Quote :

"I think my edge is in my discipline. I do not personally know anyone else that consistently saves the percentage of their income that I do (roughly 75%). In addition my current assets are appreciating well. I do not necessarily believe I will achieve my retirement by age 35, but I am optimistic. "

I don't mean this seriously.... But it would be pretty funny if you died at 32.

2/15/2008 1:09:15 PM

Wait.....you said in the other thread you made 40K after taxes. If you save 75% of it then you live off 10K a year?!?!? No fucking way. Not with a house in Cary + basic expenses.

2/15/2008 9:39:24 PM

The house in cary nets me income, not detracts from it. I have a tenant there. I suppose, to be more accurate, I could revise my previous statement, saying that I instead MAKE 50k a year (a little more perhaps...counting rental income), and save 60%. You could also add, as an additional dynamic that Amelia does not save the same percentage of her salary (which would reduce my estimate even further). But I'm not sure that would count, seeing as how our finances are not 100% integrated yet. It really doesn't matter as I would still net the same.

The point is that I net roughly 30-35k a year. Most of it currently goes into my real estate as reinvestment. After all of my analysis, I think that may be my best bet for retirement (rental income/house appreciation).

The reason I hate a Roth IRA/401k idea, is obviously because it is geared toward a later retirement date. I do not consider retirement with 20 million $ in residual income investments at age 60 to be a more "lavish" retirement than 3 million at age 40. There is an ENORMOUS difference in what I will be capable of enjoying physically at those ages. Bridge is probably all I'll be able to do at age 60, especially considering the shape I am in right now (sports, and the Navy were very hard on me).

Incidentally 10 k a year is roughly what "on campus" college students live on over the year, and they're lifestyle is probably better than mine. They may have less personal space, but some may enjoy the built in company. They get free access to a VERY nice gym and a pool, they get a MUCH better internet connection. Their relative location is very convenient to their daily commutes, etc.

[Edited on February 23, 2008 at 9:44 AM. Reason : Incidentally...]

[Edited on February 23, 2008 at 9:50 AM. Reason : .]

2/23/2008 9:40:51 AM

Putting extra capital towards your house rather than maxing an IRA is a mistake plain and simple.

1) Mortgage interest is tax deductible.

2) Interest on mortgage is usually cheap

3) A roth ira grows tax free

4) We are in a low tax environment right now

5) We will probably be in a higher tax environment when you retire

6) You can withdraw roth contributions penalty free at any time

7) Your house is an illiquid investment

8) A roth IRA is a highly liquid investment

9) A house is a highly non-diversified asset

10) A roth IRA can be arranged to be a highly diversified asset.

11) A diversified roth IRA has a higher long term expected return than your house.

That's eleven inarguable reasons and I could probably go on.

2/23/2008 9:59:33 AM

Quote :

"Most of it currently goes into my real estate as reinvestment."

Can you elaborate on that?

I know you probably just made up the numbers, but for the record, retiring at 60 with 20 million is far easier than retiring at 40 with 3 million.

2/23/2008 11:54:34 AM

Quote :

"8) A roth IRA is a highly liquid investment"

that's the only one i wouldn't agree with. You can take contributions out before 59 1/2 which makes it somewhat liquid but you can't take earnings out penalty free except for a few exception. I would say it's "somewhat" liquid but certainly not highly

[Edited on February 23, 2008 at 1:39 PM. Reason : sp]

2/23/2008 1:39:18 PM

Agreed.

In general "somewhat liquid" would be a better characterization for a roth ira.

However, in his specific situation he's planning on retiring within the next ten years so he will likely have a relatively high contribution to earnings ratio.

When you factor in the price of selling a house quickly (6% to the realtor, the markdown to reach a selling price, moving expenses, purchase price of a new home, etc) that 10% penalty on earnings (but not contributions) is going to look awfully good.

And under special circumstances you may be able to have the penalty waived.

[Edited on February 23, 2008 at 2:10 PM. Reason : a]

2/23/2008 2:07:32 PM

Ok, well as I stated before, although I have good business sense, I am uneducated in the traditional sense with investing (i.e. I have never taken a college level course on investment).

