sounds like we can get some free pre-k from the money that we send to Israel if democrats win the senate in 2020 and there is a monumental shift in partisan nature of support for Israel.

[Edited on August 15, 2019 at 1:30 PM. Reason : .]

8/15/2019 1:28:58 PM

Even AIPAC is telling Netanyahu to let them come. Should be a chance to create positive relationships and instead Netanyahu is being his typical jackass self.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/457568-aipac-pushes-back-against-israel-decision-we?fbclid=IwAR2aiKv_ZpUxZMaA6PXpIvywAc2v_KdVoXuMNPW3PLqaE2_DJ3iMddkMKLo

Quote :

"BUT, is there any OK way to critique the Israeli government from the left anymore that isn’t immediately called anti-Semitic by the right and center? Are they above all criticism?"

The distinguishment is actually pretty easy but both the left and the right have their heads up their asses about conflating the two.

This is how:

Quote :

"Likud is basically an extension of the Trump GOP, right?"

Criticizing the decisions of the government without making it a criticism of the entire population. World leaders hate Trump and the crap he is pulling. Therefore do they hate all of America? The right wants you to think so, but any sane logical person knows it's not true. Anti-Trump and anti-Wall and anti-White Nationalism does not make one anti-America. Just like being anti-Netanyahu and anti-Wall and anti-Settlements does not make one anti-Semitic. But when it turns into all of Israel (and by implied extension, all Jews everywhere) are all a certain way or believe a certain thing, it's anti-Semitism.

BDS falls under this category because there is this huge movement against Israel and not against any other national governments with equal or worse human rights violations, and ultimately it is only hurting Israeli businesses which employ a large number of Palestinian workers. BDS has no effect on the settlement business owners, so the only goal it accomplishes is spreading hate against all of Israel.

Also always worth remembering that while Trump only represents 46% of the American electorate, Netanyahu only got 26.4% of the Israeli vote, in a virtual tie with the leading left-wing party. The election held in April took place because Netanyahu lost his majority coalition, AND they have to have a second election this year because there weren't enough right-wing knesset members to create a new one.

The majority of Israelis want an end to this conflict and Netanyahu's corrupt ass out of power. Just like the majority of Americans want the same for Trump.

Quote :

"What I do wonder is if the average Likud supporter in Israel understands the Trump’s GOP associations with white supremacists and neo-nazis. American Jews are being arrested in numbers protesting ICE, American Jews are rightfully terrified of more synagogue shootings, do Israeli Jews even care?"

Netanyahu's supporters have bought into the fake-news narrative, and see liberal progressive Jews as having completely left the tribe. The religious-right in Israel won't recognize Reform Judaism (the movement I belong to, and the largest Jewish sect in North America) as having any legitimacy. Also, to right-wing Israelis, synagogue shootings in America are a drop in the bucket of world-wide anti-Semitic attacks that include bombing and the threat of a nuclear Iran.

Quote :

"I find is really strange Israel would acquiesce to this. It sets a dangerous precedent for them that they're only friends to Republicans, when historically both democrats and republicans have show excessive deference towards them."

Clinton and Rabin were on track for a peace plan until Rabin's assassination in 1995. Since then, the US and Israel have not had left-wing parties in control at the same time. Israel's next election is a month away.

8/15/2019 2:50:57 PM

Quote :

"But when it turns into all of Israel (and by implied extension, all Jews everywhere)"

Do all Jews live in Israel? Do all Jews see Israel as their homeland? Likewise, do all people with African descent see Africa as their homeland?

Many leftist Jews regard what you just said to be anti-Semitic.

[Edited on August 15, 2019 at 3:32 PM. Reason : .]

8/15/2019 3:32:11 PM

Quote :

"BDS falls under this category because there is this huge movement against Israel and not against any other national governments with equal or worse human rights violations, and ultimately it is only hurting Israeli businesses which employ a large number of Palestinian workers. BDS has no effect on the settlement business owners, so the only goal it accomplishes is spreading hate against all of Israel."

this is peak whataboutism

8/15/2019 3:41:12 PM

The argument that the BDS movement represents bigotry against Israeli Jews seems a bit disingenuous. Nobody would have labeled the BDS movement against apartheid South Africa as bigotry against Afrikaners; perhaps Afrikaners would have, but they wouldn't have been taken seriously.

