Not to derail this whole discussion, but it's fun to imagine a late-transitioning Shaq with pigtails just dominating in the WNBA

[Edited on March 27, 2022 at 10:33 AM. Reason : Page 3's the page for me]

3/27/2022 10:32:49 AM

I think they made a movie about that.

3/27/2022 10:55:43 AM

^^ or a late transitioning Mike Tyson stepping into a ring and wrecking shit with his feminine side.

3/27/2022 12:02:23 PM

Quote :

" It's unfortunate when all positions reaching the same conclusion on a nuanced issue get coupled together as if a monolith. Not all of it stems from hate"

Not all of it stems from hate, but it’s a tactic being used as a gateway for hate. Initially it was framed as transgender people invading bathrooms to assault people (which is an absurd scenario anyway you try to slice it), now it’s being framed as transgender people drooling at the mouth to takeover women's sports and win all the medals. It’s such a rare scenario with many nuances, that it can be handled on a case by case basis, or on the level of the governing body of whatever sport is at issue.

But instead national politicians are using disingenuous imagery to say “look how gross these transgender people are, they’re coming for your young girls, and democrats want it to happen!!”

Meanwhile Texas is passing laws to literally take transgender kids from their parents, other rightwing places are making it okay to harass and discriminate against transgender people in schools— kids already at a significantly increased risk of suicide. It’s the camel in the tent— the nose was “which bathroom should transgender people use” the head is “what sports should transgender people use” and the whole body is going to be rolling back LGBT rights. But the nose never belonged in the tent in the first place, because transgender people were never trying to assault people in bathrooms, transgender people aren’t trying to take over womens sports to win medals.

[Edited on March 27, 2022 at 12:46 PM. Reason : ]

3/27/2022 12:36:45 PM

How rare a scenario is it? This is not the first time this has happened at championship levels in recent years. A cursory search with minimal effort will demonstrate as much. If you want me to post supporting articles (factual reporting of events, not opinion hit pieces), I will.

I don't agree that transgender athletes winning titles against cisgendered females advances the goal of equality and inclusion. As a single male, I admittedly don't have a dog in the fight, but as a member of society seeking to make reasoned and rational decisions around topics of public interest, I remain puzzled at some apparently viewing this in such absolute terms with little evidence of moderation of views in light of repeat evidence of policy problems for an admittedly emergent issue.

I DO agree that people's lives are dramatically more important than any sports titles, and I assure you I don't seek any alignment with the likes of Majorie Taylor Greene. I also don't seek to inflame the passions of the most hateful elements of our society. Rather, an objective view of the situation seems like it would highlight some immutable biological and physiological facts for which in some cases we have not yet established the thresholds of "fairness". I'm trying to understand whether those supporting these developments don't recognize or agree on those, or whether they find it justified to ignore them in favor of what they perceive to be the greater good.

Arguments have been put forward in this thread that sports are meaningless (no real disagreement), and that no one really cares about women's sports anyway (with the exception of parents, family, and the participants themselves, probably also mostly true). I don't want to be accused of telling people to "stay in the closet", but with the current level of national discourse and the manufactured furor, is Lia Thomas helping or hurting the cause? What about participating in sports for leisure like many less-gifted or talented cisgendered athletes choose or are forced to do at high school and collegiate levels until things cool off a bit and some guardrails are established that can be generally agreed to be fair. Does pushing the envelope in the short term invite a more severe reaction among the most fearful?

If I had a daughter who was competitive at these levels, I would admit to being annoyed by this. I think completely ignoring this viewpoint is a progressive blind spot. Help me understand.

3/27/2022 1:55:19 PM

Quote :

" Rather, an objective view of the situation seems like it would highlight some immutable biological and physiological facts for which in some cases we have not yet established the thresholds of "fairness"."