But this is what my research (and I might note...my personally collected empirical data - from my own homes - substantiates it) has taught me thus far.

Single family homes in the Raleigh/Durham/Cary area (specifically the areas that are inbetween those cities...as both of my properties are) appreciate at roughly 8-9% annually. It has been slow lately. Banks estimate their appreciation rate to only be around 6%. Let's assume the market stays bad, or even worsens to 5% (It won't stay bad forever). At any rate, coupled with rental income, that still makes my houses roughly a 13% investment (that figure is a value determined after expected repair expenses, investment protection, preventative maintenance requisites, and so on). I have been told by multiple financial analysts that 13% is a respectable return, and with the current market, probably the best one could expect without getting "lucky".

I have also been informed by multiple people that IRAs, 401ks, and the accessible Life Insurance Plans, all average to be roughly 8-9% over their lifetime. Is this figure accurate?

If so, I would contend that real estate is a better investment for me. It is also important to note that my negotiations for both properties were very successful (leaving me with an instantaneous net worth increase of about 10% of my investment both times). I thank the current market for that.

But anyway, forget getting contributions back out of Roth IRAs. If I only wanted contributions, I wouldn't invest at all. I want the returns from the investment as well, and on a shorter term basis than an IRA would allow.

I may not be able to sell a house on a dime, but I can certainly sell one in several months if I provide even a small motivation for the buyer.

Let me know where I am misinformed.

[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 10:03 AM. Reason : .]

2/25/2008 10:01:49 AM

Quote :

"Single family homes in the Raleigh/Durham/Cary area (specifically the areas that are inbetween those cities...as both of my properties are) appreciate at roughly 8-9% annually."

That seems really really high.

I'd guess more like 5-6%

2/25/2008 10:05:32 AM

Quote :

"roughly a 13% investment (that figure is a value determined after expected repair expenses, investment protection, preventative maintenance requisites, and so on)"

I'm confused by how you got 13 percent ... either you're bringing in a lot of rental income above and beyond what you're paying for the properties (considering you said you were factoring in an appreciation of 5 or 6 percent) or you are adding the two together.

2/25/2008 10:13:10 AM

Quote :

"I am uneducated in the traditional sense with investing (i.e. I have never taken a college level course on investment)."

I have never taken a college level course on investment but I consider myself quite educated. You can easily read up on this stuff to become familiar with the concepts.

Quote :

"Single family homes in the Raleigh/Durham/Cary area (specifically the areas that are inbetween those cities...as both of my properties are) appreciate at roughly 8-9% annually."

I disagree with this. When I did my research last year I found that the annual appreciation for this area was around 4% a year for the previous 5 years.

Quote :

"Let's assume the market stays bad, or even worsens to 5% (It won't stay bad forever). At any rate, coupled with rental income, that still makes my houses roughly a 13% investment (that figure is a value determined after expected repair expenses, investment protection, preventative maintenance requisites, and so on)."

Can you show your work? Are you renting out your house for more than your monthly mortgage? Did you factor in the opportunity cost of down payment, closing costs, selling costs etc?

Quote :

"I have been told by multiple financial analysts that 13% is a respectable return, and with the current market, probably the best one could expect without getting "lucky"."

This is true.

Quote :

"I have also been informed by multiple people that IRAs, 401ks, and the accessible Life Insurance Plans, all average to be roughly 8-9% over their lifetime. Is this figure accurate?"

First off, don't put life insurance plans in a grouping with IRAs/401Ks. Your figure is a little on the low side. 8-9% is a conservative estimate. I think 10.5% is the average compounded return and the arithmetic annual average return is about 12%.

Quote :

"If so, I would contend that real estate is a better investment for me."

Granted, all real estate markets are different, most experts agree on average that the stock market is a much better investment than real estate.

Quote :

"I may not be able to sell a house on a dime, but I can certainly sell one in several months if I provide even a small motivation for the buyer."