8/15/2019 4:34:15 PM

^^Sometimes a whataboutism is deserved for a double standard.

Quote :

"even BDS is called violent and anti-semitic"

Quote :

"The argument that the BDS movement represents bigotry against Israeli Jews seems a bit disingenuous."

Quote :

"Do all Jews live in Israel? Do all Jews see Israel as their homeland?"

Make yourself visibly Jewish...not Israeli, not even pro Israel, just Jewish...and walk through a college campus during a BDS demonstration and let me know if you make it out without anything being thrown at your face. It's happened to me a few times. I wasn't engaging in any of it, just trying to walk by as quickly as possible, and I was singled out in the crowd.

Boycotting Israeli goods on its own is not anti-Semitic, but the BDS movement has become so. Just being Jewish is enough to become a target of their hate, they don't bother to stop and ask you how you feel about Israel. It is not the same as the movement against South African Apartheid.

The Dyke March Jewish-pride flag incident was a great/terrible example of crossing the line from anti-Israel to anti-Semitism. Jewish symbols were banned because the leaders of the group were against Israel.

Both the far-left and the far-right shove the responsibility of Israel on top of American Jews. And neither allows for any nuanced perspective, you either have to love it or hate it. Turning the entire group into a political pawn is by far the most common form of anti-Semitism in America today.

8/15/2019 8:06:09 PM

Quote :

"Make yourself visibly Jewish...not Israeli, not even pro Israel, just Jewish...and walk through a college campus during a BDS demonstration and let me know if you make it out without anything being thrown at your face. It's happened to me a few times. I wasn't engaging in any of it, just trying to walk by as quickly as possible, and I was singled out in the crowd. "

I’m having an extremely hard time believing this.

8/15/2019 8:46:18 PM

How does one “Make yourself visibly Jewish”???

Are you riding through campus in a mitzvah tank handing out cel-ray soda and pastrami on rye?

8/15/2019 10:05:06 PM

It's the same argument Christians make when talking about how they cant be outwardly christian anymore on college campuses

And I dont think its unfair to have seperate standards between advanced supposedly democratic and free allies and backwards theocratic authoritarian countries or developing nations, but that's common sense. It's also not true that Israel is 5he only nation criticized.

Peak whataboutism

[Edited on August 15, 2019 at 10:35 PM. Reason : The DC parade was a flag that looked like the israeli flag wasnt allowed in, then was. Sounds so vio]

8/15/2019 10:28:59 PM

Netanyahu and his administration aren’t making a short-sighted mistake. Banning Omar and Tlaib is strategic. They don’t want to put the spotlight on conditions in Palestine.

https://forward.com/opinion/429680/netanyahu-banned-omar-and-tlaib-because-he-has-something-to-hide-we-must/

8/15/2019 11:06:37 PM

Quote :

"The DC parade was a flag that looked like the israeli flag wasnt allowed in, then was. Sounds so vio"

I was talking about the 2017 march in Chicago.

Quote :

"How does one “Make yourself visibly Jewish”???"

You put a kippah/yarmulke on your head, which I'm always wearing outside of my home.

Quote :

"Are you riding through campus in a mitzvah tank handing out cel-ray soda and pastrami on rye?"

If I'm drinking Dr. Browns it's going to be root beer or ginger ale. My dad loves the cream soda, but I never had a taste for it.

Quote :

"I’m having an extremely hard time believing this"

Google it. You'll find plenty of similar first-hand accounts. Anti-Israel rallies on college campuses create an unsafe environment for Jewish students regardless of their own opinions of or affiliations with Israel. https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/283535/enough-is-enough-2

8/15/2019 11:08:00 PM

I live in New York and the only college campus I set foot on is NYU (bc it’s a amorphous blob) so I have no experience with what the article is describing. BUT I think many young people who claim to be in the “progressive” movement have, in their brain, completely removed the Jewish people’s “minority” status. If you’re jewish, you are white and your actions are treated like any other white person who they believe possibly has shit beliefs. The label the author writes about “historically oppressed minority people” no longer exists in this context.