This is a red herring in this discussion imo. Athletes already come from wildly dissimilar physical background and particularly in womens sports, when a muscular woman is dominant, she isn’t given her due credit. The Williams sisters are the clearest example, but there was a black female African Olympic athlete a few years ago that people demanded a test on, saying she was secretly male and lying about it (she was biological female just with masculine features). The elite athletes generally always have some biological predisposition to winning. Michael Phelps has freakishly long arms, should there be arm limit lengths? Even the Williams sisters lost sometimes to competitors that are far more petite, so physical presence isn’t a guaranteed winner. Saying competitors can’t have “Biological immutable” advantages is not objective, it’s entirely subjective, because what biological traits might lead to winning varies constantly. There’s a tribe in Africa that consistently produces the best marathon runners, should people from this tribe be banned for winning too much? I don’t think so, because even if they always win, they push all other runners to do better. It is technically unfair but there’s no way to fix that without creating so many categories that you might as well hand out participation trophies.

The governing bodies have rules im assuming for people born intersex, they have rules on performance enhancing drugs, I don’t see how having and adhering to standards for transgender people is any different, people just seem mad that one of these transgender people won. It’s like accusing someone of secretly using PEDs, but if someone passed all their drug tests, it’s just haters hating. I don’t know the details in lias case, but If they need to increase the time an athletes has been transitioning or have minimal doses of hormone therapies, or whatever then fine, but the idea that transgender women will always dominate is not scientific, there’s no evidence of this. Show me statistics that transgender women are winning at rates higher than their population in the sport, normalized to other factors (training regiment etc) then I’ll believe objectivity is the goal. But I think this is politicians taking an anomalous situation that makes people uncomfortable on the surface because of its novelty, and trying to amplify it in disingenuous ways for broader political goals.

This is a god thread that touches on how the biological argument doesn’t work because biology is intrinsically nebulous https://twitter.com/corvidresearch/status/1507274206144495628?s=21

3/27/2022 3:37:20 PM

Are you talking about Caster Semenya?

She "is an intersex woman, assigned female at birth, with XY chromosomes and naturally elevated testosterone levels caused by the presence of internal testes." Everyone has a different personality, but if your advantages are known to come from chromosomal anomalies, how does it feel like a legit sporting achievement to go out and dominate XX females?

I did see a case of a female to male transgender athlete who wanted to wrestle against boys, but was not allowed to due to Texas law and had to instead wrestle against females whom he predictably dominated. I certainly have sympathy in that case, and that sounds like a really dumb law, but it's Texas. If you want to compete against boys and men, I see little reason to prevent that. In my high school career there were several schools who fielded female wrestlers at some of the lower weight classes. They weren't that good, and no one had much of a problem with it except for the general awkwardness for pubescent boys and the fear of potentially losing to a female competitor (which I never saw happen).

I don't understand where you're coming from. Of course there are differences in biology. It sounds like you have very committed positions on trans issues in general that you are extending to competitive sports questions specifically while admitting you haven't really followed it very closely. Here's a sampling of times this supposedly rare event has already occurred. I can't provide you the statistics because I don't know the rates of transgenderism or transgender athletes, but these are only reports of when the so-called rare male to female transitioner has won sporting events at the highest level at which they are competing against biological females. It also seems like so much less of an issue in team sports where at least the impact would be muted. With individual sports it's hard to hide the inherent advantages of male biology.

https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports/amp

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/operations/legal/article/15156762/transgender-girls-win-state-track-championships

https://www.outsports.com/2019/6/3/18649927/ncaa-track-champion-cece-telfer-transgender-athlete-fpu-trans-testosterone

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a29578581/rachel-mckinnon-world-championship-masters-win-transgender-sport-debate/

https://amp.floridatoday.com/amp/5100720001

I'm not suggesting trans athletes should be excluded from athletics. I'm trying to understand what's inherently hateful about something informed by the best science we have and yet still less than a free-for-all approach in historically female athletics, and why some are being so stubbornly resistant to that. Lia Thomas is not an isolated occurrence. We can debate what constitutes "rare", but there should be a middle ground between essentially anything goes based on your definition of gender identity, and that trans athletes should be immediately banned because they are going to topple all cisgender female records within 5 years. Am I crazy? (Or maybe just an incurable bigot?)

3/27/2022 5:27:59 PM

Because claiming that anyone who has a different opinion than yours is hateful is simple and easy. And it almost always seems to work.

I saw a FB post calling anyone who doesn't agree with this Lia Thomas thing dangerous....DANGEROUS.

3/27/2022 9:28:36 PM

https://www.mississippifreepress.org/22283/ex-gop-gov-candidate-calls-for-firing-squad-for-trans-rights-supporters-political-foes/

3/27/2022 9:53:46 PM

Well, that's patently insane.

