I assume you're talking about my "one doesn't believe in science" comment.

This is important, specifically because it's not semantics. It's equating understanding the benefits of the scientific method with believing in mysticism. It's exactly what the Intelligent Designers try to do when they say "Creation Science". And exactly what this very asshole is trying to do when he said that science is our "best guess". Religion and science are not comparable belief systems.

Science doesn't work that way. It's not a belief system. It's a method for discovering and refining facts.

The only reason "religious" people could both accept scientific methods and their entirely unscientific beliefs is that they don't take the time to apply the scientific method to those beliefs. I know I've brought this up before, but it's simple compartmentalization. Yes, there are plenty of religious scientists and damned smart ones at that. The pioneer of Big Bang cosmology was Monsignor Georges Lemaître, a Catholic priest. Really really really smart dude. Probably wrong about the God thing though.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 1:58 PM. Reason : CaPiTiLiZaTiOn]

5/20/2010 1:57:26 PM

Some moral support (from an otherwise anti-EDMD blog post):

Quote :

"...noted Islamic critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali, whose book "Nomad: From Islam to America" was published this week, says the protest "is a positive campaign" that can "promote self-reflection among Muslims." "

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/comic-riffs/2010/05/their_turn_12_top_cartoonists.html

Frankly, if it's cool with Hirsi Ali, it's cool with me.

And a predictable opinion piece at Fox News, titled, "The Facebook Creed? Racism's Bad, Bashing Religion Is Good."

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/05/20/tommy-seno-muhammad-cartoons-facebook-islam-christianity/#

5/20/2010 2:24:32 PM

Less pictures of Mohammed and more pictures of her plz:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/TV/05/19/miss.usa.behar/index.html?hpt=C2

5/20/2010 5:08:24 PM

Nobody here seems to understand the point of Draw Mohammad Day. It isn't to be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. It's a form of protest against the recent deaths and threats of death by islamic fundamentalists against people who have drawn mohammad. The idea was to have thousands of people join in so that people could feel safe since it would be hard to single anyone out. The response from the islamic world has been predictable and serves to illustrate the problem even further. But, maybe with enough of these protests, the islamic world will become desensitized to it, and humanity moves forward a little.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 5:59 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 5:48:54 PM

Quote :

"Nobody here seems to understand the point of Draw Mohammad Day. It isn't to be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. It's a form of protest against the recent deaths and threats of death by islamic fundamentalists against people who have drawn mohammad. The idea was to have thousands of people join in so that people could feel safe since it would be hard to single anyone out. The response from the islamic world has been predictable and serves to illustrate the problem even further. But, maybe with enough of these protests, the islamic world will become desensitized to it, and humanity moves forward a little."

The point is that there is no point except to be an asshole. Leave it alone and you won't get hurt. Enough said.

5/20/2010 6:09:00 PM

5/20/2010 6:10:24 PM

When its ok to hang a noose as 'art work' it will be ok to draw pictures of a prophet from a religious group who views said pictures as blasphemy.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 6:11 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 6:10:39 PM

Quote :

"Leave it alone and you won't get hurt."

ROFL - who's going to hurt me?! hahaha I've never heard such sound and fury before.

5/20/2010 6:12:00 PM

I don't know, but apparently thats the whole point behind the facebook group and draw Mohammed day...so that there will be safety in numbers

5/20/2010 6:14:06 PM

Religion of Peace my ass. Even the christians from Egypt are some real toolbags.

5/20/2010 6:15:49 PM

is it? I thought the only point was to offend people!

5/20/2010 6:16:13 PM

Quote :

"is it? I thought the only point was to offend people!"

Thats what I thought too but Carzak has set us all straight ITT.

Quote :

"Religion of Peace my ass. Even the christians from Egypt are some real toolbags."

Here is a response.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 6:17 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 6:16:59 PM

man I find the threats from these idiots to be hillarious. kind of like how a powerless three year old can only yell and scream, that's how they are...

5/20/2010 6:19:59 PM

Quote :

"When its ok to hang a noose as 'art work' it will be ok to draw pictures of a prophet from a religious group who views said pictures as blasphemy."

