Are any of you attending any kind of protests?

If this was at our doorsteps what would you do? Would you fight? For either side?

7/30/2014 10:14:10 AM

If someone were in my neighborhood firing a gun at my house, and hiding behnd my neighbor's house, I'd call my neighbor and tell him to GTFO and then start hammering the person doing the shooting with whatever I've got.

At least until the Wake Co. sheriff's office shows up and takes me away.

See, this whole analogy doesn't work because we have a government that by and large prevents stuff like this from happening. Where is Palestine's government in trying to control Hamas?

7/30/2014 10:20:19 AM

7/30/2014 10:32:20 AM

edit that shit out dude

7/30/2014 10:39:27 AM

WTF?

This is about the only work-safe forum on this site. Let's keep it that way.

7/30/2014 10:41:18 AM

Quote :

"Its good to know that a constant string of non-stop rocket attacks don't count for anything as long as they don't kill anyone. Following that logic, I can come over to some of your houses and fire a gun at you non-stop, and you won't be mad, call the police, or retaliate as long as none of the bullets hit you, right?"

Well if my response was to murder you, your family, your friends, and anyone walking their dog near you, that would be justified?

Is it justified for a 220lb man to beat his wife mercilessly, if she just slaps him?

Seems like people who believe Israel isn't culpable for the deaths of innocents must also believe it's okay to beat your wife if she's a little rude. Israel knows that murdering Palestinians won't end this conflict, it hasn't worked in 60 years, and there's no sign of it working now. They must have other motivations than believing it's helping to end this conflict.

7/30/2014 12:05:38 PM

Before and after satellite images of areas of Gaza.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/matthewtucker/before-and-after-satellite-images-of-israels-operation-prote?s=mobile





So precise!

7/30/2014 12:34:41 PM

Quote :

"Well if my response was to murder you, your family, your friends, and anyone walking their dog near you, that would be justified?"

Maybe? Depends on the context. Perhaps my family voted me to be in charge and helped me get the guns, my friends drove me over to your place and showed me which bushes to hide in while I was blasting at you, and the woman walking her dog cheered me on because she hates the way you landscape. But I sure wouldn't expect you to just sit there and take it, especially in the absence of law enforcement.

7/30/2014 12:37:57 PM

Sayer is trolling, he's just doing it very poorly

Quote :

"Sayer now with sarcasm 9102 Posts user info edit post no i'm just arguing against you guys because this place is really boring when everyone agrees with each other and playing devils advocate is fun [Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:16 PM. Reason : the debil!]"

7/30/2014 12:56:02 PM

Quote :

"It's Israel's choice to continue their retaliatory bombing campaign."

I ask this about once each page and no one has yet even attempted an answer:

What choice should they make that A) shows their citizens that they're not ok with the fact that their communities are being rained upon with rockets wand B) is seen as a proportionate response by the world community?

Posters in here seem to think the Hamas rockets pose no threat to Israeli life. Why don't you go live in Sderot where the red alert is going off almost all night long every night, and everyone has 15 seconds to scramble into the bomb shelters? 2 nights ago there were 45 rockets. IN ONE NIGHT. How would you respond?

7/30/2014 12:59:15 PM

No trolling would be making bullshit statements just to get an emotional response from you.

I'm not making bullshit statements. I'm arguing the valid other side of the arguments that you and many others in this thread are making. I'm not going to leave bdmazur to make these arguments by himself.

Unless of course you literally believe Hamas and the other various Palestinian militant groups have done absolutely nothing to provoke or antagonize Israel in the half-century they've been hanging out near each other... in which case none of us can help you.

[Edited on July 30, 2014 at 1:03 PM. Reason : .]

7/30/2014 1:02:31 PM

7/30/2014 1:32:12 PM

Quote :

"I ask this about once each page and no one has yet even attempted an answer: What choice should they make that A) shows their citizens that they're not ok with the fact that their communities are being rained upon with rockets wand B) is seen as a proportionate response by the world community?"

i've responded to this at least once

7/30/2014 1:32:37 PM

Quote :

"Unless of course you literally believe Hamas and the other various Palestinian militant groups have done absolutely nothing to provoke or antagonize Israel in the half-century they've been hanging out near each other... in which case none of us can help you."