Maybe in the current market in Cary, but many people have had their houses on the market for over a year and many people have had to take tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in losses due to depreciation.

[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 10:20 AM. Reason : damn crazy code]

[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 10:21 AM. Reason : ]

2/25/2008 10:20:20 AM

why is anyone still seriously responding to this thread?

2/25/2008 10:55:20 AM

In order to try to convince people they can't get rich quick off of real estate.

2/25/2008 11:02:10 AM

you look just as foolish for seriously entertaining his questions

2/25/2008 11:10:28 AM

They are serious questions and he'll never learn unless someone answers them.

2/25/2008 11:14:42 AM

Thank you David, I really do appreciate all of your answers. I do indeed rent at higher than my mortgage payment, and the amount that I net off that income is greater still. Closing costs have already been negotiated into all of my previous deals, and I hope to do the same with selling costs. Down payments shouldn't count against the investment should they? Aren't they a part of the investment capital? They aren't a loss, certainly.

Ok, specifics and work: My current deal with my tenant is $900 a month (rounded to nearest easy number), or $10800/year. That rent figure is low for the house and the area, but it is because we have elected to waive a portion of the rent (and the deposit fee), in return for two very large interior paint jobs (valued at roughly $3000 total). We also negotiated a few other things in the mix. Ultimately those additional deals boil down to a reduction of my repair costs (actually it comes out to being a slight gain for me, as the preventative repairs are also upgrades and mildly improve the value of my home).

Altogether this year I am making an estimated 14k in equivalent rental income this year from that property.

Beginning appraised value of the home was $136,500 (this was a full appraisal, and this number was verified by multiple value finders, etc.). I purchased the property at 135k (and the seller paid all closing costs, some discount points, and a few other perks were thrown in...in the way of furniture, appliances, a home warranty, etc.). The home was purchased in May 2005. The current estimated value of the home is 161k (as long as my tenant doesn't destroy it ). That is just a hair over 6% by my reckoning.

My mortgage payment on this property is $750/month or about 9gs a year. Of that $750, about $350 of it goes toward the equity.

So...total real estate assets for this property = 14k + appreciation of 10k (estimated) = 24k
Liabilities from this property are (interest, escrows) = $400/month or 5k

Total is assets - liabilities = 19k. Ok so that means my estimates were off. It is roughly a 12% investment for me considering my current property value, although it was better 2 years ago.

I am told however, that on average I should both appreciate better, and be able to make more off tenants (long term).

The downside of course is that this assumes that I never have a vacancy. But then I suppose stock markets are not without risks themselves.

I have no problem with the notion that stocks are better, but they also seem to take more time to understand and predict than real estate. Perhaps they are more diversified, but I feel much more confident in my ability to predict real estate. Businesses rise and fall. I may pick the wrong companies/markets to invest in. Property value will always increase long term...right?

I wouldn't presume to ask TWW which stocks to invest in. Even I can appreciate how silly that would be. But in general, are stocks really the best? Is there nothing consistently better? I hear that gold is supposed to go up in value 15-25% this year. Is that worth looking into? I know next to nothing about investing in bullion. What about betting on the economy of other countries? American dollars seem to be depreciating globally each year. Is that trend supposed to continue?

[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 1:36 PM. Reason : I can't spell.]

2/25/2008 1:35:27 PM

the gold investing period has more or less past, not saying it won't go up more still, but i would definitely not expect it to keep trending like it has....

even though you've obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this I still don't think your chances of being able to retire at 45 even and be able to live decently for 30+ years (assuming average lifespan now, even though it's gonna go up 84 for men born in the early 80s) unless you're ready for a massively lower standard of living

a lot of retirees get bored actually, in part to not having the money to do anything really and in part b/c they no longer have a job occupying most of their day...

David0603 is right

2/25/2008 2:39:33 PM

Quote :

"Closing costs have already been negotiated into all of my previous deals, and I hope to do the same with selling costs."

You can roll closing costs into your mortgage but I'm not sure how you will avoid paying selling costs from whatever profit you make on the house.