3/27/2022 9:57:43 PM

^^^they were having a normal discussion and you come in with your nonsense



[Edited on March 27, 2022 at 10:55 PM. Reason : What question are you even answering]

3/27/2022 10:54:33 PM

Quote :

"I'm not suggesting trans athletes should be excluded from athletics. I'm trying to understand what's inherently hateful about something informed by the best science we have and yet still less than a free-for-all approach in historically female athletics, and why some are being so stubbornly resistant to that. Lia Thomas is not an isolated occurrence. We can debate what constitutes "rare", but there should be a middle ground between essentially anything goes based on your definition of gender identity, and that trans athletes should be immediately banned because they are going to topple all cisgender female records within 5 years. Am I crazy? (Or maybe just an incurable bigot?) "

3/28/2022 10:29:54 AM

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdygz/trans-kids-gender-affirming-care-doctors

3/28/2022 10:48:19 AM

are these links just general information for the thread? or in response to coz and rumfel specifically?

3/28/2022 10:59:14 AM

they’re to point out the anti-trans fervor that is currently going on in this country and a lot of those stoking the flames are using the Lia Thomas situation as a gateway drug

it’s the 2022 version of GamerGate

“it’s about fairness in womens sports!” is the new “it’s about ethics in gaming journalism”

3/28/2022 11:49:14 AM

To the Lia supporters, would you be fine with a trans woman competing who does not take any sort of supplements/blockers? How about if the person identifies as female without actually being trans?

3/29/2022 10:24:26 AM

I identify as the cucumber that Bette Midler uses to pleasure herself.

3/30/2022 9:42:11 PM

Quote :

" I'm not suggesting trans athletes should be excluded from athletics. I'm trying to understand what's inherently hateful about something informed by the best science we have and yet still less than a free-for-all approach in historically female athletics, and why some are being so stubbornly resistant to that. Lia Thomas is not an isolated occurrence. We can debate what constitutes "rare", but there should be a middle ground between essentially anything goes based on your definition of gender identity, and that trans athletes should be immediately banned because they are going to topple all cisgender female records within 5 years. Am I crazy? (Or maybe just an incurable bigot?) "

It’s not clear to me what you’re advocating for. These sports, as mentioned in the articles you linked, have science based guidelines already. This is not a science topic I’ve studied so I generally just trust the scientist in these organizations. But the fact that some trans women are winning under the guidelines that exist isn’t a logical reason In itself to doubt the guidelines. You’d need to show the wins are at unusual rates, and by unusual margins. Then guidelines can be brought into line to normalize those metrics.

It’s not inherently hateful to wonder how trans ppl should participate in sports, but the people with an anti-trans agenda are using nebulous invocations of “science” to push this agenda, while ignoring actual science that exists on this topic.

3/30/2022 10:17:58 PM

do you think most of the active TWW posters have an anti-trans agenda? this is just a place for people to hang out, socialize, and just generally screw around!

3/30/2022 10:41:05 PM

I don’t think most ppl here have an anti trans agenda, but the way we talk about trans people and frame the issue with transgender people
is often driven by the broader anti trans agenda. The bathroom stuff is a perfect example (whipping up fear of trans ppl in bathrooms), now the same thing is happening with sports, they’re also now going after all gay people again. There’s not a clear settled answer for sports but it’s not the case that womens sports are fundamentally threatened by transgender people.

Transgender people exist, we don’t have a “cure” for it, they suffer very high rates of suicide and mental health issues, and currently gender affirmative care has shown to be the best treatment for the psychological aspects.

When the starting point of the discussion is “should transgender ppl be allowed to compete” then we’re playing into the anti-trans agenda. The better question is what conditions should a transgender person have to meet to compete in the sports that match their gender identity.

3/31/2022 2:09:38 AM

Quote :

"The better question is what conditions should a transgender person have to meet to compete in the sports that match their gender identity."

That's a good question. What conditions are you thinking of? Stuff like "testosterone levels lower than X" or "at least X years since transition"? And what constitutes transition?

3/31/2022 8:45:55 AM

Perhaps a transition before puberty?

