^ They're not protecting your right for free speech, but dont tell the right that. (They = soldiers in Iraq)

And while i may respect the dead, and i'm sorry for your loss, i'm not planning on walking up and thanking any soldier. They are volunteering to do things i dont approve of, and I dont support. That's not to say i dont care that they're dead, or that they deserved it for volunteering (that'd be stupid because they dont), however I'm not going to go around and thank people or support them for participating in things I don't agree with because of that.


[Edited on July 29, 2006 at 4:01 PM. Reason : .]

7/29/2006 3:59:57 PM

I'm glad those soldiers in Iraq fought for me to go to college!

7/29/2006 4:17:07 PM

it simply does not follow that you should logically support your troops NO MATTER WHAT

its fairly insane considering the moral implications. should the population be forced to support our troops if we elect someone truly 100% insane that, say, invades canada? if troops anywhere are doing anything wrong, they simply shouldnt be supported.

7/29/2006 5:54:12 PM

^ they are doing their job...

PS: ^^^, now that ... is a respectable argument. She in no way disrespected anyone which makes me reasonably consider her point of view. Much appreciated.

[Edited on July 30, 2006 at 1:59 PM. Reason : .]

7/30/2006 1:51:02 PM

So were the guards at Auschwitz. At Treblinka. At Dachau. At Sobibór. Support our troops no matter what? Fuck that.

7/30/2006 1:55:07 PM

Our troops don't even have the right to free speech, they are told to censor what they say to the media.

It has also been investigated that a lot of people in the armed forces are recruited despite the fact that they never graduated from college, have severe drug and alcohol abuse histories, as well as criminals backgrounds. However, recruiters find ways to help them pass drug tests, make fake diplomas, and cover their asses.

People in our armed forces get a kick out of killing people, disrespect locals as well as their culture, and not to mention the most recent case of a soldier who helped kill a family so he could rape their daughter.

My dad was in the Army for 30 years and is a retired Command Sgt. Major. He now has PTSD, as well as a slew of other problems all stemming from when he served in the Army. Even today, he still works for the government at the VA Hospital, taking care of soldiers that are young enough to be his sons, that have missing legs, or need complete facial reconstruction because a grenade blew up in their face.

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss, but America's armed forces have left the worst and biggest distaste in my mouth and also, unfortunately, there are too many bad apples that have set poor examples for others, and their poor decision are exposed. If only people could see the good things that Americans do, instead of the bad, but our media is set on making everything look horrible.

7/30/2006 2:24:01 PM

Quote :

"my hundreds of friends"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

7/30/2006 2:51:39 PM

Quote :

"^ they are doing their job..."

i am fairly shocked that someoe was short-sighted enough to actually use this excuse

7/30/2006 2:57:21 PM

Quote :

"People in our armed forces get a kick out of killing people..."

Do other people actually share this opinion..?

7/30/2006 3:32:54 PM

of course they do....they are trained to

7/30/2006 3:47:50 PM

Come on you fucking cockfags what do you hope to achieve?

"Oh my GOD, they're RIGHT! My cousin DID waste his life! That's it, I'm contributing to the Democratic party and telling all my friends!"

S

T

F

U

7/30/2006 3:55:17 PM

thank you to all the soldiers on here for defending my freedom as well as the freedom of others. unfortunately, some of these people use that freedom to insult you, but thats their problem.

7/30/2006 4:08:26 PM

no, thats their right

7/30/2006 4:09:12 PM

if i found a soldier that actually did protect my rights, like a WW2 vet, id thank them.

7/30/2006 4:10:39 PM

The only group threatening any of my freedoms in recent memory is the United States' Congress.

[Edited on July 30, 2006 at 4:11 PM. Reason : ///]

7/30/2006 4:11:15 PM

actually we entered wwII because of a pissing contest with Japan over trade rights in China, and the fact that we cut off their oil supply

stop being such a fucking douchenozzle, not everything is a springboard for your politicial opinions

7/30/2006 4:12:04 PM

12/07/41

7/30/2006 4:12:51 PM

i dont care how we entered, our presence was important to the victory

[Edited on July 30, 2006 at 4:14 PM. Reason : fhq]

7/30/2006 4:14:47 PM

and the conflict was largely stuff we could have avoided if we really wanted

WWII vets didn't protect your right to free speech either

notice i didnt say i dont support what they did, but still

"These guys aren't protecting my freedoms, but obviously those guys from the really really popular war back in the day were!!!11"

7/30/2006 4:16:35 PM

not true. the war would have played out very differently, germany may not have turned on russia at the same time they did (had we assured them we werent going to be involved). if hitler took europe, if follows that there would be a huge long term risk to us.