Obviously this is more complicated on multiple levels but it could explain the hostility towards people who are “outwardly Jewish” as you said.

8/16/2019 2:41:03 AM

Quote :

" I was talking about the 2017 march in Chicago. "

Same thing, same flag wasnt allowed. Not violent.

8/16/2019 7:28:18 AM

Quote :

"Netanyahu and his administration aren’t making a short-sighted mistake. Banning Omar and Tlaib is strategic. They don’t want to put the spotlight on conditions in Palestine."

Is this true? I agree it’s strategic but not for that reason. He needs to court the worst of the far right and this will play well.

8/16/2019 7:45:15 AM

So is Palestine basically just non-existent anymore? Why wouldn’t Omar/Tlaib just be able to visit directly?

Seems like there’s not enough acceptance of the fact that Israel just eliminated a whole country and now have their citizens living largely in ghettos as second class people.

8/16/2019 10:05:36 AM

you can't just go to palestine, you have to go through israel to get there

8/16/2019 10:14:54 AM

8/16/2019 10:22:51 AM

Quote :

"I live in New York and the only college campus I set foot on is NYU (bc it’s a amorphous blob) so I have no experience with what the article is describing. "

The worst environments tend to be on California campuses, Berkeley being the most well known for it at this point.

Quote :

"BUT I think many young people who claim to be in the “progressive” movement have, in their brain, completely removed the Jewish people’s “minority” status. If you’re jewish, you are white and your actions are treated like any other white person who they believe possibly has shit beliefs. The label the author writes about “historically oppressed minority people” no longer exists in this context. "

This goes back to what I said about Jews being used as political pawns as a form of anti-Semitism. For the longest time in America, wealthy white Christians did everything they could to keep Jews from gaining status, all while scapegoating them as the reason other minorities were suffering (specifically African Americans and Hispanics in urban areas). They wanted the minorities to pull each other apart to keep themselves on top. That culminated in the eventual false-acceptance of Jews into the mainstream, not out of any tolerance for them, but in order to make them look worse to those minority groups who had not been assimilated. Wealthy Jews in position of power are used as "proof" that A) Jews are no longer oppressed and B) Jews are in control of EVERYTHING and need to be feared or else they might take over your life.

This is what Trump is doing every time he opens his mouth about how much he loves Jews and Israel. Despite having less than 20% support from American Jews, he makes it look like he's buddy-buddy with the worldwide Jewish community while spewing violent racist hate speech against other minority groups. But behind closed-doors, the Christian right is still spreading anti-Semitism through other means, most notably rumors that George Soros and other prominent Jews are paying protesters.



So Jews are white enough to not be considered oppressed by other minority groups, but not white enough to avoid hate crimes and scapegoating.

8/16/2019 11:03:11 AM

Quote :

"Google it. You'll find plenty of similar first-hand accounts. Anti-Israel rallies on college campuses create an unsafe environment for Jewish students regardless of their own opinions of or affiliations with Israel."

I mean, I'll give it to you, that sucks, but I've also seen the way counter-protestors act at these events, so I wouldn't place the blame solely on the BDS crowd. And I still don't believe they're targeting random Jews vs. confusing people with counter-protestors.

Regardless, it's not fair to call the entire movement anti-Semitic because of the behavior of some protestors, especially given that it's been endorsed by many Jewish people and organizations.

[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 11:06 AM. Reason : .]

8/16/2019 11:04:53 AM

Imagine the kind of oppression in that poster, or by protestors, except it's worse, done by the government, and if you criticize it it's because you're an anti-semite

8/16/2019 11:09:02 AM

i suspect that bdmazur knows more about this than yall.

[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 12:24 PM. Reason : .]

8/16/2019 12:24:32 PM

he's also received a lot more propaganda from one side

8/16/2019 12:26:36 PM

fantastic. he still knows more about it than you.

