so what issue do you have with them saying they can or should (but not HAVE TO) keep it hidden from parents?"

1) i only gave that link to the list of policies to give reference to those policies. That site seems like a "moms for liberty" type group, but it least gave a good common location for such policies. Almost all of them are of the form "we simply won't tell parents anything unless the student says it's ok".
2) any specific policies I might think are good are getting into the weeds now than I'd like here. Can discuss in the trans thread if you'd like

Quote :

"Teachers should not be required to tell on students for anything not related to discipline or academics. What kind of draconian nonsense is that we’re even discussing this If a student is not bringing this part of themselves home for some reason, which seems rare, there’s a good reason that is none of the government’s (ie schools) business."

I get the sentiment, I really do. But this is something that has traditions been handled by psychiatrists and other mental health professionals. People with actual significant training in diagnosing and treating gender dysphoria. The most your average teacher or administrator has is a 3 day workshop in wokeology. They simply attend the right people to be formulating any kind of plans for a minor child, much less absent an official diagnosis or a parent's notification. It's easy to see this in terms similar to sexual preference (which isn't the business of a parent), but they just aren't analogous. That's what I think is crazy about it. An 8yo girl says she identifies as a chicken, we put her in a straight jacket; let her say she identifies as a boy, and we start policing the language of folks around her without a second thought or any form of professional confirmatory diagnosis. That's nuts!

11/9/2024 11:46:25 PM

Quote :

"but a point I'd like to make here's is that it's not just "Democrats" in the sense of elected politicians. Some of the stuff that's more presentation than hard policy is probably driven more by academics, journalists, writers, etc than members of Congress."

This. When students riot on campus and pull statues down or take over buildings or shout down speakers, it's seen as "the left." Same with professors and college admits or teachers. Maybe it's not fair, but that's how it's seen. That's why I say Democrats and their proxies.

Quote :

".speaking of which, that's another perfect example of something that had at least some level of policy merit, but you guys absolutely fucked the dog into the next dimension when it came to the language and the rhetoric. In the history of out-of-touch stupidity in politics, that one is on the greatest hits album. I'm not saying that the policy proposals werent' also sometimes too far, but you could have advanced a smart and good cause there by being more measured, less crazy, and not fucking moronic in your presentation of it on an absolutely galactic scale. Try: "Our police have a difficult job. We are making it more difficult by asking them to also do ancillary social work jobs. We do believe that militarization of police is a concern and should, in many cases, be restrained--which would also produce cost savings that could be better spent on other law enforcement priorities. Furthermore, we seek to build bridges between low-income communities communities of color and law enforcement, and see ample evidence that both entities seek progress towards this same goal.""

Seriously, this one pisses me off the most. We had an actual, once-in-a-generation chance to get actual police reform through, and you dipshits fucked it up.

Quote :

"it’s kind of insane to not mention Jim Crow during that whole screed"

No, it's insane to expect me to somehow argue that Jim Crow isn't the canonical example of white supremacist policies in action. It's literally the thing that Hanna-Jones and her ilk are suggesting the rest of American history is functionally and morally equivalent to. Of course Jim Crow is functionally equivalent to Jim Crow, you stupid fuck. What it's not equivalent to is a bunch of dudes in the 18th century deciding they were tired of an absentee gov't fleecing them to pay for wars of no benefit to them, who argued quite a bit over what to do about slavery and in the end decided to punt that question to a later time so they could unite and deal with the day's current problems.

[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 12:49 AM. Reason : ]

11/10/2024 12:34:03 AM

Quote :

" Of course Jim Crow is functionally equivalent to Jim Crow, you stupid fuck. What it's not equivalent to is a bunch of dudes in the 18th century deciding they were tired of an absentee gov't fleecing them to pay for wars of no benefit to them, who argued quite a bit over what to do about slavery and in the end decided to punt that question to a later time so they could unite and deal with the day's current problems."

what an incredible paragraph

you did that. hell of a damn job.

11/10/2024 1:43:56 AM

Quote :

"I've never even heard of either of those people. Just reinforcing my point that I get his point about why people view Dems that way, and it's not because of my Facebook feed algorithm. "

@duke:

Walsh is the "What is a Woman?" guy. He's the conservative Borat now. Would put him in the grifter conservative camp, but did think that movie was funny.