No one here has come remotely close to saying that Hamas isn't trying to provoke israel, or hasn't killed innocents.

But the response they wish to provoke doesn't have to be retaliatory bombing. Why should it be? That's the most rote, simplistic response, and in this particular case, is extremely self-defeating. You can argue that by massacring so many innocent Palestinians, Israel is provoking Hamas to continue further bombings in the future, because this is what they're doing.

7/30/2014 2:00:26 PM

Crowded Gaza shopping center hit killing at least 16 and wounding 150.

http://www.wral.com/official-13-killed-as-shells-hit-gaza-un-school/13851592/

7/30/2014 2:22:40 PM

Of course, the great irony is that Israel received statehood in part due to actions that would be classically defined as terrorism by today's standards.

Peel away all the bullshit terms like "terrorism" (terms that are designed to legitimize the actions from one actor while condemning the actions of another), and this entire conflict can be seen for what it is:

A struggle for independence. One side is fighting for independence, and the other side is fighting for continued colonization.

Of course, this narrative would never poll well with Americans, as it is ingrained in our culture to respect the right for independence. So the discussion naturally shifts to label Palestinians as terrorists. That label more readily bends the American consciousness to complacent acceptance of the actions of our political ally.

7/30/2014 2:30:07 PM

Quote :

"Of course, the great irony is that Israel received statehood in part due to actions that would be classically defined as terrorism by today's standards"

I've been wondering about this myself, although it's not material to modern day events.

But it's interrsting how poltiicians are so readily willing to accept the UNs partition of an entire country, taking half of Palestine to give to Jewish people, but these same people would oppose anything and everything the UN does today.

The way Israel was formed would never, ever fly today, based on conservative or progressive ideologies.

7/30/2014 3:03:44 PM

is bdmazur okay with going back to the UN partition plan?

7/30/2014 3:15:02 PM

From one of the propaganda videos, the line against that is that Israel tried to concede land in the 90s, but leaders of Palestine at the time said they don't want land, they want Israel gone. So it doesn't matter if Israel gave the land back, it wouldn't fix the problem. And even if Palestinian/Hamas/whoever did agree to revert to those borders, it doesn't guarantee Israel's safety because then outsiders could sneak into the new Palestinian lands and then start attacking Israel.

So Israel's best option is to keep the territories militarized and to remain on a war footing because their arab neighbors will never accept them no matter what they do.

7/30/2014 3:23:19 PM

Israel was stupid for conceding anything after 1967.

They deserve to get fucked for that alone.

7/30/2014 4:12:57 PM

Girl in Gaza live-tweeting the war. Doesn't sound like she's acting as a Hamas shield.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709143/The-Gaza-teens-desperate-plea-twitter-I-survived-3-wars-I-think-enough.html

7/30/2014 5:07:32 PM

Still waiting for an answer from bdmazur:

Quote :

" ANSWER ME THIS: Is the fear of Hamas' potential military force a valid reason for Israel to be engaged in Gaza?"

7/30/2014 5:41:35 PM

Hard to say what will never happen. Very bold to use never and always in aa country that has exiated 70 years. Once the people who remember the land before israel a r re diied off then it will be more likely to accept israel. Common sense right?

7/30/2014 7:38:53 PM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel

'World stands disgraced' as Israeli shelling of school kills at least 15
• UN condemns IDF attack on sleeping children as violation of international law
• Strike on crowded market in Shujai'iya during ceasefire kills 17
• Death toll now more than 1,300 after three weeks of fighting

Thank God there is someone to kill those 15 young terrorists... and they did when the terrorists least suspected... they were sleeping!

Bravo!

7/30/2014 9:00:39 PM

So no blame for militants firing rockets and mortars from schools and hospitals?

No surprise, coming from you

7/30/2014 9:16:21 PM

Huh? You are implying I blamed Israel in my previous post... clearly, you must be hallucinating.

If you read again, you will see that I commended Israel for killing 15 would-be suicide bombers.

7/30/2014 9:40:19 PM

How does it feel waking up as an american taxpayer knowing that you are killing children everyday? Shouldnt feel much different considering its been happening for 13 years sttaight now.