8/16/2019 12:33:24 PM

fantastic. he's still been subjected to propaganda which is reflected in many of his posts.

8/16/2019 12:40:56 PM

Really productive guys.

Quote :

"So Jews are white enough to not be considered oppressed by other minority groups, but not white enough to avoid hate crimes and scapegoating."

I agree with this for the most part. When people talk about being “Jewish” in the US it’s almost always referring to ashkenazi jews. I doubt college kids are screaming at Persian or Ethiopian Jews about the persecution of Palestinians.

[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 1:40 PM. Reason : /]

8/16/2019 1:39:45 PM

Quote :

"you can't just go to palestine, you have to go through israel to get there"

Why? Don’t they have airports or something?

8/16/2019 1:44:17 PM

I get called self-hating and an enemy of my home by the right. And I'm called biased and brainwashed and a supporter of genocide by the left. It's lose-lose.

Quote :

"Same thing, same flag wasnt allowed. Not violent."

I didn't say the Dyke March was an example of violence, I said it was an example of crossing the line from anti-Israel into anti-Semitism.

Quote :

"Why? Don’t they have airports or something?"

Not in operation currently. Israel controls the airspace (some will say because oppression, others will say to prevent rocket attacks). There used to be crossings from Egypt and Jordan, not sure if any of those are still in operation.

[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 1:57 PM. Reason : -]

8/16/2019 1:50:04 PM

Quote :

"I said it was an example of crossing the line from anti-Israel into anti-Semitism."

but they didn't allow the flag because they didn't allow nationalist symbols, and the israeli national flag used the same religious symbol of the same size and location as the flag they didn't allow. one of the flags was almost exactly the israeli flag.

you're trying to equate that with antisemitism but it is israel that uses religious symbols, identifies as a religious nation, and offers citizenship based on religion

DC
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jun/7/dyke-march-bans-israeli-and-jewish-pride-flags-pal/

Quote :

"However, pro-Zionist and “nationalist symbols,” including Israeli and Jewish Pride flags, will not be welcomed at the event, organizers said. Yael Horowitz, a Jewish march organizer, said the ban is a protest against “nations that have specific oppressive tendencies.” “If someone would show up with an American flag but with the stripes as a rainbow, we would treat it the same way,” she told The Post. “I think what’s getting erased here is pro-Israel and pro-Jewish are very different things.” The Palestinian flag, however, will be permitted, she added. “Jewish stars and other identifications and celebrations of Jewishness (yarmulkes, tallit, other expressions of Judaism or Jewishness) are welcome and encouraged,” Ms. Horowitz said in a Facebook "

chicago:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/06/demonstrators-carrying-star-of-david-flags-kicked-out-of-chicago-dyke-march.html

Quote :

" One member of the Dyke March collective said those carrying the rainbow flag with a Star of David in the middle were told to leave because the flags “made people feel unsafe,” adding that the march was “anti-Zionist” and “pro-Palestinian,” according to the Windy City Times. American flags also were reportedly not welcome at the event, although it isn’t clear whether anyone was kicked out for having one. Flags from other nations appears to have been allowed. [...] Yesterday during the rally we saw three individuals carrying Israeli flags super imposed on rainbow flags. Some folks say they are Jewish Pride flags. But as a Collective we are very much pro-Palestine, and when we see these flags we know a lot of folks who are under attack by Israel see the visuals of the flag as a threat, so we don’t want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism,” she said. “So we asked the folks to please leave. We told them people in the space were feeling threatened.”"

[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 2:25 PM. Reason : .]

8/16/2019 2:19:33 PM

^^,^^^
Additionally, Palestinians are not allowed to travel between Gaza and the West Bank, into Israel, or outside of Israel, outside of exceptional circumstances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_freedom_of_movement#Movement_between_Gaza_and_Israel

Quote :

"Gazan residents are only admitted to Israel in exceptional humanitarian cases. Since 2008, they are not allowed to live or stay in Israel because of marriage with an Israeli. Israelis who want to visit their partner in Gaza need permits for a few months, and Israelis can visit their first-degree relatives in Gaza only in exceptional humanitarian cases."