You mentioned George Will before and if I could sum up with "The New Right" thinks of George Will in narrative: "George Will is such a pussy he let the entire culture get taken over by hall monitors that wanted to police language and let IV drug users shit on the street because he was too busy writing essays and smelling his own farts". He's a perfect example of the grievances the new right has with Boomer conservatives.

I'd recommend reading "The New Right": https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250154669?tag=bravesoftwa04-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1&language=en_US which summarizes all the faces of what just trounced the democrats. You can probably make it out of that without voting for Trump.

Not recommending it and it's really just one small part of one of the new right, but the book Bronze Age Mindset is kind of what coalesced the 4chan trolls into "the based shitlord". This tweet where the Seal that killed Bin Laden says Harry Sisson would be his concubine sums up the group: https://x.com/mchooyah/status/1853247567456325956

[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 10:22 AM. Reason : a]

11/10/2024 10:22:01 AM

Does he know what a concubine is, and did he just out himself as a pedophile?

11/10/2024 10:44:45 AM

Quote :

"sums up the group"

which is reason 928374 why I can't support trumpism. these dudes are not the best of humanity. they're frankly pathetic and embarrassing.

[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 10:54 AM. Reason : like how much psychological damage you have to have to talk to other human beings that way]

11/10/2024 10:52:34 AM

^ one small part of the new right,

Why are they worse than TGL* on the left? Both groups are funny and non representative of the whole.

* I know he's not really like a LibsOfTikTok video but comes off that way some times

Quote :

"Does he know what a concubine is, and did he just out himself as a pedophile? "

He doubled down and it got even better saying they were useless and would only be used for sex OR food.

So he outed himself as a gay cannibal.



[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 11:19 AM. Reason : a]

11/10/2024 11:16:27 AM

Quote :

"Why are they worse than TGL* on the left?"

i would suggest you attempt to answer this for yourself.

[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 11:21 AM. Reason : because the answer is easy if you look at the situation as an impartial outside observer]

and just like folks on the left need to call out our fringe, if you're gonna be on the right we need you to call out yours

[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 11:43 AM. Reason : plz]

11/10/2024 11:21:04 AM

Quote :

"He doubled down and it got even better saying they were useless and would only be used for sex OR food. So he outed himself as a gay cannibal."

Cool. So a real Jeffrey Dahmer type personality. What a badass hero (with CTE)!

11/10/2024 11:41:53 AM

Quote :

"I do feel like Harris was long on idealistic, less tangible stuff like preserving democracy, and short on policy. Also, she needed a much heavier dose of "this economy, job market, and stock market is strong. I get that inflation has been terrible. We've made some mistakes there, but here's what Trump did that also set the conditions for it. In any case, we've got it under control now. No, prices aren't going back down--that would actually be very bad, and here's why (insert 60 second lesson on deflation). Also, most non-partisan economists believe that Trump's policies would be more inflationary than mine.""

The "preserving democracy" stuff was one of her stronger points with a lot of voters, and policy doesn't win elections. Voters don't understand policy.

Any effort to explain the strength of the economy runs into the dual headwinds of a media that was actively promoting the "bad economy because vibes" narrative, and the total lack of economic comprehension on the part of the average voter. No amount of explanation is going to get them to tolerate the idea that you don't want lower prices. No economist is convincing anybody, because experts are no longer trusted. All of this is with the connivance of the legacy media, which is perfectly happy to keep things dumb to preserve what consumers it still has, and largely under the direction of new media.

Quote :

"You can get the point across to them.[/I] I know, because I did it, and when presented to them in the right terms, they agreed about the systemic and intrinsic racism stuff a fair amount of the time...and I think they'd agree even more of the time, and I think it would "stick" more, if it was presented in the right way to them [I]without the toxic anathema parts mixed in with it[/I]. It's a little bit about the toxic masculinity and rape culture stuff. You can make many of the same points without being shrill and offensive and arguably unfair in the way you present it, and you'll get more mileage that way, and sacrifice less political capital and influence in the process."

You can't, though. That's what you guys can't wrap your head around. We could bend over backwards trying to be sensitive to the poor Trumpers' feewings about this, use language carefully workshopped to be as inoffensive and non-shrill as can be imagined, and it won't matter. Fox news will take those terms, start saying them in their sneering tone of contempt for all things "woke" (itself a completely neutral word that has been turned into something just shy of a slur), and they will become shrill and offensive. And that's before some grad student at UC Berkeley uses a slightly less careful wording, and Fox (and the twitter nazis, and the podcasters) will use that one exclusively and attribute it to the entire Democratic party. If the Dems spend all their time playing whack-a-mole with this, they'll never get anything else done.