Quote :

"Down payments shouldn't count against the investment should they? Aren't they a part of the investment capital? They aren't a loss, certainly."

They are part of the investment capital. They aren't a loss. I was just pointing out that you need to make sure you remember to factor in that amount as opportunity costs and that a down payment such as 10K today is worth much more than 10K 30 years from now or whenever you sell.

Quote :

"The current estimated value of the home is 161k That is just a hair over 6% by my reckoning."

That's correct, although I don't think this will continue. Also, just b/c if appraised for this amount, doesn't mean it will sell for that amount. Was it even appraised or is this just some number you got off of zillow?

Quote :

"My mortgage payment on this property is $750/month or about 9gs a year. Of that $750, about $350 of it goes toward the equity."

Woah, this doesn't sound right. I'd double check this number.

Quote :

"I am told however, that on average I should both appreciate better, and be able to make more off tenants (long term)."

Who told you this? I would be pretty damn happy if I could just get 6% a year from real estate.

Quote :

"I have no problem with the notion that stocks are better, but they also seem to take more time to understand and predict than real estate. Perhaps they are more diversified, but I feel much more confident in my ability to predict real estate. Businesses rise and fall. I may pick the wrong companies/markets to invest in. Property value will always increase long term...right?"

Stocks may take more time to understand, however mutual funds do not. You can get a Russell 5000 fund which is pretty much makes up the entire stock market with 6500+ different holdings. Why do you think you can predict real estate, especially with no education as you mentioned earlier? The stock market will always increase long term plus as mentioned earlier it is much more liquid than real estate.

Quote :

"I wouldn't presume to ask TWW which stocks to invest in. Even I can appreciate how silly that would be. But in general, are stocks really the best? Is there nothing consistently better? I hear that gold is supposed to go up in value 15-25% this year. Is that worth looking into? I know next to nothing about investing in bullion. What about betting on the economy of other countries? American dollars seem to be depreciating globally each year. Is that trend supposed to continue?"

This is why you diversify. I have a natural resource fund that has gold, as well as oil, silver, etc. I also have foreign funds to protect my investments from the declining US dollar. Stock are really the best, but don't try to focus on one sector hoping for 15-25% return. Diversify and then you'll be sure to pick some 15-25% funds while you may have some losing ones to offset the winning ones.

2/25/2008 3:12:47 PM

My numbers might by off, but according to my math less than $200 is going towards the principle

http://tinyurl.com/34vyze

2/25/2008 3:23:40 PM

Yeah, you're right... I'm not sure how he came up with his number but no way that much of your payment is going to principle unless you either financed really short term or are a significant way through the mortgage term.

2/25/2008 3:32:40 PM

hey what happens if i set up some no load IRA thing with t rowe price and then like i wrecked my car and dont have the money to fund it? it was $50/month and they sent me some thing in the mail that said i had to send them 100 for the first month or something

2/25/2008 3:34:21 PM

Last year few years, I know he had been making like 1300 mo. rent on this and putting extra money in the house and actually has more than half paid off.

I know this made some difference, but I do not remember the number off hand.

[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 3:56 PM. Reason : Basically I started this to have ammo to start my Roth. ]

2/25/2008 3:55:55 PM

roth FTW!!!

2/25/2008 3:57:06 PM

which is what the financial planner told me I should be doing.....

I will max it :-)

[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 4:17 PM. Reason : almost time for the trip home.....5 min. Got to love the commute]

2/25/2008 4:16:50 PM

Heh nice. Don't forget you have til April 15 to max it for last year. What do you think of all his real estate talk Amelia? Which financial planner company did you use?

2/25/2008 4:17:27 PM

This will be more or less all you need to know about stocks:

http://www.amazon.com/Bogle-Mutual-Funds-Perspectives-Intelligent/dp/0440506824/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203983905&sr=8-5

It is worth the time to read, and made simple. Unless you want to keep putting all your eggs in one basket.