[Edited on July 30, 2006 at 4:23 PM. Reason : 234]

7/30/2006 4:20:27 PM

germany got pretty close to being able to attack the continental united states

7/30/2006 4:21:42 PM

Ok, just wow, I'm not a compulsive poster but I have to respond to Natalie’s comments. Now, far be it from me to question the experience of a 19 year old, and no disrespecting the Sergeant Major, but being a college graduate, on my second tour in Iraq with the Army, I think I have a pretty good grasp on reality.

ANYONE who has worked extensively with Soldiers will know that your average E-4 on the ground, be he an Army Specialist, a Marine Lance Corporal is neither a dogmatic, simplistic, baby killing rapist nor a blind patriot eager to give up his life to defend ourselves from the terrorist horde. He is generally a realist, who may or may not understand how we got into Iraq (do any of us really beyond hyperactive conspiracy theorists?) nor is he particularly excited about being there, but for whatever reason, he chose the military and is going to do his job, because that is the right thing to do. He does not enjoy killing, but will do it when he has to (and only a small percent will ever have to) and may or may not feel remorse. It does not mean he does not care about human life, but he will do what he has to do in order to protect the man to his left and his right. They are the real reasons he fights, not politics. He is not there to make political decisions or to justify a particular party's platform; he is there to execute the LAWFUL orders of his superiors.

That being said, as Soldiers they AND THEIR LEADERSHIP must also be held up to the harsh light of scrutiny and disciplined accordingly when they exceed their charge and commit acts inconsistent with the values of professional warriors and the citizens of the United States who they represent.

Many may disagree with the concept of military force, I respect your beliefs if they are passionately held and well thought out. Many may disagree with the use of military force in this particular engagement; speak your mind for that is what this country is all about. However, do NOT do the Marines, Sailors, Airmen, and Soldiers . . . MY Soldiers, the disrespect of attempting to use them as a political football. They know the realities of life and death far more than many of you ever do and for that much, they deserve that respect, not as two dimensional projections of your personal feelings about politics, but as flawed human beings (as we all are) doing a difficult job to the best of their abilities.

I apologize for the long post but sometimes there are things that need to be said.

7/30/2006 4:59:29 PM

^spot on, sir, spot on.

7/30/2006 5:02:53 PM

Quote :

"he is there to execute the LAWFUL orders of his superiors."

your argument fails right here. just becuase it is currently lawful does not make it right.

Quote :

"MY Soldiers, the disrespect of attempting to use them as a political football."

sounds like youre the one invoking politics. last i checked, president bush uses the troops as political background/stagery just about every week.

Quote :

"They know the realities of life and death far more than many of you ever do "

becuase they kill people?

Quote :

"He is generally a realist, who may or may not understand how we got into Iraq"

Most americans agree that the war was a mistake. Oh and the soldier who doesnt know why they are killing is gonna be judged very harshly by his Christian God.





[Edited on July 30, 2006 at 5:27 PM. Reason : sdfg34gs]

7/30/2006 5:17:16 PM

Mr. Numbers,

Quote :

"just becuase it is currently lawful does not make it right."

According to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, a Soldier has the obligation to disobey any order that he feels is wrong or immoral. That is by DEFINITION unlawful. Simply put "morally wrong" means unlawful. Quick Google search turned this up:

Quote :

"The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809[890].ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ. http://omjp.org/ArtLarryDisobey.html"

Remember, it was American MILITARY tribunals that set the precident in Nuremburg that "I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse.

Quote :

"sounds like youre the one invoking politics. last i checked, president bush uses the troops as political background/stagery just about every week."

My post is completely non-political. I challenge anyone to determine my opinion on the war or my political affiliation by my post. Don't be so narrow-minded as to pigeon hole me based on your assumptions. I happen to say "MY Soldiers" because I happen to be in a position of leadership and take that responsibility VERY seriously.