7/31/2014 10:57:39 AM

plenty of people still have no problem with how many innocent civilians died in Iraq, and we had an even worse moral justification than Israel. as long as we can export violence through guns and money, or send other people to fight in wars without any risk of being drafted ourselves, everyone will continue to sleep just fine.

7/31/2014 11:13:42 AM

^^ so america has only been killing children for 13 years troll? check your math.

7/31/2014 11:17:22 AM

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/28/debunking_the_myths_about_gaza_the_truth_behind_israeli_and_palestinian_talking_points/

Here's an article that alleges it's Israel that has been actively undermining peace, not the Palestinians. It mentions some Palestinians killed before the 3 Israelis were attacked.

7/31/2014 1:29:51 PM

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/world/middleeast/fighting-political-islam-arab-states-find-themselves-allied-with-israel.html

7/31/2014 1:43:25 PM

^^ Israeli journalist who argues the same thing. Long conversation, but worth a listen:

http://youtu.be/TNXhlL3-5Uw

7/31/2014 1:48:10 PM

Holy shit, these people: http://www.wral.com/share/page/1896337/?id=13855336

7/31/2014 2:37:36 PM

Quote :

"So no blame for militants firing rockets and mortars from schools and hospitals?"

Is there evidence that militants were firing rockets from this school?

Because this quote seems to imply that this was a designated UN shelter:

Quote :

"The UN said its officials had repeatedly given details of the school and its refugee population to Israel."

I don't think that militants would be firing rockets from a designated UN shelter.

7/31/2014 3:30:28 PM

Years straight. Check yo reading troll

7/31/2014 3:44:38 PM

If you're referring to the war in Afghanistan, it hasn't been 13 years yet dumbass.

7/31/2014 4:25:02 PM

Quote :

"Is there evidence that militants were firing rockets from this school?"

I don't know about that school in particular, but it's SOP for Hamas to store weapons in and fire weapons from schools and hospitals.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/22/hamas-hiding-rockets-in-schools-children-playgrounds-israel-and-un-agency-say/
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/hamas-may-have-fired-rockets-that-hit-unrwa-school-killing-17/2014/07/24/

7/31/2014 4:29:24 PM

And it's SOP for Israel to bomb hospitals and schools they know to be full of refugees.


Question: What's more grotesque? Storing weapons at a refugee camp full of civilians? Or intentionally bombing a refugee camp full of civilians?


The "hamas stores weapons underneath civilians has been exhausted so many times, that the media doesn't even bother verifying if these claims are even true, yet IDF officials say so, and everyone believes them.

IDF has shelled so many UN schools and refugee camps that it is impossible to claim that it is an accident EVERY.SINGLE.TIME.


If a refugee camp is suspected of storing weapons, then go in there and confiscate them. Blowing the entire neighborhood full of civilians to the ground because of the suspicion of weapons storage is fucking barbaric. Israel has the technology, the manpower, and the international approval to treat this as a tactical operation, and yet they continually use disproportionate force.


Tunnels. Tunnels. Tunnels. That's all we hear from official Israeli mouthpieces. Yet entire neighborhoods are blown to the ground in an attempt to "close off tunnels."


You have to be a goddamn imbecile to believe that the only objective on this mission is to close tunnels and remove weapons.

7/31/2014 4:51:58 PM

Quote :

"You have to be a goddamn imbecile to believe that the only objective on this mission is to close tunnels and remove weapons."

Who is claiming that?

Quote :

"And it's SOP for Israel to bomb hospitals and schools they know to be full of refugees. "

Bullshit. My SOP claim is far closer to reality.

7/31/2014 4:55:08 PM

does this section not have a moderator?

7/31/2014 6:40:00 PM

For what, that picture?

7/31/2014 6:44:42 PM

72 hour ceasefire will begin Friday morning hopefully with an extension afterwards.

Leaders will be meeting in Cairo to negotiate further terms for disengagement.

7/31/2014 8:37:58 PM

1 hour into the ceasefire the Palestinians will launch one of their little balsa wood shitsticks.

7/31/2014 10:55:09 PM

One of the terrorists killed at the "UN School" missile storage site

8/1/2014 12:01:20 AM

Quote :

"I don't think that militants would be firing rockets from a designated UN shelter."