11/10/2024 2:08:23 PM

^ did you mean Twitter, TikTok and Joe Rogan (pod sphere)? Because all Fox can do in 2024 from what I can tell is take content with huge engagement and repost it after it went viral the day before.

11/10/2024 2:24:06 PM

What a dumb time to be alive.

11/10/2024 2:32:07 PM

That's not nothing, when you've got a large audience of people who don't really engage with Twitter, TikTok, or podcasts. The target demo for those doesn't have a ton of overlap with the target demo for lubricated catheters.

Looking at my previous post I see it has an air of hopelessness that is not really what I was aiming for. I mean, yes, the idea that you're going to be able to dress up every liberal idea in terms that are palatable to people who fundamentally aren't liberal is hopeless, but it's also not necessary to do at a Party level. It's great that Duke was able to explain some concepts in a different way and maybe win some hearts and minds, and individuals should strive to do that. But it is not and really should not be the Party's job, because none of those issues are fucking priorities.

11/10/2024 2:36:47 PM

one issue worth mentioning is most trump supporters know they are trolling and take joy in it.

thegoodlife3 absolutely does not think he is trolling (one reason he always puts off this frustrated vibe).

11/10/2024 2:48:31 PM

TGL3 posting on TWW:

11/10/2024 3:02:16 PM

^^^ true. It's particularly funny how little Boomercon's seem to be unaware of the issues that rile up the younger crowd. Like, Pompeo isn't all bad.

Fox does a good job curating it to boomer sensibility.

[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 3:16 PM. Reason : -]

11/10/2024 3:16:05 PM

not really

find it weird that my position of “bigotry is bad” riles so many people up

just let people be, man

11/10/2024 3:16:16 PM

Quote :

"my position of “bigotry is bad” just let people be, man"

i don't think either of those statements/positions/ideals are a problem.

i do hope you see how the first statement lends itself to the euphemism treadmill though. nobody can disagree with "bigotry is bad" so it ended up serving as a cudgel for frustrated left-leaning bullies to use against anybody who didn't "just let people be" enough for their liking.

same for israel/palestine. you scream for a year about something being a genocide that's not a genocide, people are inevitably going to get sick of your exaggerations and lies and bullying.

[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 3:31 PM. Reason : dems were -62 points on hamas.]

11/10/2024 3:20:43 PM

certainly seems to be for some

11/10/2024 3:26:20 PM

Quote :

"I'd recommend reading "The New Right": https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250154669?tag=bravesoftwa04-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1&language=en_US which summarizes all the faces of what just trounced the democrats."

Nothing on the right has "trounced the Democrats" since 2010. Folks sure as hell didn't vote for Trumpism. They voted against progressivism. That's what Dems didn't get about 2020: they thought they had a mandate but they didn't, because people really just didn't want the chaos of the previous 4 years. The Dems didn't get that, and instead of returning the country to normalcy and shoring up our institutions, they spent the next 2 years doing stupid shit like telling us healthcare was the same thing as a fucking bridge. They got repudiated a little in 2022 and refused to read the damn tea leaves, so here they are now, losing to fascists.
Trump has no fucking mandate, and he's going to figure that out as soon as he jacks the prices on everything up by 30-40% because of his stupid tariffs.

[Edited on November 10, 2024 at 8:15 PM. Reason : ]

11/10/2024 8:15:14 PM

It won't matter whether he has a real mandate or not as long as he claims he does and there are no checks or guardrails to stop him.

11/10/2024 8:39:08 PM

Let Donald Trump cook. Period. The people deserve it, and it is the only way he and his ilk will ever go away

11/10/2024 8:50:30 PM

Bigotry is bad

11/11/2024 12:20:11 AM

Quote :

" While Trumps criminal, antidemocratic, authoritarian, anti-Constitution nature should be disqualifying and the #1 issue...the average person doesn't see it that way. Damned if I understand why, but they don't, and that has been obvious for a while."

It’s a lot of Fox News. Anecdotally 3 of my friends have serious rifts in their family from this election due to Fox News induced lack of shared reality

They simply don’t believe any of the lawsuits from 2016 onwards and don’t care about anything before then

[Edited on November 11, 2024 at 12:48 AM. Reason : E]

11/11/2024 12:44:50 AM

I think it's a lot of that, but I don't think it's JUST that. Sure, die-hard MAGAs mostly live in a bizarro world completely divorced from reality and simple facts, and a lot of that is from Fox News (and worse). I'm not talking about irredeemable deplorables.