Palestine is a prison.

[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 2:22 PM. Reason : .]

8/16/2019 2:22:00 PM

DIGGS IS DENIED VISA BY SOUTH AFRICANS
Jan. 8, 1972

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/01/08/archives/diggs-is-denied-visa-by-south-africans.html

and

8/16/2019 3:01:19 PM

Quote :

"but they didn't allow the flag because they didn't allow nationalist symbols, and the israeli national flag used the same religious symbol of the same size and location as the flag they didn't allow. one of the flags was almost exactly the israeli flag. you're trying to equate that with antisemitism but it is israel that uses religious symbols, identifies as a religious nation, and offers citizenship based on religion"

You're going to call this whataboutism again, and I don't care.



(Flag of Turkey, a country which attempted genocide against ethnic and political Armenians)



(The "Christian America" flag, which has been used by white nationalists)



(But it's THIS ONE that crosses the line?)

Telling Jews their religious symbol isn't allowed while everyone else's is, because a country uses the same symbol? Absolute hypocrisy.

[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 3:09 PM. Reason : -]

8/16/2019 3:05:53 PM

which of those flags are you claiming were used in the march, because they said even american flags weren't allowed

at least though you are acknowledging that it was a pride version of the israeli flag (which is why it wasn't allowed), and not a pride flag that happened to have a religious symbol on it (which is what you were pretending it was when you tried to make it anti-semitic)

i'm looking through the photo gallery of the event now, i don't see any of those flags used (i do though see people openly identifying as jewish)
i don't know how to link to a fb photo gallery, but click this link and then scroll down to photo gallery. find me a picture of any of those other flags:
https://www.facebook.com/events/mcpherson-square-park/dc-dyke-march-2019/332325250941613/



[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 3:40 PM. Reason : 2 of the event's 7 community partners were jewish organizations]

8/16/2019 3:24:01 PM

Again, I'm talking about 2017 in Chicago, when they had zero policies about flags, and pride flags of all three Abrahamic religions were there, but the Jewish one was the one that caused problems and was asked not to be waved. Maybe that led to no flags being allowed at future events, but at that event in that moment, Jewish expression was shut down because the march leaders were anti-Zionist.

There is a pride flag that does look exactly like the Israeli flag:


But that's a clear and obvious difference from just a star on a rainbow background.

Quote :

" same religious symbol of the same size and location as the flag they didn't allow"

If the star had been aligned to the left side of the flag instead of the center, you think they would have allowed it? I highly doubt that.

8/16/2019 4:55:39 PM

Chicago had the same rules, they didn't want nationalist symbols and didnt even allow american flags.

Are you claiming there were turkish pride flags at the chicago march?
chicago:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/06/demonstrators-carrying-star-of-david-flags-kicked-out-of-chicago-dyke-march.html

Quote :

" One member of the Dyke March collective said those carrying the rainbow flag with a Star of David in the middle were told to leave because the flags “made people feel unsafe,” adding that the march was “anti-Zionist” and “pro-Palestinian,” according to the Windy City Times. American flags also were reportedly not welcome at the event, although it isn’t clear whether anyone was kicked out for having one. Flags from other nations appears to have been allowed. [...] Yesterday during the rally we saw three individuals carrying Israeli flags super imposed on rainbow flags. Some folks say they are Jewish Pride flags. But as a Collective we are very much pro-Palestine, and when we see these flags we know a lot of folks who are under attack by Israel see the visuals of the flag as a threat, so we don’t want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism,” she said. “So we asked the folks to please leave. We told them people in the space were feeling threatened.”"

[Edited on August 16, 2019 at 7:21 PM. Reason : Are you trolling or did you just confuse yourself into a dumb argument?]

8/16/2019 7:19:02 PM

Netanyahu says Israel will annex parts of West Bank

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/10/world/netanyahu-israel-west-bank-jordan-valley/index.html

9/10/2019 5:34:25 PM

Netanyahoo should be getting the same international treatment that Putin does.

9/10/2019 5:48:09 PM

Exactly one week before the election, what a coincidence.