The issue isn't as much over blasphemy as it is over the RESPONSE to the blasphemy.

In no civilized world will death threats and murders be an acceptable response to a drawing. This is what they are protesting.

5/20/2010 6:20:16 PM

I find Al Sharpton's responses to be quite hilarious. Lets make a 'hang a noose' day to instigate more RESPONSE.

5/20/2010 6:22:51 PM

I doubt you support murder as an appropriate response to a drawing, so you actually agree with the spirit of the protest.

5/20/2010 6:34:13 PM

5/20/2010 6:36:02 PM

So you do agree with me? That it would be ok to do the same thing in protest of the response to hanging a noose?

5/20/2010 6:36:46 PM

No, I don't agree that Hang a Noose Day would be an appropriate response to Al Sharpton making death threats over the use of a noose as artwork. That is not at all analogous to the issue at hand.

5/20/2010 6:57:54 PM

Good luck, carzak.

5/20/2010 7:50:48 PM

Quote :

"No, I don't agree that Hang a Noose Day would be an appropriate response to Al Sharpton making death threats over the use of a noose as artwork. That is not at all analogous to the issue at hand."

What the hell? Why isn't it analogous?

Did Al Sharpton really make death threats over the use of the noose as artwork? If so, then Hang a Noose Day is a perfectly appropriate response. So that if people did it in numbers, they wouldn't really be able to make even one serious death threat.

It is just like in that Fox News opinion piece linked at the top... racism is a no-no, but bashing religion is OK.

5/20/2010 8:36:11 PM

Thousands of muslims threatnening death over centuries is not analogous to Al Sharpton threatening death. Al Sharpton doesn't represent a threat to humanity and the freedom of expression on the scale of the fundamentalist followers of islam. I would support a protest against him, but it should be a proportionate response.

And, it's not "bashing religion" it is protesting violence and murder and standing up for free speech.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 9:03 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 9:03:16 PM

Why does it have to proportionate? Free speech is free speech. People should do it to deter blacks from making threats next time someone decides to hang a noose from their door.

And the differences in time frame, number of followers/blacks, and the scale of the response, they all don't matter. Free speech is free speech.

"protesting violence and murder and standing up for free speech."

Yeah, you can do that by mocking blacks as well. Walk a black street in NYC shouting obscenities against blacks... you will be delivered to an ER looking like spaghetti. So shouldn't we protest that kind of treatment and violence? (by mocking blacks in large numbers all at the same time)

Oh no, but we can't do that, because we can't touch race in this country (especially against blacks)!!!

Fact of the matter is, hypocrisy always calls itself out.


[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 9:10 PM. Reason : ]

5/20/2010 9:09:22 PM

Quote :

"And the differences in time frame, number of followers/blacks, and the scale of the response, they all don't matter."

Yes, they do.

Large numbers of black people who threaten violence due to the display of nooses or other intentionally racist imagery are not currently a major threat to western society that fundamentalist muslims are. And responding to the threat of one black person in the same manner and scale as responding to the threat millions of fundamentalist muslims is an unreasonable and disproportionate reponse. However, I would support some kind of protest against a black person or people within reason if they have a record of violent behavior as a response to racism.

5/20/2010 9:56:10 PM

Quote :

"The point is that there is no point except to be an asshole. Leave it alone and you won't get hurt. Enough said."

Hey negros, sit at the back of the bus and you won't get hurt. Enough said.

Note that I'm not trying to say that the current issue is at all analogous to the level of persecution that black people faced during segregation... but come on, man, you have got to see just how flawed and backwards-thinking your argument is in that post.

Quote :

"When its ok to hang a noose as 'art work' it will be ok to draw pictures of a prophet from a religious group who views said pictures as blasphemy."