Couple of other reasons to consider a Roth IRA:

-You can take contributions out after 5 years (not earnings) and even if you get $3m by 40, you need to protect that from inflation.

-You can avoid penalties on early withdrawals if you come up with a distribution plan for scheduled equal amounts over your life expectancy. You will still be taxed though.

You won't really reap the benefits of the stock market if you start taking out money by 40, but I would think that is still better than putting ALL your money into real estate.

2/25/2008 7:13:15 PM

This is really quite simplified but think of it this way.

Stocks have zero utility. You can't eat, wear, or play with a stock. The best you can do is jerk off after viewing your account balance.

Homes have a lot of utility. They keep you warm, provide status, give you a place to store luxury items, etc.

So why would anyone buy a stock over a home? Because in the long run the stock will have a higher return than the home. It has to have a higher expected return or else no one would purchase a stock. EVERYONE (we're assuming rational people) would purchase the good with a higher utility and expected return.


Now, if you purchase a ton of homes and then work as a property manager then perhaps you can outperform the stock market.

But that doesn't factor in the opportunity cost of your time. Each property you own will take time. Time that you could have spent working a different job. Granted, the marginal time added by each property will decrease. This is why people who become property managers own numerous units. In your lifetime it will be difficult for you to own more than ~20 units given your current plan.

This also exposes you to a ton of liability, and unless you possess some type of unique skills that will increase your profit margin higher than the typical property managers you will have a tough time coming out ahead of simply purchasing stocks.

Is it really worth being leveraged up to your ears in debt? A hurricane, housing recession, flood, etc could ruin you.

Why not simply diversify yourself in stocks and utilize the tax laws in place that make them an even more attractive option?

[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 7:47 PM. Reason : a]

[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 7:47 PM. Reason : a]

2/25/2008 7:46:08 PM

Thanks to your advice, I have decided to spend greater amounts of time studying stocks and mutual funds.

It bears mentioning, that my last three experiences with these were very negative (obviously I was doing something wrong). The first time I spent a year learning about the typical stocks you see and can track in the newspaper. I spent a year tracking several stocks, and after a year noticed what I thought was a trend in a local pharmaceutical company called Biotech...you may have heard of them. They fluctuated about 4 dollars a share over the course of a typical month, but each time reaching a slightly higher peak. After a year I decided to buy a few shares of just that one stock to initiate myself (I was planning to add more later, and to buy from other companies as well). In about 8 days, it was revealed that the CEO of the company was indicted for embezzling, and the company went under rapidly. I actually managed to pull the money out when it dropped to $3 a share (it was $.03 a share later that day). I only lost about $600, but it didn't give me any confidence in that investment plan.

My 401k plan, I left entirely up to my company's CFO's recommendations (as to how to ration it out). Granted it was only available to me for 2.5 years, but in that time it had an average investment return of roughly 4% (so either the CFO had no clue what he was doing...likely...or perhaps I was just unlucky).

I once invested in a Prime Rate Trust fund, which was a huge conglomeration of investments, diversified immensely over about 500 stocks. It performed well to begin with, making me almost 9%, but as you can guess, it seems to be linked somewhat to the prime rate, which is not doing that well now. After they failed to maintain the value of their share price, I decided to try a COD instead (I was only 14).

With this experience, you would think I would know what NOT to do, but I fear I will likely have at least a few more negative experiences before I get some positive ones. I would like to think that this is similar to poker, and that I can simply maximize my expected value by making good investments over and over. Some should tank, I'm sure, and others should double or triple me up. Perhaps that way of thinking is what is costing me my success. Am I that far off?

I still don't like Roth (for my situation) but I understand it's what we are all apparently taught to think is the best investment right now. I wonder how many of us truly know it to be, and how many of us simply think it is because it is the latest trend, and because everyone says it's the best.