And why is that? Because it doesn't fit what you want to believe? These are locations that essentially everyone knows you aren't supposed to hit, unless you want to look bad. Hamas wants to make Israel look bad; so where the fuck do you think Hamas goes and hides? Oh, and the fact that if Israel doesn't want to look bad, it makes it a completely safe haven in which to hide, and even from which to fire rockets, doesn't hurt either.

Hmmm, I can stay over here and be shot at, or I can go over here and be safe, maybe even shoot from here, and if Israel shoots at me, the whole world will bitch about them and not me... which will I do?

Quote :

"If a refugee camp is suspected of storing weapons, then go in there and confiscate them."

At which point the entire world then complains "oh, look at Israel, invading Gaza again in another act of aggression!" Israel can't please people like you, no matter what they do, so they just figure they'll take the route that offers their troops the least danger.



And, btw, I say all this as someone who thinks Israel has gone off the deep end and needs to stop its ethnic cleansing of non-Jews.

8/1/2014 12:54:45 AM

Israel went off the deep end a LONG time ago. It just took people like you a couple thousand dead Palestinians to finally admit it. Seriously, just re-read this thread from page 10 or so. It's the same apologists repeating the same talking points over and over again. The only thing that changes is the number of dead Palestinians, and the year of the posts.

Quote :

"At which point the entire world then complains "oh, look at Israel, invading Gaza again in another act of aggression!" Israel can't please people like you, no matter what they do, so they just figure they'll take the route that offers their troops the least danger."

So they value the life of their soldiers more than they do the life of Palestinians? Maybe they should drop the whole "most moral army in the world" bullshit then, eh?



And do you know why people like me would scream, "oh look at Israel, invading Gaza again in another act of aggression!" ???

It's because they have occupied and seiged Gaza for decades. Palestinians in Gaza have no country, have no rights, have no sovereignty, and have no access to the outside world. If Israel treated them like citizens, this entire crisis would simply be a law inforcement issue. But they don't treat them like citizens. They treat them like prisoners, and it should come as no surprise that these prisoners riot from time to time.

Quote :

" Hamas wants to make Israel look bad; so where the fuck do you think Hamas goes and hides?"

--arronburro

Quote :

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children"

-- Golda Meir



Nobody is forcing the IDF to pull the trigger on UN schools filled with civilians. Looks like you (and many users like you) have bought into this line of thinking full bore. It's interesting that you consider this an ethnic cleansing, but are still willing to blame the victim (or at the very least, give legitimacy to this repeated claim).

[Edited on August 1, 2014 at 1:32 AM. Reason : ]

8/1/2014 1:17:06 AM

"Hamas hides behind civilians!"

When does the number of dead Palestinian's get too high until people stop buying this excuse?

1,000?

2,000?

3,000?

4,000?

5,000?

1.5 million?

At what point does the excuse of "Hamas hides behind civilians" lose its value? If Israel destroyed every member of Hamas tomorrow, but took out all of Gaza in the process, would they still offer up this same excuse?

8/1/2014 1:55:49 AM

Quote :

"1 hour into the ceasefire the Palestinians will launch one of their little balsa wood shitsticks."

During the day leading up to the ceasefire, Hamas fired over 90 rockets.

Within half and hour of the ceasefire beginning, red alerts went off in 4 different Israeli cities.

Minutes before the ceasefire began, 3 rockets landed and 6 more were intercepted, all aimed at Ashdod (one of the most hit cities along with Sderot).

Now it's been over an hour since the ceasefire took effect, so far nothing reported from either side as far as I've heard.

8/1/2014 2:14:43 AM

This is a graph I found at BBC News. The first thing I take from it is that the rocket attacks have slowed, meaning the operation has been achieving at least a part of its goals. The second thing to look at is that the Israel strikes against Gaza have lessened when rocket attacks lessen. If the rockets stopped altogether, imagine what the chart could look like.



[Edited on August 1, 2014 at 2:24 AM. Reason : -]

8/1/2014 2:23:19 AM

So much for that 72 hour cease-fire

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

8/1/2014 7:22:15 AM