Oh, well, we're both on the same page, then, seeing as it is perfectly acceptable to use a noose in genuine artistic expression (For the record, threats and racial intimidation != art). Thus, it must be acceptable to draw blasphemous pictures of a prophet. Glad to see you actually agree with me.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 10:36 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 10:33:31 PM

Quote :

"Large numbers of black people who threaten violence due to the display of nooses or other intentionally racist imagery are not currently a major threat to western society that fundamentalist muslims are."

only our overreaction by people like you is a threat to our society.

5/20/2010 10:46:58 PM

Quote :

"(For the record, threats and racial intimidation != art)"

Ok so drawing offensive pictures of their profit != art. check. We are in agreement.

Quote :

"No, I don't agree that Hang a Noose Day would be an appropriate response to Al Sharpton making death threats over the use of a noose as artwork. That is not at all analogous to the issue at hand."

Yes, actually, it is analogous. In fact its the exact same thing. A noose is deemed offensive to a group of people. An offensive cartoon of a prophet that a group of people hold sacred is also offensive.

Now it was pointed out some where in this thread by several people that everyone needs to suck it up and get the fuck over it. If you are offended by something too bad, its not our job to go around making sure we don't offend people.

So it either applies to everyone or just the group you currently hate the most. Which is it?

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:00 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 10:56:29 PM

^Wow, you really do just come in here to talk out of your ass.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 10:59 PM. Reason : suspicion confirmed, I'm done trying to convince you of anything.]

5/20/2010 10:58:38 PM

You were done here before you posted anything. Take your hate some where else.

Quote :

"I'm done trying to convince you of anything."

You will never convince me to hate someone for their beliefs, the color of their skin, gender, or any other reason you can come up with. You're on your own.


[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:03 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 11:01:37 PM

Pah, acting like you've won. You're too ignorant to realize what your problem is, and it's sad. Go study up on some philosophy of art and then maybe you'll be able to make a meaningful contribution to the discussion.

5/20/2010 11:03:50 PM

Quote :

"Pah, acting like you've won. You're too ignorant to realize what your problem is, and it's sad. Go study up on some philosophy of art and then maybe you'll be able to make a meaningful contribution to the discussion."

There is nothing to win here. Anyone who thinks its ok to intentionally offend a group of people just for the sake of doing it has lost a lot more than this stupid thread. They've lost at being human.

You should go study up on a lot more than just art.

Quote :

"I'm done"

TWW's most famous words which are always followed by another nth pages.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:07 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 11:06:18 PM

Quote :

"Anyone who thinks its ok to intentionally offend a group of people just for the sake of doing it has lost a lot more than this stupid thread."

You've missed the point completely, as I've been trying to tell you. You're too stuck in your own ignorance and preconceived notions to have actually paid any attention to anything I've said.

Drawing Muhammad has nothing to do with hate, and does not just come out of nowhere. It's not hostility for the sake of hostility, there is a reason for it.

Moreover, it's a movement that is guaranteed to succeed if it continues. Like it or not, continued frivolous drawing of Muhammad will gradually desensitize people to it. Eventually, there will be more people who stop caring. That's really the point -- pay attention to this, for once -- the point is to get people to stop being overly sensitive and reactionary, and to get more of our society to grow up and act like reasonable and mature adults. It's far more helpful than hateful.

All right, I'm done for real this time. And stop trying to paint me as a racist, you ignorant fucker.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:14 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 11:13:49 PM

EVENTUALLY PEOPLE WILL STOP CARING.

EVENTUALLY PEOPLE WILL STOP CARING.

EVENTUALLY PEOPLE WILL STOP CARING.

EVENTUALLY PEOPLE WILL STOP CARING.

5/20/2010 11:21:13 PM

Quote :

"You've missed the point completely, as I've been trying to tell you. You're too stuck in your own ignorance and preconceived notions to have actually paid any attention to anything I've said. Drawing Muhammad has nothing to do with hate, and does not just come out of nowhere. It's not hostility for the sake of hostility, there is a reason for it. Moreover, it's a movement that is guaranteed to succeed if it continues. Like it or not, continued frivolous drawing of Muhammad will gradually desensitize people to it. Eventually, there will be more people who stop caring. That's really the point -- pay attention to this, for once -- the point is to get people to stop being overly sensitive and reactionary, and to get more of our society to grow up and act like reasonable and mature adults. It's far more helpful than hateful. All right, I'm done for real this time. And stop trying to paint me as a racist, you ignorant fucker."