Oh and according to your calculator, with my remaining mortgage balance, I pay only JUST under $350 to the principal. Remember all that net worth? That's where it is

[Edited on February 26, 2008 at 10:27 AM. Reason : btw]

2/26/2008 10:23:04 AM

1) Invest same amount every month...good or bad market
2) Buy index funds for the S&P 500 or the market as a whole
3) Hold until money is desperately needed or as long as possible otherwise
4) Profit

I'm gonna get flamed for this probably, but you'd be a lot better off buying index funds or low expense mutual funds than attempting to day trade with individual stocks.

Edit: Especially if you're just getting started. If you want to try individual stocks, I wouldn't have more than 10-20% of your total portfolio in them, personally.

[Edited on February 26, 2008 at 10:30 AM. Reason : ]

2/26/2008 10:28:21 AM

Experience #1: You invested in an individual stock. Furthermore, it sounded like a high risk stock. When starting out, invest in mutual funds which are made up of a lot of stocks to diversify risk. I like index funds too. If you insist on investing in stocks start out with blue chips stocks, large cap stocks that aren't going bankrupt any time soon. It also helps to invest in what you know.

Experience #2: By default your money in a 401K is put in a money market account/fixed income/etc so there is basically 0 risk of you losing money, but of course as a result of 0 risk you'll only get a gain comparable to a CD. Don't rely on your company to choose investments for you. Go online, do some research, and find out what kind of asset allocation a guy your age should have and make your 401K match that.

Experience #3: I did a quick search about this and found that this fund is made up of bonds. Not just bonds, but shitty grade B bonds. You shouldn't be investing in bonds at this age and if you insist on bond exposure I would go with triple or double A.

Quote :

"Am I that far off?"

The problem with comparing it to poker, or sports betting as one guy did in another thread, is that investing is slow and steady. You're lucky to get double digits returns in a year, where in poker you can get triple digit returns in a single night.

Quote :

"I wonder how many of us truly know it to be, and how many of us simply think it is because it is the latest trend, and because everyone says it's the best."

Haha. Latest trend? These aren't crocs we're talking about here. It's an investment vehicle used to avoid paying taxes. Maybe you're a big fan of giving Uncle Sam money, but I'm not.

2/26/2008 10:36:39 AM

Quote :

"Oh and according to your calculator, with my remaining mortgage balance, I pay only JUST under $350 "

Can you post the link? 2 years into your mortgage there's no way over 50% of your payments should be going towards principle even if you did prepay some.

2/26/2008 10:38:01 AM

Quote :

"I'm gonna get flamed for this probably, but you'd be a lot better off buying index funds or low expense mutual funds than attempting to day trade with individual stocks. Edit: Especially if you're just getting started. If you want to try individual stocks, I wouldn't have more than 10-20% of your total portfolio in them, personally. "

no one is going to flame youf or that,

I think about 95% of the stock market thread posters that I respect would indicate that this is the path to take if you're not willing to really get into and understand the individual stock markets.

and you can't agrue with with performance of just hanging out with index funds... that's for sure.

2/26/2008 10:38:50 AM

Quote :

"I hear that gold is supposed to go up in value 15-25% this year"

I made 20% in gold last year... but I would listen to the person above who says it may have passed. Although all indicators point to the value of gold increasing (inflation/dollar devaluation, turbulent economic times, etc), it may be worth noting. Also look at other precious metals, copper, silver, etc and the mining companies who extract them.

2/26/2008 10:38:57 AM

Quick question....

I started a roth IRA when I was 22. If I max that out every year until I'm 60....how much should I have saved??

2/26/2008 10:44:13 AM

http://www.bankrate.com

2/26/2008 10:45:18 AM

I made 30% via my natural resource fund IGNCX. I'll probably hold onto the fund but don't think I'll buy any additional shares. Keep in mind Eddie thats one fund I have among many other funds. That one fund probably makes up 5% of my portfolio, although I feel sure some of my other funds invest in this type of stuff as well. Don't go out and buy one specialized mutual fund and get pissed off when it drops 20% in a year.