3/31/2022 11:06:13 AM

^ currently illegal in Texas and new laws coming in a few other conservative states

[Edited on March 31, 2022 at 12:24 PM. Reason : ]

3/31/2022 12:24:13 PM

Quote :

" The Georgia GOP just shoved their trans youth sports ban into their anti-CRT legislation, 15 minutes to midnight on the last day of session. It has passed. It is so hard to reconcile being in a state that hates people for who they are with the love I have for us. I’m sorry."

Bill moving forward in Georgia. Originally was just going to ban teaching about racism against black Americans, but they slipped in anti trans stuff too. Trumpist gop has been pushing to undo the civil rights lesbians and gays have gained in recent years, and they have black and brown people in their targets too.

4/5/2022 12:16:27 AM

This is the future liberals want:
https://youtu.be/d8WLXyX-jn4?t=899

4/5/2022 10:32:18 AM

I meant this one
https://youtu.be/d8WLXyX-jn4?t=1227

4/5/2022 11:33:15 AM

Any future with more wrasslin' is one I can get behind

4/5/2022 12:37:25 PM

http://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1582409331295019008

Quote :

" It went from "we're just concerned about women's sports" to "we want to ban all drag shows" in less than a year. Depending on the wording of the legislation, it could effectively criminalize being trans and/or gender non-conforming in public. https://t.co/tR65zplhGUhttps://t.co/HRqsE6Lx7M"

10/20/2022 3:41:23 PM

Should drag shows be banned? Absolutely not.

Should there be guidelines as to whether or not children should be allowed in some of them? Yes. Some videos/pictures have surfaced of "All ages welcome" drag shows that really shouldn't be for all ages. So perhaps that is what's driving the legislation?

To think that parents even want their kids watching some of these shows is pretty sickening. Not because it's potentially a man dressed up as a woman, but because of the way they're dressed, the way they're dancing, and the music that is getting played. The latest one in Texas even had participants receiving sex toys in front of children. That's not ok.

And sure, the woman who aired the video is from conservative media...one that I don't like at all, but that shouldn't discount the fact that it's happening.

Adults should do adult things in front of other adults.

10/21/2022 12:34:13 PM

is anybody forcing parents to take their kids to drag shows?

10/21/2022 12:48:04 PM

also, you may wanna refrain from watching any content from a piece of shit bigot

there is only one reason she posts videos, and it’s going to get people killed

10/21/2022 2:09:28 PM

If you think it's a good idea to bring children to what I saw, then you're part of the problem. There is no reason any child should witness sex toys being brandished and handed out. It's so close to exposing them to porn that it's laughable, but not funny. I've seen videos of several that go too far, but I'm sure they are the minority.

Sure that woman has an agenda, but again, videos don't lie, and there's no room for tricky editing here.

I see nothing wrong with having people dress in drag and come to a local library and read aloud to kids. I don't get it, but hey, whatever. But some of these shows go beyond what'd decent for children to witness. Just don't advertise something for all ages when maybe it should be for adults.

10/21/2022 3:37:06 PM

It’s really disturbing that conservatives are fixated on children’s genitalia and sexuality.

10/21/2022 3:38:14 PM

Quote :

" Sure that woman has an agenda, but again, videos don't lie, and there's no room for tricky editing here."

this was your response after reading that her agenda is not only bigoted, but is going to get people killed

Quote :

" If you think it's a good idea to bring children to what I saw, then you're part of the problem. "

what is “the problem” you’re referring to and can you elaborate on what you think it is?

again, who is forcing parents to take their kids to drag shows?

if you don’t want to take your kids to one, don’t. it’s pretty simple.

10/21/2022 5:25:42 PM

https://www.wral.com/proud-boys-pro-confederate-protesters-show-up-to-sanford-lgbtq-event-after-organizers-face-death-threats-online/20546368/

10/31/2022 11:02:47 AM

Quote :

"is anybody forcing parents to take their kids to drag shows?"

We've reached the bottom of the slippery slope.

A child is not able to consent to going to a drag show comprised of gay men, dressed like women, doing striptease routines. It's not an appropriate place for kids. This would have been commonly understood by everyone about 3 years ago. Now people are saying well ackshually we've always brought 6 year olds to drag events and let them shove dollar bills into men's thongs..