...but there are plenty of other people who...they're not as attuned to all the shit that Trump has done as you and I--but they're aware that Trump is a complete scumbag, and they're aware of January 6th. Some of them know that he's outright full of shit on all the election fraud stuff; others may think there's so much smoke (blown by Trump and MAGAs up their ass, but still...smoke) that there's probably some fire, but I think still think that Trump was in the wrong and is at least partly bullshitting them. I think many of them are aware that he's full of shit, even by political standards, in general.

...but they view the left as having equivalency, even though--for all their loathsome faults--there is no equivalency on the left.

11/11/2024 2:13:45 AM

Quote :

"Walsh is the "What is a Woman?" guy. "

not familiar with that, either, to my knowledge.

Quote :

"stupid shit like telling us healthcare was the same thing as a fucking bridge"

huh?

Quote :

"but it's also not necessary to do at a Party level. It's great that Duke was able to explain some concepts in a different way and maybe win some hearts and minds, and individuals should strive to do that. But it is not and really should not be the Party's job"

Maybe it should not be, but I'd argue that if is their job at least some.

...but largely I agree with you in the sense the bulk of the job is with the other tens of millions of members of "the left", not just the few hundred holding office. Average Joes on the street, media and journalists, etc.

Perfect example: a friend posted on FB about how he just painted his nails (fingers and toes) to make conservatives uncomfortable and signal that he's a safe person for gays and trans and whatever else to be around.

Look, I don't give a fuck if a 45 year old straight, albeit sorta unstable man (and I don't mean that as a slam, if anyone happens to know him. He's a good dude) wants to paint his nails...but shit like this--with the out-of-touch Facebook post behind it, all done for weird virtue signaling, is not making the left look normal and palatable to the average Joe swing-voter. It's a little thing, but the constant drip...drip...drip of left-wing silliness turns people off.

Sure, the right is all fucked up, but before you respond with some shit about MAGAs waving swastikas and how that's way worse--that's the whole point. The Dems have an opportunity for the first time in, like, 60 years to be the party associated with normalcy, and the Republicans be associated with weird shit and all sorts of WTF.

Quote :

"You can't, though. That's what you guys can't wrap your head around. We could bend over backwards trying to be sensitive to the poor Trumpers' feewings about this, use language carefully workshopped to be as inoffensive and non-shrill as can be imagined, and it won't matter. "

I don't know, I think that if there was a seismic change, it would move the needle substantially.

and it's not just about social issues. I've had a few conversations about taxing unrealized capital gains--a policy that I don't even like, other than in EXTREMELY limited application. My point was just to explain that it's not just a bunch of goddamn commie leftists wanting to redistribute wealth. I mean, that's all true, but the unrealized gains thing isn't totally batshit like it would appear at face value to anyone who isn't a goddamn commie leftist. I briefly explain the investment and tax strategies a few very basic statistics, so they understand that there is a genuine policy problem, and that taxing unrealized gains is one way to tackle it. Those thieving bastards are apt to get the details of the policy wrong, and there's a near-100% chance that they'll try to sell it by demonizing being wealthy and successful, but the basic idea isn't nonsensical, [i]per se[/I]



....but whatever, I don't know why I wasted time typing all that. The left isn't gonna be sane. They never were, and they sure as shit aren't now that they're gonna be whipped into utter hysteria every single day by the shit the Republicans are about to do.

...so I'm back to the nihilism of "Fuck it. If it burns, it burns. We deserve it anyway, after striving so throughly to flush it all down the toilet. If it gets bad, I'll move abroad. Hopefully it doesn't fuck me financially."

11/11/2024 2:51:29 AM

Quote :

"not familiar with that, either, to my knowledge."

https://youtu.be/MCBRf_AGaLU?si=jx7LMFRsgLh45kso

11/11/2024 6:15:04 AM

^^ given a fairly substantial portion of my pay has been options and RSUs because of tech jobs, how is it not commie bullshit?

It's common to have options which appreciate substantially in value that you can't sell until IPO. On paper I made money, but in reality I can't do anything about it. If you have assets you could pay the tax bill but a lot of normal workers don't and are waiting for the payday. In really extreme cases it's possible to have a tax bill exceed their yearly income.

11/11/2024 6:24:27 AM