Quote :

"becuase they kill people?"

Yes but like I said, the vast majority of Soldiers / Marines will never be put in a position of actually having to pull the trigger. So what about the rest? Well, there is the simple fact of observing a culture so vastly different from the insulated materalistic society of the United States is a culture shock in and of itself. Finally, your perspective on the world changes drastically when you realize that the IED that just blew up 10 feet from your truck was no accident, and that someone, who you have never met, hates you so badly that he wants you dead. There is a tremendous difference between that and your, for lack of a better term, "run of the mill" near death experience.

Quote :

"Most americans agree that the war was a mistake. Oh and the soldier who doesnt know why they are killing is gonna be judged by harshly by his Christian God."

Assumptions man, they're making an ass out of you, thankfully not me. To assume that all Soldiers are flag waiving patriotic members of the Christian Coalition is precisely the sort of ignorance my post was meant to point out. Go talk to a Soldier, and then another, and then another. Don't kiss his ass, don't call him a baby killer, just ask him questions the way you'd want to be asked questions. Some are going to confirm your suspicions, some will really surprise you. Don't listen to me though, I wouldn't know shit, I'm just a blind Bush supporting baby killing evangelist.

[Edited on July 30, 2006 at 5:38 PM. Reason : .]

7/30/2006 5:37:31 PM

Quote :

"According to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, a Soldier has the obligation to disobey any order that he feels is wrong or immoral. That is by DEFINITION unlawful. Simply put "morally wrong" means unlawful."

that almost made me laugh.

Quote :

"There is a tremendous difference between that and your, for lack of a better term, "run of the mill" near death experience."

I have no clue what you are talking about

Quote :

"Assumptions man, they're making an ass out of you"

7/30/2006 5:44:58 PM

Quote :

"I have no clue what you are talking about"

On that we agree.

7/30/2006 5:50:03 PM

Quote :

"He is generally a realist, who may or may not understand how we got into Iraq""

we also agree there are people in iraq who dont understand why we are there, aka, people who just like to kill.

7/30/2006 5:52:28 PM

^ Man, I am so sorry, I didn't realize I was getting into an argument with someone with the umm, mental agility, you obviously posess. For that reason, I respectfully withdraw from this discussion.

[Edited on July 30, 2006 at 6:01 PM. Reason : .]

7/30/2006 6:00:02 PM

Quote :

"People in our armed forces get a kick out of killing people, disrespect locals as well as their culture"

take substitute 'locals' with 'neighbors', and you can apply that statement to a decent number of civilians.

7/30/2006 6:08:17 PM

it often astounds me to see how a person can take a stance with very limited and/or jaded information.

as for a comment earlier, many of us do not specifically volunteer to perform duties that are currently criticized. many do not volunteer to go kill and commit atrocities. soldiers have historically put themselves through piles of shit and given up comforts to serve their country. their leadership decides the best use of these soldiers. do not criticize a soldier or those serving their country. If there is a proper course of action, apply your concerns to the politicians making the decisions.

7/30/2006 6:45:07 PM

Quote :

"do not criticize a soldier or those serving their country. "

I agree. The nazi's were truly noble agents of genocide.

7/30/2006 6:53:03 PM

i find it hard to compare an American soldier and Nazi soldier.

7/30/2006 7:06:32 PM

I find you unimaginative and naive.

7/30/2006 7:10:12 PM

^^ i didnt compare anything.

7/30/2006 7:21:47 PM

Quote :

"I agree. The nazi's were truly noble agents of genocide."

That's what I was trying to say at the end of page 1.

7/30/2006 8:27:56 PM

Quote :

"i find it hard to compare an American soldier and Nazi soldier. FroshKiller: I find you unimaginative and naive. "

haha

7/30/2006 9:25:57 PM

JCASHFAN,

How are you on TWW in Iraq? Are they not censoring what you post?

7/31/2006 4:38:30 AM

Quote :

"Finally, your perspective on the world changes drastically when you realize that the IED that just blew up 10 feet from your truck was no accident, and that someone, who you have never met, hates you so badly that he wants you dead."

Ummm, maybe, just maybe, because you are a foreign soldier invading his country?