[Edited on February 26, 2008 at 10:47 AM. Reason : ]

2/26/2008 10:46:46 AM

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/cgi-bin/savings.asp

2/26/2008 10:48:43 AM

Quote :

"I spent a year tracking several stocks, and after a year noticed what I thought was a trend in a local pharmaceutical company called Biotech...you may have heard of them. They fluctuated about 4 dollars a share over the course of a typical month, but each time reaching a slightly higher peak. After a year I decided to buy a few shares of just that one stock to initiate myself (I was planning to add more later, and to buy from other companies as well). In about 8 days, it was revealed that the CEO of the company was indicted for embezzling, and the company went under rapidly. I actually managed to pull the money out when it dropped to $3 a share (it was $.03 a share later that day). I only lost about $600, but it didn't give me any confidence in that investment plan."

In addition to what the others said, you can't rely on past performance as an indicator of the future. Not that you should ignore it completely, but just because it's been going up in the past few years doesn't give any kind of guarantee that it will keep doing so. Especially for a single stock.

2/26/2008 10:50:15 AM

Quote :

"Quick question.... I started a roth IRA when I was 22. If I max that out every year until I'm 60....how much should I have saved??"

It depends on how much the govt allows you to put in per year. Last year it was 4,000... this year it's 5,000. In 20 years, it could be 15,000...who knows.

If you max it out each year, you'll be a multimillionaire. I didn't run any numbers, with with decent return, I'd guess well over $2 mil

2/26/2008 11:23:07 AM

Just checked...its right around $2.5 million. That's not too bad...but hopefully I'll have some other investments that will net me a little bit more (and hopefully the 'ol career takes off).

But its nice to know that if I can keep that Roth IRA up I'll have a few mil saved up.

2/26/2008 11:25:52 AM

The housing bubble has firmly imploded... despite nearly 50% of Americans still believing that their home has not gone down in value. The downward spiral will continue during 2008. This period will be listed as the most catastrophic housing decline in American history, likely exceeding the period of the Great Depression. This has been the first time that the entire nation has experienced a real estate bubble. All speculative bubble events eventually end in a similar painful manner, whether it be with tulips, stocks, precious metals, or homes.

"U.S. home prices lost 8.9 percent in the final quarter of 2007, Standard & Poor's said Tuesday, marking a full year of declining values and the steepest drop in the 20-year history of its housing index."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080226/ap_on_bi_ge/home_prices

2/26/2008 6:47:40 PM

True, and sounds good to me.

Looking to buy my first house around June or so.

2/26/2008 7:27:11 PM

Quote :

"Just checked...its right around $2.5 million. That's not too bad...but hopefully I'll have some other investments that will net me a little bit more (and hopefully the 'ol career takes off)."

what market return is that assuming?

2/26/2008 8:24:33 PM

with those retirement calculators

it's scary what those last few years do

[Edited on February 26, 2008 at 8:30 PM. Reason : shows the importance of startin' early]

2/26/2008 8:27:02 PM

Never ever assume that your property is going to appreciate. At least that is what I have been taught.

2/26/2008 8:31:46 PM

Another book I would recommend is "Hot Commodities" by Jim Rogers. He makes a strong case for investing in commodity indexes, and reasons he think commidities will continue to increase in value for another 10 years, at least. He tells you up front his book is not full of hot tips, but he gives you a really good understanding of the asset class. (And read that John Bogle book on index funds, it's very convincing, and it sounds like you need a little convincing).

It seems like everyone providing advice is pretty much in agreement on how you should be investing for retirement. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do your homework on other ways to invest, but you're getting pretty sound advice. Go to a fee-based financial planner if you still have any doubts.

2/26/2008 9:05:02 PM

Quote :

"what market return is that assuming?"

10%

2/26/2008 9:42:37 PM

is there really any reason for me to open a roth ira if i can put up to 15,000 into a roth 401k every year?

2/26/2008 10:14:20 PM

have you read this thread? or googled what the difference between the 2 are? does your company offer any matching?

start there...why not have both...

2/26/2008 10:16:53 PM

my company does offer matching but i have to stay there 3 years for it to vest

that scares me

i'm not gonna invest 20,000 a year so i'll probably stick with the 401k

2/26/2008 10:46:18 PM