I have a theory that most prog parents don't even like drag shows, they're just exposing their kids to inappropriate shit to Own The Chuds.

---

Anyway, people born men should be totally banned from participating in any kind of competitive sport against other women, regardless of when they transitioned, what drugs they're on, what their T levels are, etc. Even most liberal women think there's something not quite fair about trans women competing. Everyone knows the truth, they're just afraid to say it.

10/31/2022 11:26:02 AM

Quote :

" drag show comprised of gay men, dressed like women, doing striptease routines."

why did you feel the need to add the “gay” qualifier?

10/31/2022 11:47:37 AM

I bring it up because these shows are often explicitly sexual, and the performers sexuality is on full display. Their sexuality is the point.

In general, we try to keep kids out of the domain of raw sexuality because we recognize that they aren't old enough to understand or process what they're seeing. At least, we did try. I recognize that modern libs have some, uh...progressive views when it comes to children and sex.

10/31/2022 12:26:17 PM

why does their sexual orientation matter?

10/31/2022 12:30:41 PM

It'd be inappropriate if they were straight too...but they never are. Why that is, I'll leave to speculation.

But just to clarify, do you think that children should be putting dollar bills into men's thongs?

10/31/2022 12:38:16 PM

I heard these children are jacking off trannies too.

10/31/2022 12:51:30 PM

^^ I’ve been pretty clear on it being up to the parents if they want to take their kid or not

Quote :

"It'd be inappropriate if they were straight too...but they never are. Why that is, I'll leave to speculation."

your mask is slipping off

10/31/2022 1:02:43 PM

Quote :

" I bring it up because these shows are often explicitly sexual, and the performers sexuality is on full display. Their sexuality is the point."

This has nothing to do with sexual orientation

10/31/2022 2:06:48 PM

Quote :

"I’ve been pretty clear on it being up to the parents if they want to take their kid or not"

What if they want to take their kids to a strip club?

I'll just cut to the chase. I know that, somewhere in your brain, you believe there's a limit to what children should be exposed to, regardless of whether or not their parents approve of it. Parents have molested their children. Parents have sent their children to work in the coal mines. Parents have taken their kids out of school and put them into some sort of extremist/religious homeschooling cult. And I know you would be against all of those things, even if the parents approved.

So, really, I'm trying to get it into progressive/liberal heads that not everything should be permitted. Some things are just wrong. Not everything boils down to a simple matter of consent.

The modern liberal feels like they have to support all manner of degeneracy, up to and perhaps beyond taking children to mock strip shows, when really, you don't. You could support all the other things you care about, like abortion, climate change, etc, without supporting exposing children to extremely sexual environments. You aren't owning the Rethuglicans by sending little Johnny to Drag Your Kids to Pride. You're just owning yourself.

10/31/2022 2:40:53 PM

^what should the penalty be for doing so?

10/31/2022 2:46:16 PM

I think the "kids putting dollar bills into men's things" is mixing a few separate events based on 2 minutes of googling, a burlesque show with a cis woman with a kid putting money in her thong, then a drag show with kids handing money to clothed drag Queens.

10/31/2022 3:05:36 PM

Quote :

"^what should the penalty be for doing so?"

I'd settle for public shaming and not openly talking about how cool it is to bring kids into that environment. We don't need a law for stuff like this if people would just use common sense.

^ Both of those sound pretty bad to me? Whatever we've seen on TikTok or Twitter, I'm sure worse has happened.

There was a time when the left was kinda sorta against the sexualization/over-sexualization of minors, and then somehow, they decided to get back into it. Weird hill to die on and freaks out a lot of parents who would otherwise vote Dem.

Just take your kids to the zoo or the playground or something like that. I don't get it.

[Edited on October 31, 2022 at 3:10 PM. Reason : ]

10/31/2022 3:09:51 PM

Just have lynch mobs enforce this common sense. Ironically, those used to be wholesome family activities.

10/31/2022 3:16:21 PM

Quote :

" There was a time when the left was kinda sorta against the sexualization/over-sexualization of minors, and then somehow, they decided to get back into it"

who is in favor of the sexualization of minors?

there’s a reason why I used the term you used

10/31/2022 5:33:35 PM

Republican white trash at child pageants.

10/31/2022 6:52:16 PM