OMG HOW CAN SOMEONE HATE ME SO BADLY... I AM GOING TO CRY... I AM ONLY HERE TO HELP HIM... AND I NEVER EVEN MET HIM...

7/31/2006 5:35:56 AM

Don't forget to thank the contract workers--mostly retired special operations--they are doing some of the most dangerous work.

7/31/2006 8:42:57 AM

no but i have talked to one that is overseas

7/31/2006 8:43:54 AM

here come words so spare the posts:

all the far-left jackasses on here who are so in love with unalienable rights might try to be a little more consistent with who you apply those rights to. To 'Save Darfur' you write this to President Bush: "During your first year in the White House, you wrote in the margins of a report on the Rwandan genocide, "Not on my watch." I urge you to live up to those words by using the power of your office to support a stronger multi-national force to protect the civilians of Darfur."

I couldn't agree more with the statement, but what you don't understand is that a multi-national effort yields equal results to Iraq. In fact, it would probably result in the deaths of more american troops (im speaking in percentages here) to fight this genocide, because the Rwandans are a much more desparate people than the Royal Guard, willing to die rather than return to the lifestyle of those they atrociously murder.

Yet the genocide in Rwanda comes a decade after confirmed and noted genocide from within the borders of a Saddam Hussein-controlled Iraq. Did you so easily forget the media (your liberal allies) reporting the unearthing of dozens of mass graves at the onset of American occupation? The truth is the weapon of mass destruction was Saddam Hussein, much like the Rwandan government now. It doesn't necessarily excuse President Bush's framing of the war based on shoddy intelligence, and I would have much rather preferred for him to have convinced Congress by informing them what the true reason was--removing a tyrannical dictator with direct link to Osama Bin Laden, which we are now finding to be true.

Yet, here we are actually arguing whether we should thank troops. Hell no, they aren't the reason that we have the opportunity to go to college. Our forefathers who set up this country under the most effective government the world has ever seen are the reason you go to college. And if what you learned in college, as LadyWolff seems to have, is that you are not part of an aggregate than YOU are the one who does not grasp the nature of these unalienable rights.

If you don't thank the men and women who serve because they subscribe to the nature of our government by serving under the direction of the leader of an aggregate that they represent, then try thanking them because there are enough that keep you from having to turn tail and run to Canada when you get drafted to do the same.

7/31/2006 9:21:07 AM

^^^

hey, let's call a spade a spade, ok?

the contract workers (truck drivers, security, body guards, construction, fire fighters etc) are there FOR THE MONEY.

there is no disputing that.

if they want to risk their lives in the process, that's their prerogative, so let's not pretend they are there out of some compassionate desire to help the iraqis.

hey, if you can earn $100,000+ as a FRIGGIN TRUCK DRIVER, i think compassion or a desire to help is NOT on your list of reasons at all.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 9:24 AM. Reason : ]

7/31/2006 9:23:49 AM

^Your ignorance is overwhelming. You define contract workers as truck drivers, security body guards, construction etc because this is what the media has talked about. But, as I mentioned, there are special operations (navy seals, army special forces, air force recon etc) retirees who are working for the government in the most dangerous locales. You assume that they don't have compassion for the Iraqis because you dont know who they really are, if you still stand by that comment, I'll pass it on to my father...im sure he'll appreciate it.

At the least, inform yourself about what you are replying to.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 9:37 AM. Reason : .]

7/31/2006 9:36:33 AM

My mom has a co-worker whose husband does some sort of contracting work for Caterpillar and he was over in Iraq for 6 months, only to make tons of money. They didn't send him, or ask him to go, he volunteered for the money.

7/31/2006 11:21:06 AM

solid comment...totally irrelevant

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 11:24 AM. Reason : .]

7/31/2006 11:22:20 AM

Quote :

"The truth is the weapon of mass destruction was Saddam Hussein"

and an apple is a telephone

a pony is a bike

7/31/2006 11:41:08 AM

sorry lilwolf

7/31/2006 11:54:10 AM

Quote :

"he volunteered for the money."

wha?

7/31/2006 11:58:56 AM

Quote :

"and an apple is a telephone a pony is a bike"

You're getting closer to assimilation with each example.

7/31/2006 12:22:19 PM