9/10/2019 6:19:07 PM

I hope someone other than Netanyahu is elected!

9/10/2019 8:23:12 PM

Most recent poll shows Blue&White 32, Likud 31.

But that's not far from what it looked like in 2015 and then Netanyahu spoke to the US Congress and the world-wide coverage of it pushed him over the hump. It's obvious what he's trying to do with this new far-right announcement.

The bigger story is that Netanyahu's coalition, which is currently 60 seats, is only projecting to win 53 seats. That puts his opposition at 67 seats.

However, since the Arab parties have once again said they refuse to join a coalition (even a far-left one), the chances are very low of forming any left-of-center coalition. Ayman Odeh said he would consider it under certain conditions, but the Joint List as a whole has not gotten on board.

The Joint List is projecting 11 seats right now, which means the non-Arab left-wing is only looking at 56.

A coalition of 61 seats is needed to make a government.

9/11/2019 4:11:50 PM

^Is there another election if both coalitions are under 61 seats?

9/11/2019 5:45:07 PM

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/12/what-john-bolton-departure-means-for-israel-netanyahu-iran-trump/

Fuck Israel
Fuck Bolton

Maybe the only good thing Trump did.

9/14/2019 11:30:56 AM

^^Yep. And Israelis are already fed up about having to vote this second time, and the assumption is voter turnout will shrink each consecutive election. Some are calling it a constitutional crisis. One time, in 1996 I think, they did try a national vote for PM because there was no way a coalition would come into place. It hasn't happened since, but it may be necessary.

If the Arab List has the numbers to give Blue&White a parliamentary majority, then they will be in a prime position to negotiate on the platform. But they have to be willing to join the coalition.

9/14/2019 5:37:01 PM

^If there were a national vote for PM, who do you think would get the most votes. I got a feeling Netanyahu would win

9/16/2019 10:40:21 PM

^it would be close, but I'm not so sure he would win.

Election day is here. And Netanyahu was already busted for violating the rules via radio broadcasts.

9/17/2019 8:58:14 AM

We'll, this is an absolute mess. Netanyahu must know he's in danger: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-israel-election-2019-netanyahu-claims-palestinian-interference-pa-denies-1.7854652

9/17/2019 2:42:16 PM

Reminder

9/17/2019 4:29:07 PM

Please let this be the time.

9/17/2019 7:56:07 PM

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-election-netanyahu.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Even if Netanyahu doesn’t win, I bet Gantz doesn’t build a coalition

9/17/2019 10:55:20 PM

^^^That's a misleading statistic, since those people are Palestinian citizens and not Israeli citizens, and they vote in Palestinian elections. Israeli citizens of Palestinian ethnicity vote in Israeli elections and not in Palestinian ones.

The big "rumor" going around is a potential "center" coalition between Blue&White, Likkud, and Yisrael Beiteinu, manufactured by Avigdor Lieberman (the one who left Netanyahu's last coalition sparking the need for an election in the first place). Benny Gantz would be PM, and the only way it would happen is if Netanyahu is removed from Likkud leadership.

I don't like how that would inevitably pull Gantz to the right in order to keep such a coalition, but if it's how we get Netanyahu out of office then it's a step in the right direction.

The best news so far is that the Otzma Yehudit ("Jewish Power") party, which ran on its own and not part of any joint list for the first time, did not receive enough votes to get even a single seat.

[Edited on September 18, 2019 at 1:47 AM. Reason : -]

9/18/2019 1:44:09 AM

With 92% of the votes counted:

Left - 43
Blue&White - 32
Labor/Gesher - 6
Democratic Union - 5

Right - 56
Likkud - 32
Shas - 9
UTJ - 8
Yamina - 7
Jewish Power - 0

Left but won't join with any Zionist coalition - 12
Arab List - 12

Right but hates Netanyahu and won't join coalition with Orthodox parties (UTJ/Shas) - 9
Yisrael Beiteinu - 9

[Edited on September 18, 2019 at 2:24 AM. Reason : -]

9/18/2019 2:21:01 AM