You're racist and hateful and calling me ignorant? lol

So not only is the United States the world police but now you want the United States to be the religion police as well? Desensitize people? Did you really just say that?

Mohammed is of no particular importance to anyone that isn't Muslim. This includes you and I. It is not our place to desensitize people to drawings of him. Just because American culture allows people to piss on the American flag, draw inappropriate cartoons of its leaders, etc. doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to follow. Anyone who thinks this is 'ok' is being selfish. You aren't taking any moral high ground here, you are just being petty and further damaging an already fragile relationship with the Arab world. Which you will respond with 'who cares, fuck them' so there is really no point in discussing it. I'd have better luck convincing nazi's that Jews are people too.

Quote :

"the point is to get people to stop being overly sensitive and reactionary, and to get more of our society to grow up and act like reasonable and mature adults."

That sentence is too fucked up to even try and correct for you.

Quote :

"I'm done"

Also, if you are going to say that, then be done with it. No one likes an attention whore.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 11:24:30 PM

Quote :

"It is not our place to desensitize people to drawings of him."

As long as their response to it involves killing us, yes, it is our place to do so.

5/20/2010 11:28:08 PM

Quote :

"As long as their response to it involves killing us, yes, it is our place to do so."

No, it isn't. People give death threats all the time over the stupidest shit. A drawing of Mohammed is but a tiny shard of the reasons why these fanatics hate America.

But hey, if the purpose is truly to desensitize people, then why not throw in the noose, Swastika, confederate flag, and anything else people find offensive. May as well make one big day of desensitization for all.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:32 PM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 11:30:09 PM

It's more than threats, dude.

5/20/2010 11:31:46 PM

You're right, the whole reason why a small group of fanatics wants to blow us all up is because of one silly drawing. We should just hate all Muslims instead.

5/20/2010 11:34:03 PM

I'm saying that people have been killed for drawing mohammad. It is not just empty threats.

5/20/2010 11:38:16 PM

Well fuck it. Lets just nuke the bastards, then we can draw in peace.

5/20/2010 11:53:19 PM

Quote :

"May as well make one big day of desensitization for all."

I'm all for this, except every day.


This whole issue is really just about local vs. global realization of individual vs. group expression.

5/21/2010 1:40:15 AM

There is no right to not be offended.

There is a right to express yourself however you wish.

Quote :

"You've missed the point completely, as I've been trying to tell you. You're too stuck in your own ignorance and preconceived notions to have actually paid any attention to anything I've said."

Welcome to my world, tromboner950. I picture Golovko as a brick wall with hands and a keyboard.

5/21/2010 8:53:07 AM

and that doesn't mean that in that expression, i can't find people to be counterproductive asses and call them out on it.

[Edited on May 21, 2010 at 8:58 AM. Reason : .]

5/21/2010 8:57:51 AM

That's fine until you threaten them with death and/or try to carry it out.

5/21/2010 9:00:04 AM

ding ding ding

5/21/2010 9:00:43 AM

Quote :

"Leave it alone and you won't get hurt."

Spoken like a true jihadi.

5/21/2010 9:03:58 AM

^^^so when one or two people commit murder over a drawing in a population of > 1 billion, you can basically extrapolate that to the rest of that population?

5/21/2010 9:07:59 AM

The commentary is not on Islam itself, but on the crazies that do threaten and act violence in response to the drawing of Muhammad.

5/21/2010 9:10:02 AM

and this is going to somehow de-crazy them? and all the while the rest of the non-offending muslim population should just be cool with it as we try our hardest to offend the incredibly small population you're aiming this at?

5/21/2010 9:12:30 AM

A) yes you should be cool with it because not being cool with it is stupid.
B) No, of course it's not going to un-crazy them. But it does show them that we don't give a shit about their craziness and they can't use threats of violence to trump our rights.

5/21/2010 9:15:34 AM